Probably. I, personally, think 12 and 6 are excellent squad size numbers, but this would be the time to change if they're not. Do you have arguments for different sizes?
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
F0lkL0re
Officially not an Inquisitor
- Location
- Shetland
The only non-integrated devices we have available just now are holo-fields or I would have added something like grenades.
- Location
- Germany
I think there is an argument that can be made for 15 and 8.
With the larger transports fitted for 16 to account for 1 attached unit to our troop squads.
But have to see the logistics side to see how much room we have on the passive EP generation vs AP raising new detachments.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
My opinion is that when we no longer have militia and are thinking about raising new detachments, we should consider raising those new detachments using void guard armor and sunblasters. Honestly there might be a role to fill to do both? We could just have Wraithweave Brigandine-and-Needler troops stay at home, allowing our more capable and heavily armed voidguard equipped forces to go out and roam. Garrison forces dont need to be heavily armed, just strong enough to keep an invading force honest and stall long enough for the big boys with the big guns to run back home and open up a can of whupass.
Needlers are awesome, but I kinda want our standard infantry gun to be a sunblaster Caliver. But I would not be upset if we stuck to needlers. Filling enemies with spikes scratches an itch in my lizard brain you know. Its just so satisfying turning your enemies into pincushions.
Guns count as non-integrated devices, according to the explanation post @Mechanis made. You use those slots to touch a detachments armament.
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Lack of basic infantry isn't a problem we have anymore or for the foreseeable future. We have more basic infantry with better gear already available than you're proposing building than we could construct for along time.
The critical holes in our military have changed as a result of our allies showing up.
Now the gaps we have are for heavy and super heavy infantry, artillery, and super heavies, not line infantry.
If we're building anything as a stop gap, it should be then. You're trying to solve last turn's problem. It's like a general stuck fighting the last war.
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Go right up to the max squad size, huh?
I think that's going to produce unpleasant compromises to the transport vehicles to achieve, and the big vulnerability of our troops with VGW is artillery. Bigger squads make that worse.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Yes but we dont want to get a reputation for just throwing our allies at all of our problems while we sit at home and tinker for the perfect military that never gets fielded. We need to be seen to be getting our hands dirty too, in order for the relationship to be seen as equitable and mutually beneficial.
@Alectai
*snaps finger* Garrison forces. Soldiers whose job is to just sit on the craftworld, deal with any problems we have at home, and to hold down the fort allowing us to commit our better equipped and more heavily armed forces abroad. Thats what Wraithweave and Needlers will be good for. Heck, with a Shrine of Khaine, maybe we can even figure out a way to automate raising more garrison troops, which would synergize with our foundaries.
Maybe thats what the Hall of Stewards does too?
The fact that we are making foundaries where the Asuryani just use their bonesingers all day every day is interesting because we explicitly went for improved industry as our starting pick.
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F0lkL0re
Officially not an Inquisitor
- Location
- Shetland
Well then I'm not sure what your pointing out exactly this was an exercise in producing an upgrade for them that was reasonably priced, not cheap reasonable, and based on what they have right now so I'm not sure what the problem is.
If we say, built Ithilmar and VGA and sent heavy and super-heavy infantry alongside our allies, we'd be contributing.
We're probably much more capable of deploying those heavily armoured troops without just getting them killed as well, and as they add a capability our allies don't already have, they'd probably be much more grateful than us sending something they can already do better (as any green line troops we send with Brigandine and Needlers would be significantly less useful than their own experienced troops with Light Semi-Powered Armour, Hellguns, Flare shields, and grenades).
As I say, the question isn't Brigandine or nothing, it's why Brigandine rather than any of our other wargear.
- Location
- Germany
Comes down to what vehicles we use.
Assault transport already i think would need to be super heavy for a 12 squad if used in combination with closed transport to keep them save until they embark. Going up to 15/16 doesn't change things there as it would already need 12 slots for that which we only can get on the Heavy Grav-vehicle if we want a strong defense.
And for the open transport we would change from 6 points to 8 which I think is doable if we use the Light Grav-vehicle as a base, not a lot of guns but similar enough to the mirage. Cost goes up by like 30-40EP for the vehicle would have to go and check there.
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Kolar
Is Not A Robot
I also reject that our ally's army solves the problems of our army. Their army is not our army and to teat it as such is a mistake.
I'd say 12 and 6 size squads are good. Just for the 6 Elite/HG give them more potent/hightech weapons and gear, or for 6 non elites give them heavy weapons or specialist weapons, Fatecasters, as an example.
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Actually, now that I look at it I am not sure how the Razorwind costs 66EP.
A naked Jetbike like the militia one is 21EP but the Razorwind's total weapons loadout shouldn't cost an extra 45EP as 2x Needler Rifles and 1x Heavy Spike Cannon is 6*2+12=24EP and the Razorwind has nothing else added to it besides those weapons.
@Mechanis is that 66EP cost an error or did I miss something?
A naked Jetbike like the militia one is 21EP but the Razorwind's total weapons loadout shouldn't cost an extra 45EP as 2x Needler Rifles and 1x Heavy Spike Cannon is 6*2+12=24EP and the Razorwind has nothing else added to it besides those weapons.
@Mechanis is that 66EP cost an error or did I miss something?
We can deploy their army as if it was our army. What we can't do is deploy their army like it's not our army, so we don't care about it.
