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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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We could actually add extra plating to that armor as its only 0.2 so doesn't kick us to 5 EP.
Question is how much that impact vehicle handling and movement when they should leave the battlefield when their vehicle got destroyed. (extra armor should make survival somewhat more likely at least).
 
Skjadir said:
My armor of choice of vehicle (or something in that direction):
Medium
Power
-EP 2.626
-Slots 5
-Autotargeters 0.5 EP
-Enhanced Sensors x3 0.6 EP (max)
-Free slots
= 3.725 EP
Problem with the last slot is that it kicks the armor to 5 EP due to 0.025
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I think we want a 2 EP armour. It seems that due to the way our Bonesinging works that at the low end Light (semi-)powered armour is usually strictly superior to unpowered armour, particularly as it seems to come with Voidsealing for free.

If we can I'd just buy our allies' versions. It's not perfect but it's better than what we have.

I just don't think we have a strong use case for our current Brigantine design. We know it's not bad, but it's not great either and I don't see a need to stockpile it. I really think this is an additional reason not to build a forge to make it.
 
Candesce said:
Cut the standard crewman sidearm down to a plasma pistol instead of a spike carbine and we free up 2 EP per crew, btw. I think we can agree to do that.
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Our plasma weapons require the shooter to be in power armor so that probably eliminates using these with Brigandine. We'd either need to design a new armor that's powered but cheap or upgrade everyone to VGA
Consequently, deployment of these weapons is restricted to forces in various forms of power armor, whose more heavily insulated gauntlets can protect the operator from the weapon's heat.
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@Mechanis Is Hellgun/Hotshot mods for Starlances a viable development line? Are our exotic guns open to development and tweaking in general?

"Very hot, use with armor only" thing is cool. I kinda want it on more guns, ngl.
 
Alratan said:
I just don't think we have a strong use case for our current Brigantine design. We know it's not bad, but it's not great either and I don't see a need to stockpile it.
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I think it's good enough until we've started developing proper military hulls for our vehicles. We'd want to redesign everything then anyways.

Not sure we'd need a factory to supply enough till then, but eh. It'll save a BAP on starting production for the new armor.

LOLROFL said:
Our plasma weapons require the shooter to be in power armor so that probably eliminates using these with Brigandine.
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This is in the context of "how much are we willing to pay for semi-powered or powered crew armor," yes.
 
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LOLROFL said:
Our plasma weapons require the shooter to be in power armor so that probably eliminates using these with Brigandine. We'd either need to design a new armor that's powered but cheap or upgrade everyone to VGA
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That was in response to using the proposed armor (which is power armor).
So take the rifle, give them for the vehicle's optimized armor and give them a 2EP plasma weapon.
 
dgr11897 said:
You have it backwards. The arrows are in the direction you're accelerating, which the G-force experienced is opposite to, so by accelerating you down you're actually getting pulled up.
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Yup. It's so dangerous because blood pools into the brain and bursts the brain vessels, which is way less than ideal.

Unfortunately, you can't weaponize that, because you don't have anything to crush the people against in that direction. You'd just be popping people up into the sky, which while hilarious, is of lesser effectiveness.

Candesce said:
I'm pretty sure it does, yes. One of the reasons I suggested a heavy naval gravity amplifier on that light cruiser design we won't be using.
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I'm not sure I understand the point of that one TBH.

All these gravity weapons only work because they have something to crush people against. (the planet). A ship hit with a gravity field would just get shoved to the side with no great harm. After all, the ship, the crew inside, and everyone else would experience the exact same acceleration.

Now, you could try to hit the ship with the edge of the field, so that one part accelerates and the other doesn't, or use it to ram one ship into another, but that gets tricky.
 
Candesce said:
I think it's good enough until we've started developing proper military hulls for our vehicles. We'd want to redesign everything then anyways.

Not sure we'd need a factory to supply enough till then, but eh. It'll save a BAP on starting production for the new armor.
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I don't, as I don't think we need to deploy any Brigantine ever. We don't need to expand our ground forces in the short run, I think we can wait until after the general redesign before doing it anymore. Between our allies, Meros being about to escape, and Biel Tan being cockblocked, we don't need stop-gap forces anymore. It would just be wasted AP that we have to re-fit again and never benefit from.

It will cost BAP overall compared to not building the factory in the first place.
 
