I'm of the opinion Brigantine in good enough for mass production right now. Even if we decide later on that we can sustain VG as standard and transition to that it doesn't invalidate the value of having thousands of Brigantine on hand for emergency deployment after that.

As it is we have something Good Enough that we can make a lot of. We don't need to worry our ideal force composition, we can build up to that over the next few century. We should still be worrying about crash building an actually functional army within the next 50 decades (10 turns).
 
you do know that once we design new attachments, we can just use our martial AP to raise them up using the gear image select during the design process? refit is inefficient because your using stewardship for a warrior action.

The point is we want to do the design right from the start because to change something cost to 2 Steward AP.
1 to redesign the unit, second one to create the new detachment (at least under the current system).

Otherwise you will just raise the detachment with the old gear and then have to go in with the retofit to change things.

Overall this means we do want to touch the detachments once, go for something that is good/gives us space to grow into with our industry and then let them sit until we have build up enough new stuff that a new redesign makes sense.

Edit:
And as squads/vehicles are reused often in several detachments that means for a single change you suddenly start paying 5+AP. The AP cost per change goes down somewhat if you do a complete army overall and change most designs in some way, because you don't need to update a detachment for just 1 design but do so for 6+.
 
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Yeah, I want to revisit our Troop count and maybe convert our previous batch to Elites, and then set up an actual sustainable force, and start converting old-school Detachments into modernized ones. That puts the majority of the load over on WAP, which we're going to have a lot more of soon.
 
We wont be locked in though? We can retool any factory at any time if we decide we dont want to make it anymore. A factory isnt permanent.
But we have to spend AP to do that. There's lots of gear we need, much of which we'll make forever. IF we genuinely think we won't make Brigantine forever why not make a Foundry for something that we won't have to spend AP to switch?

because we can cheaply refit it later and it gives us the ability to emergency conscript soldiers if the chaos comes knocking before our proper military refit is done?

1) We've been told Chaos won't come knocking
2) We've a vast allied army sitting around as a garrison on our craftworld compared to which any citizen militia we hand out gear to will be irrelevant
3) We could make a foundry that can make other gear citixen conscripts can also make good use of that we won't have to refit one day.

We will be decomissioning every single piece of armor we currently have available to us at *some* point in the quest. We will be discovering new technologies and advancing our tech base as THE premier Vaulish faction of the Aeldari people. Our Grand Academy project allows us to steal ideas from other species and that one feudal planet with Golden Age Humanity wrecks in orbit, was specifically pointed out as a place we can go to loot for shiny gubbins.

If we decide to wait to build a foundry for a suit of armor we will never replace we wont build a foundary until after Big E is placed permanently on his golden toilet seat. Ideally we will be making Mk2 Ithilmar (Infantry scale grav shields are going to be a thing eventually, explicitly so, allowing us to stick more stuff into the Ithilmar), we are going to be making a Mk2 VGW, a Mk2 Brigandine, etc. Stuff will change, we will gain new things to produce. It is inevitable.

But twenty perfect suits of armor next week is worth five suits today. We cannot put off producing wargear forever while waiting for the suit we are never going to replace. Yes its technically not efficient points wise, but we cannot just sit back and wait for perfection while we make Zhar-Tann do all of our dirty work for us. We need to contribute too and to do that we need to start making wargear to give our soldiers.

There's equipment we could make a foundry for that we're very unlikely to ever decommission. Our Pre-Fall gear, for example.

Twenty perfect suits of armour next week are worth a lot more than five today if we're not going to use any suits of armour at all for a year. We have no anticipated ground combat coming up after this turn.

We don't need to wait for perfection, but we can wait until things are a lot better than they are now.

I'm of the opinion Brigantine in good enough for mass production right now. Even if we decide later on that we can sustain VG as standard and transition to that it doesn't invalidate the value of having thousands of Brigantine on hand for emergency deployment after that.

As it is we have something Good Enough that we can make a lot of. We don't need to worry our ideal force composition, we can build up to that over the next few century. We should still be worrying about crash building an actually functional army within the next 50 decades (10 turns).

We don't need to crash build any army. We've dodged the need for that.

And if we want to mass produce an armour, marginal improvements become even more important, as a small relative improvement multiplied over thousands of suits is a large absolute improvement.

We've spent 1 AP designing these suits. That's all. We don't need to commit to them. We don't owe them money. They didn't save our mother's life.

An armour that's even 5% better that we invest the equivalent of twenty AP in building, which is quite plausible based on what you're saying, breaks even with spending 1 AP on a redesign to make something better that costs the same to make.

It's things we might mass deploy where it's most important that we care about careful optimisation. Spending one AP to upgrade these doesn't meaningfully slow down our initial buildup over the course of ten plus turns, it just means that our results after ten turns will be noticeably better.
 