Trying to duplicate their capabilities rather than complement them seems very foolish to me. Trying to do what they can already do but doing it worse isn't how you impress an ally.
What the ally particularly does is buy us time. It means we don't have to panic buy to stave off an immediate crisis. It gives us the time and space to forge our own unique style and doctrine, rather than just reproducing slightly reskinned canon Guardians which seems to be the plan lots of people want to go for here.
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Mm.
So, basically, larger squads would mean our forces have slower movement. And what we're hoping to gain from this is what? Maximizing the size of squads, and maximizing the number of squads in a warhost, so that we produce the absolute largest warhost possible per warrior AP?
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- Location
- Germany
Squad size depends on our logistic pretty much.
And that would be the one thing i would set to the max from the start if we can predict that mid/long term we will have problem with the AP more than with the EP/gear production.
Mostly because that is the one thing that gets really hard to fix later.
And that would be the one thing i would set to the max from the start if we can predict that mid/long term we will have problem with the AP more than with the EP/gear production.
Mostly because that is the one thing that gets really hard to fix later.
Perhaps the chassis itself is added in?
Right, AP efficiency.
I think you're overweighting that, especially since compromising our warhosts' combat ability is also going to cost us EP and AP both as we have to keep replacing losses.
- Location
- Germany
It is the one long term optimization I would do even if it doesn't make too much sense now.
If we can already predict that we will have way more gear production than AP.
Also a bit looking at us needing a lot of firepower when trying to get Isha back something that we likely build up to for most of the quest, so early decision if capped on AP might add a good bit more punch.
As for slower, not sure ?
Grav vehicles are all pretty damn fast and i think even the heavy grav vehicle isn't really slower than the jetbikes just a lot more expensive to build (QM info on differences in speed IC)?
Edit:
As said not set in stone need the actual logistics data for that which we only this/start of next turn.
Apart from that pretty much just my natural tendency trying to maximise firepower.
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Yes but then we would be throttling how many soldiers we can field by how many Ithilmar suits we are making.
We picked Brigandine for a variety of reasons, all of which have been stated by various people. But I shall reiterate.
Wraithweave-and-Needlers are a test case, our first foundry so that we can gather data on what our foundaries do (all our tables are probably screwy post-fall) and how much of it they do. Its so we arent spending all of our bonesinger AP making stuff all the time. We build a foundary and just works forever spitting our armor and guns. Because of how the costs of the armor and the gun shake out, its a nice, cheap, simple test case so that we can plan our future foundaries.
We need *SOME* suit of armor now, and wraithweave are cheap so the hope is our shiny new foundry will produce a bunch of the things which will last basically forever until destroyed or lost.
Our idea is to be the arms dealer of the Aedlari, and so giving them better suits that suit their tastes will just be good sense both from a trade standpoint and a 'We dont want the Aeldari to become more of an endangered species than we already are' sense. Wraithweave Brigandine just seems like it would fit with what we know of the Asuryani.
These foundaries will be all about ratios. If we want to automate the raising of detachments we will want foundaries to support those detachments. Because they need kit when they finish Space-Elf-Bootcamp. So having a foundary that just spits out stuff as fast as we can train people just seems like good sense.
Having extra for an emergency is also good sense, and these seem like decent kit to hand out if say, Vulkan decides to pay us a house visit and tell us what he REALLY thinks of the Aeldari. We can throw civilian militia in these suits and shove these needlers into their hands.
So there is a variety of reasons why we picked this suit and this gun.
That 66EP is directly from the vehicle Quick Reference Sheet and that sheet is used as a reference during the Turn 2 and Turn 3 wargear production votes. As you can see the Militia Jetbike also remains consistent at 21EP in all those sheets.
| Name | EP Cost | Starcrystals Required | Fatebender Psy-scopes Required |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jetbike (Militia) | 21 | 0 | 0 |
| Jetbike (Fatesplitter Carbine) | 28 | 0 | 1 |
| Jetbike (Starblaster Rifle) | 31 | 2 | 0 |
| Razorwind Jetbike | 66 | 0 | 0 |
| Bright Talon Heavy Jetbike | 98 | 8 | 1 |
| Star Flare Attack Skimmer | 120 | 16 | 2 |
| Cloudburst Attack Skimmer | 93 | 0 | 0 |
| Attack Barge | 156 | 0 | 0 |
| Mirage Hover-Transport | 182 | 0 | 0 |
| Needlestorm IFV | 236 | 0 | 3 |
| Starhammer Battle Tank | 380 | 28 | 0 |
| Blazestar Grav-tank | 257 | 20 | 1 |
| Star Anvil Superheavy Assault Tank | 1300 | 78 | 6 |
| Bright Eagle Fighter-bomber | 469 | 40 | 0 |
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I personally am partial to growing ever larger squads, it will be probably more Warrior AP efficient, but with time we should be able to perfect our fighting gears and style.
After all both Perfection and Stagnation are our literal enemies
F0lkL0re
Officially not an Inquisitor
- Location
- Shetland
Well considering that a jetbike is basically a jet engine with a seat and some guidance while most other grav vehicles have more to push I would assume that there is a bit of a speed difference.
- Location
- Germany
At least on the TT all the eldar grav vehicles seem to have 14 movement (at least in 10 edition).
Doesn't matter if it is a jetbike or their super heavy tank, in part why i am asking the QM how things look here IC.
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