Alratan said:
I just don't think we have a strong use case for our current Brigantine design. We know it's not bad, but it's not great either and I don't see a need to stockpile it. I really think this is an additional reason not to build a forge to make it.
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Mechanis said:
Your armor options are either fine or outright good, quit doomsaying.​
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That's not what the QM said though?
Candesce said:
Are getting our Elite units, Fast Attack units, or Light Cruiser refits more critical? Because our light cruiser hull at the moment should have an actual role in combat if we can give it one, and if we develop Melta Weapons and Void Torpedoes in the same turn, I think we can make it a decent torpedo cruiser design. Would avoid too much overlap with our War Ketches while still avoiding the use of very expensive naval exotics.
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Saw this again. We probably don't even need to specialise our Light Cruisers, at least at first. Even just modernising it so it's got a full set of defenses and weapons will put it head and shoulders above the current Caravel we use, and then after we've done the same for our Heavy Cruisers and Battleships then we can look into making more specialised designs.
 
Karnax626 said:
We probably don't even need to specialise our Light Cruisers, at least at first.
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I don't think we need to, no. I just would like to get a result that we're not just going to throw away on the way to heavy cruisers, and an area denial torpedo specialist seems like it might actually benefit from using a Caravel hull, unlike other things we might make that don't use exotics.

And I assume we don't want to be using many exotics on a ship that isn't coming with them from before the refit.
 
If we're using plasma pistols rather than spike carbines, we probably want something like:

Light Powered Armour: 1.75
Autotargeters: 0.5
Extended Operation Modification: 0.3
Improved Power-Assist: 0.3
Total: 2.85 =3

Assuming Auto-targeters help with aiming vehicle weapons. The 2 AP saved on the spike carbines more than compensate for the 1 AP cost increase for the Powered Armour.

Karnax626 said:
That's not what the QM said though?
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He said they're 'fine or outright good'. I think we can do better than 'fine'. I think we can make every good or even great. Light semi-powered armour seems strictly better than Brigatine, so why lock in something less good when we don't have to, when there's no urgency here. We don't have to build an Armour Foundry now. We've nothing urgent we need to be doing with our ground troops.

There are also synergies to consider, such as our plasma weapons, which are specifically designed to be used by people in powered armour, which means that powered armour is more valuable for us than it is for other people.
 
And here comes the usual goalpost moving...

"It's fine"

"Yeah but it's still garbage because we can do better than just fine"

"You shouldn't be able to make 100% optimal choices because you don't have all the information"

"We can do better than fine in the short term if you follow my specific idea"
 
Alectai said:
And here comes the usual goalpost moving...

"It's fine"

"Yeah but it's still garbage because we can do better than just fine"

"You shouldn't be able to make 100% optimal choices because you don't have all the information"

"We can do better than fine in the short term if you follow my specific idea"
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And no one every said it was garbage. Just that it wasn't something we wanted in our final ToE and that as we are no longer desperate to crash build whatever we can get our hands on because Biel Tan is about to attack and Meros is at risk of getting overrun by orks, we have the luxury of optimising.

I think you're stuck in the sunk cost of having designed this already.

Developing a suit of powered armour cost 1 AP. You're planning on spending twice that on locking in a continuing supply of it. That's what would be the mistake. That seems crazy. It's only 1 AP sunk cost, and you're insisting we can never correct course. That 1 AP expenditure wasn't a big deal. It's fine to switch.

I personably think tweaking our designs to better match our needs, other designs we've developed and what we've learned since is worth that.
 
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Creating brand new armor exclusively for vehicle pilots who dont use it most of the time anyways is a massive waste. Creating the new armor and the plasma pistols to justify using the armor would cost more then just using Spike Carbines and Brigantine
 
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Alratan said:
And no one every said it was garbage. Just that it wasn't something we wanted in our final ToE and that as we are no longer desperate to crash build whatever we can get our hands on because Biel Tan is about to attack and Meros is at risk of getting overrun by orks, we have the luxury of optimising.

I think you're stuck in the sunk cost of having designed this already.

Developing a suit of powered armour cost 1 AP. You're planning on spending twice that on locking in a continuing supply of it. That seems crazy. It's only 1 AP sunk cost.

I personably think tweaking our designs to better match our needs, other designs we've developed and what we've learned since is worth that.
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I'm not even saying "Never do it" It's just that SAP is almost as choked as BAP is right now, and I don't feel the need to design something for a third role when we still have basic buiilding blocks we need to get done!
 