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Yeah, I want to revisit our Troop count and maybe convert our previous batch to Elites, and then set up an actual sustainable force, and start converting old-school Detachments into modernized ones. That puts the majority of the load over on WAP, which we're going to have a lot more of soon.

Are you ok on holding off on doing any more ground force designs for the next 3-4 turns so we have some time to grab more techs with seeker and the bonesinger AP ?

Should still have enough to do on the ship side of things and simple retrofits over that time frame.
 
Are you ok on holding off on doing any more ground force designs for the next 3-4 turns so we have some time to grab more techs with seeker and the bonesinger AP ?

Should still have enough to do on the ship side of things and simple retrofits over that time frame.

Absolutely, we're not in an urgent hurry for that, and SAP is probably going to be very busy with any obligations we'll catch as part of the Aeldmoot aftermath.
 
Can we at least get the militia squads out of the equivalent of stab proof vests, biker leathers and whatever weapons the local sporting goods shop and re-enactment group had to hand while we're building up to whatever amazing thing we're going to design in the future please.
 
Can we at least get the militia squads out of the equivalent of stab proof vests, biker leathers and whatever weapons the local sporting goods shop and re-enactment group had to hand while we're building up to whatever amazing thing we're going to design in the future please.

That is what retrofitting and the Brigantine are for.


Absolutely, we're not in an urgent hurry for that, and SAP is probably going to be very busy with any obligations we'll catch as part of the Aeldmoot aftermath.
Nice.
Will have to wait for the logistic information on the armor and weapon production, before I really start to plan but i do have some ideas.
 
But we have to spend AP to do that. There's lots of gear we need, much of which we'll make forever. IF we genuinely think we won't make Brigantine forever why not make a Foundry for something that we won't have to spend AP to switch?



1) We've been told Chaos won't come knocking
2) We've a vast allied army sitting around as a garrison on our craftworld compared to which any citizen militia we hand out gear to will be irrelevant
3) We could make a foundry that can make other gear citixen conscripts can also make good use of that we won't have to refit one day.



There's equipment we could make a foundry for that we're very unlikely to ever decommission. Our Pre-Fall gear, for example.

Twenty perfect suits of armour next week are worth a lot mor than five today if we're not going to use any suits of armour at all for a year. We have no anticipated ground combat coming up after this turn.

We don't need to wait for perfection, but we can wait until things are a lot better than they are now.



We don't need to crash build any army. We've dodged the need for that.

And if we want to mass produce an armour, marginal improvements become even more important, as a small relative improvement multiplied over thousands of suits is a large absolute improvement.

We've spent 1 AP designing these suits. That's all. We don't need to commit to them. We don't owe them money. They didn't save our mother's life.

An armour that's even 5% better that we invest the equivalent of twenty AP in building, which is quite plausible based on what you're saying, breaks even with spending 1 AP on a redesign.

It's things we might mass deploy where it's most important that we care about careful optimisation.
Yeah, except we dont know what the future will hold.

Our plans have already been completely upended planning even a decade into the future. We rolled *really* well. We could also have easily rolled really really badly. We dont know what the future will hold and preparing as if we have all the time in the world is folly. Yes we are a LOT better off then we used to be, yes a lot of the pressure has been taken off of our plates. But the Aeldmoot is coming up, and we plan to court additional allies for our northern coalition. Who knows what additional commitments or requests those future allies might make of us. Who knows what the humans might do, or what other foreign polities might attempt up here. Who knows what might come crawling out of the blackness to menace our craftworld.

We can make guesses, we can even scry, but nothing is written in stone for even knowing the future may be enough to change it.

No one is saying we owe the suits money. We are saying that they are cheap, easy to produce, and we want a shit ton of them for our first crack at basic bitch line infantry. That we need to raise new warhosts, and getting more warsuits today will increase the number of warhosts we can raise or refit tomorrow, depending on how we want to cut things. If we get attacked mid turn after we disband all our detachments, for example, thats a problem. But if we have the gear we can immediately hand it out to our existing warhosts for some stewardship to organize the whole affair.

Once we have a better grasp on how exactly foundaries work, we can start talking about making the transition to other kinds of armor and actually make detailed plans for how these things should go, meanwhile we will always be able to produce brigandine and needler equipped line infantry whenever we should need it.
 
That is what retrofitting and the Brigantine are for.



Nice.
Will have to wait for the logistic information on the armor and weapon production, before I really start to plan but i do have some ideas.

Broadly though, I want to get a production line started for every "Core" piece of equipment over time, VGA and Suncasters are next on my list.
 
Broadly though, I want to get a production line started for every "Core" piece of equipment over time, VGA and Suncasters are next on my list.
Who knows, maybe the foundaries for VGA will produce enough suits that its worth switching from Brigandine to VGA.

We could always just trade the Brigandine to the Asuryani for Gold Stars and to keep Biel-Tan from getting any funny idears.
 
Who knows, maybe the foundaries for VGA will produce enough suits that its worth switching from Brigandine to VGA.

We could always just trade the Brigandine to the Asuryani for Gold Stars and to keep Biel-Tan from getting any funny idears.

There'll always be a market for Brigantine, Ulthwe in particular will probably appreciate it given how they actually need Professional Guardians since they don't have enough Aspect Warriors, and it's significantly better than Guardian Mesh. We can probably get a solid trade there of any surplus as things shake loose.
 
I've been playing around with some refit package for the militia squads to see how much what I consider a reasonable refit for them with what we have available to make right now will cost.

Fire Squad refit
10 Wraithweave Brigandine 20EP
7 Needler Rifle 42EP
2 Vibration Caliver 16EP
Total 78EP
Or 71 with spike rifles
7 Spike Rifle 35

Assault Squad refit
10 Wraithweave Brigandine 20EP
10 Needler pistol 20EP
10 Rending Blade (Light) 50EP
Total 90EP

Marine Squad refit
8 Wraithweave Brigandine 16EP
Total 16EP

Add in Mirage Hover-Transports

Mirage Hover-Transport 182EP
4 Wraithweave Brigandine 8EP
4 Flamer Pistol 4EP
4 Close-Combat Weapon (Light) 4EP
Total 198

and we can refit a line detachment for 828EP and an assault detachment for 852EP

EDIT:
There'll always be a market for Brigantine, Ulthwe in particular will probably appreciate it given how they actually need Professional Guardians since they don't have enough Aspect Warriors, and it's significantly better than Guardian Mesh. We can probably get a solid trade there of any surplus as things shake loose.
Add in any human or xeno polities and we've got markets for days and not just for Brigantine as we can get access to hellguns for 1 BAP.
 
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Broadly though, I want to get a production line started for every "Core" piece of equipment over time, VGA and Suncasters are next on my list.

Thats fine for me.
I would almost ask for a double VGA foundry because i have a feeling we want a lot of them.
Well that or a vehicle foundry to check if there are large scale EP differences like there is in the starcrystal/psy scope production if we use the forge to EP / exotic to get a rough EP price for the exotic resources.
 
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Are you ok on holding off on doing any more ground force designs for the next 3-4 turns so we have some time to grab more techs with seeker and the bonesinger AP ?
Important reminder: equipment we develop via Bonesinger AP becomes available that turn. We were rationalizing troops with Ithilmar and Brigandine turn one, the same turn we developed those armors. And our turn one destroyer has Spike Macrobatteries, which we didn't start with either.
 
Thats fine for me.
I would almost ask for a double VGA foundry because i have a feeling we want a lot of them.
Well that or a vehicle foundry to check if there are large scale EP differences like there is in the starcrystal/psy scope production.

The only Vehicle Foundry I'd consider right now are Mirages due to the usefulness of mechanized forces, did we ever make a Rationalized Jetbike incidentally?
 
Can we at least get the militia squads out of the equivalent of stab proof vests, biker leathers and whatever weapons the local sporting goods shop and re-enactment group had to hand while we're building up to whatever amazing thing we're going to design in the future please.

The really annoying thing about this caricature is that it doesn't make sense. A superior powered light armour with a sensor seems superior to Brigantine, costs the same EP so can probably be made to reproduce, and could probably be made for the same amount of Bonesinger AP to design and then build a Foundry for as it would to build a Brigantine foundry that we're going to rebuild later.

Yeah, except we dont know what the future will hold.

Our plans have already been completely upended planning even a decade into the future. We rolled *really* well. We could also have easily rolled really really badly. We dont know what the future will hold and preparing as if we have all the time in the world is folly. Yes we are a LOT better off then we used to be, yes a lot of the pressure has been taken off of our plates. But the Aeldmoot is coming up, and we plan to court additional allies for our northern coalition. Who knows what additional commitments or requests those future allies might make of us. Who knows what the humans might do, or what other foreign polities might attempt up here. Who knows what might come crawling out of the blackness to menace our craftworld.

We can make guesses, we can even scry, but nothing is written in stone for even knowing the future may be enough to change it.

No one is saying we owe the suits money. We are saying that they are cheap, easy to produce, and we want a shit ton of them for our first crack at basic bitch line infantry. That we need to raise new warhosts, and getting more warsuits today will increase the number of warhosts we can raise or refit tomorrow, depending on how we want to cut things. If we get attacked mid turn after we disband all our detachments, for example, thats a problem. But if we have the gear we can immediately hand it out to our existing warhosts for some stewardship to organize the whole affair.

Once we have a better grasp on how exactly foundaries work, we can start talking about making the transition to other kinds of armor and actually make detailed plans for how these things should go, meanwhile we will always be able to produce brigandine and needler equipped line infantry whenever we should need it.