Ok looking at the armor that the Zann-Tan uses for all their vehicle crews:

Mechanis said:
The standard model of armor used by the forces of Zahr-Tann, the Forgeguard Warsuit is a light power-assist armor with an integrated Autotargeting system. The vast majority of Zahr-Tann's troops are equipped with these suits.
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As VGA has the autotargeting system included if we don't want a new armor.
Not sure how much the sensors would add inside the vehicle.
Pure VGA on everything but the assault squad would be the way to go.

Edit:
Logistically speaking i don't think we could do better than 1 Armor system covering ~80-90% of our ground forces.
 
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VGA is basically our Aspect Armor equivalent, I feel. There's nobody that it isn't good for, with Wraithweave being a good option for second line forces and crew. Ithilmar is specialist assault armor, but its real niche I think would be as semi-mobile artillery pieces packing heavy guns or heavy melee, to take best advantage of them being difficult to pin down and all but immune to anything but full artillery barrages.

We absolutely likely want to consider introducing specialist gear for specialist roles, but I Think we have our basic trifecta of "Cheap and everyone can benefit from it" "More expensive but still sustainable as long as we don't spam this to absurdity" and "Super expensive for people who are going to be drawing all the fire, but makes them nigh invincible warp speed murderballs"

Specialization is on the line, but I don't feel it's urgent compared to getting our baseline measured. We have Good Enough for now, and I want to focus on filling things out rather than trying to ruthlessly optimize when we still don't even know what we don't know (And have been told that is intentional by the QM to avoid 100% optimal choices)
 
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Alectai said:
I'm not even saying "Never do it" It's just that SAP is almost as choked as BAP is right now, and I don't feel the need to design something for a third role when we still have basic buiilding blocks we need to get done!
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Designing wargear doesn't cost SAP. It costs BAP:

Mechanis said:
The Bonesinger has 15 Action Points available.​
...

[ ] Develop Wraithbone Warsuit (1 point)
While your current hardsuits are reasonably effective as combat armor, they are designed primarily to protect the wearer from moderate environmental hazards and or moderately dangerous animals (or plants), not a screaming Ork trying to remove one's limbs and or head.
Develop Wraithbone Warsuits, which are actual purpose built combat armor. Required for further armor development. Sub-vote to determine desired characteristics/design focus.
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Given we'd have to spend AP to switch what a foundry does it would actually save AP to design a new warsuit and then build a foundry for it, rather than build a Foundry, design a Warsuit, and then rebuild the Foundry.

RandomTechPriest said:
Creating brand new armor exclusively for vehicle pilots who dont use it most of the time anyways is a massive waste. Creating the new armor and the plasma pistols to justify using the armor would most more then just using Spike Carbines and Brigantine
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Cost more up front, but be better and cheaper in the long run. Similar to building production infrastucture.
 
Alectai said:
VGA is basically our Aspect Armor equivalent, I feel. There's nobody that it isn't good for, with Wraithweave being a good option for second line forces and crew. Ithilmar is specialist assault armor, but its real niche I think would be as semi-mobile artillery pieces packing heavy guns or heavy melee, to take best advantage of them being difficult to pin down and all but immune to anything but full artillery barrages.

We absolutely likely want to consider introducing specialist gear for specialist roles, but I Think we have our basic trifecta of "Cheap and everyone can benefit from it" "More expensive but still sustainable as long as we don't spam this to absurdity" and "Super expensive for people who are going to be drawing all the fire, but makes them nigh invincible warp speed murderballs"
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And here i think is the main point of contention.
I think we can (and should) do better than Wraithweave for our army and yes that includes our vehicle crews, you seem to be very much fine to keep it around long term.
 
Alectai said:
Imploder Guns are Down Acceleration.

Suffice to say, even disregarding all the flavor effects, hitting Five Times the human survivable max for G-forces is probably going to kill you or at least knock you out, and that might as well be fatal.
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so gravity bad, but how much can an ogryn handle, they come from high gravity worlds they adapted to, correct?
 
Alratan said:
Designing wargear doesn't cost SAP. It costs BAP:



Given we'd have to spend AP to switch what a foundry does it would actually save AP to design a new warsuit and then build a foundry for it, rather than build a Foundry, design a Warsuit, and then rebuild the Foundry.



Cost more, but be worse.
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... It's not even an option right now, you're literally looking at the turn 1 list and assuming it must apply indefinitely.

The QM has even Said "Your Armor is fine, you don't have anything to worry about there"

Why are you still beating on this drum.

The QM has literally, full stop, told us that our current armor designs are fine at worst, why is this even still up for discussion? We have so many other things we could be doing than trying to bleed a tiny bit more efficiency out!
 
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