Why should we build a Brigatine factory when for the same price and ease of manufacture we can make something better that synergises better with our choices for designing plasma weapons? A suit of light powered armour with sensors costs exactly the same amount and is just as easy to manufacture, but is better for us given our other choices.

Beyond that. Why would we make a Brigantine factory rather than a factory for another piece of equipment? This is a question of opportunity cost. What needs to be justified isn't Brigantine rather than nothing, it's why Brigantine is better to manufacture at scale than literally every other piece of wargear we have bar one.

You want this to be out basic bitch armour. It's not a design tailored for that. It's fine as specialist equipment that we deploy for niche purposes for vehicle crews who rarely need to rely on it. It's not ideal, but that doesn't matter.

You're also one acting as if nothing has changed. As if Biel Tan was still about to attack next week. As if we didn't have a large army of allies protecting us. As if Meros wasn't just about to escape.
 
The only Vehicle Foundry I'd consider right now are Mirages due to the usefulness of mechanized forces, did we ever make a Rationalized Jetbike incidentally?
We made a jetbike yes but I'm not a fan of it because there's no defences and the pilot has a flame pistol which is not something I would hand to a combat biker
 
The only Vehicle Foundry I'd consider right now are Mirages due to the usefulness of mechanized forces, did we ever make a Rationalized Jetbike incidentally?

We did but never turned that into a fast attack unit.

That said not really happy with the design we got and the new tech might open up some nice upgrades.
 
The only Vehicle Foundry I'd consider right now are Mirages due to the usefulness of mechanized forces, did we ever make a Rationalized Jetbike incidentally?
The Razorwind Jetbike.

I'd be fine with Mirages, unless we decide to revisit squad size too. Which I don't think we should.

I'm not a fan of it because there's no defences
It does get some benefit from the rider's VGW holofield, but one of the reasons to want a vehicular conversion field design is because it'd let us put actual defenses on jetbikes.
 
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It's things we might mass deploy where it's most important that we care about careful optimisation. Spending one AP to upgrade these doesn't meaningfully slow down our initial buildup over the course of ten plus turns, it just means that our results after ten turns will be noticeably better.
The QM has outright stated he doesn't want this quest to be about careful optimization. He has, I believe, pushed a general thought proses of "Fix your immediate problems with what you Have, not what you Want."

A shit equipped military is explicitly stated to be A Problem We Have Now. We have solutions to a lot of the most basic things now. Your entire argument is that we shouldn't use them because they aren't the solutions we want.

I reject you.

A Brigandine For Every Body. A Needeler For Every Hand
 
The only Vehicle Foundry I'd consider right now are Mirages due to the usefulness of mechanized forces, did we ever make a Rationalized Jetbike incidentally?
This thing was the top vote during turn 1 vehicle vote

[X] Razorwind Jetbike
-[X] Jetbike
-[X] Trade in for mounts: 1 Heavy -3
-[X] Weapons: 1 (H) Spike Cannon, Twin Linked Needler Rifles
-[X] Crew Equipment: Void Guard Warsuit

Edit:
IRC the QM has mentioned that infantry scale Holo-Fields (like the one a VGA has) can partially protect something like a Jetbike which was the reasoning for why this thing doesn't have a built-in Holo-Field.
 
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I've been playing around with some refit package for the militia squads to see how much what I consider a reasonable refit for them with what we have available to make right now will cost.

Fire Squad refit
10 Wraithweave Brigandine 20EP
7 Needler Rifle 42EP
2 Vibration Caliver 16EP
Total 78EP
Or 71 with spike rifles
7 Spike Rifle 35

Assault Squad refit
10 Wraithweave Brigandine 20EP
10 Needler pistol 20EP
10 Rending Blade (Light) 50EP
Total 90EP

Marine Squad refit
8 Wraithweave Brigandine 16EP
Total 16EP

Add in Mirage Hover-Transports

Mirage Hover-Transport 182EP
4 Wraithweave Brigandine 8EP
4 Flamer Pistol 4EP
4 Close-Combat Weapon (Light) 4EP
Total 198

and we can refit a line detachment for 828EP and an assault detachment for 852EP

EDIT:

Add in any human or xeno polities and we've got markets for days and not just for Brigantine as we can get access to hellguns for 1 BAP.
Remember each point for an infantry refit allows us to touch the armor of five detachments and to touch three non-integrated devices for five detachments.
 
I'd be fine with Mirages, unless we decide to revisit squad size too. I don't think we should.

Thing is currently i think is pretty much the only time the squad size can be changed economically.
As we can then build around what we decided we can actually support.

We will also have to go over our troop design anyway i think mostly to add in the new tech before we actually add them into detachments, in part because we didn't have a lot of options turn 1.
 
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