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Starfleet Design Bureau

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This is a game. If you want to be able to seize prisoners, you need a brig. If you want to be able to seize cargo, you need a cargo bay.

It's the same reason why fabrication doesn't let you build extra science widgets, because then they're be no reason at all to build labs.

We have to make a choice, we can't stuff contraband in any random hole and we can't tape people in EVA suits to the outside hull.
 
Miho Chan said:
Thus, I would propose that we take a Brig, Tractor Beam, Cargo Bay, and, if we absolutely must, a fourth choice, which should realistically simply be the Transporter.

I'm not really proposing a plan since if I recall correctly it's already been proposed, and thus would be redundant to propose again.
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That's correct. Brig-cargo bay-tractor beam-transporter is

[ ] Plan Everything But The Mule
 
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I think lighter ships will be cheaper to make, so a given polity might be more inclined to build more of them.

Kartr_Kana, your posts makes me feel you are expecting a much broader set of mission profiles that these ships would be expected to accomplish than I do.

I think these ships are in-system anti-smuggler ships, and the bigger stuff you are talking about would be better addressed by calling for support from a big ship from a federation member's home fleet/starfleet.
 
Miho Chan said:
I think everyone is actually missing something here. Let me go grab a quote from the first part of Project Protector:


Specifically, in the original post introducing us to Project Protector, there is zero mention of the brig (In the specific specifications of the contest). Now, there's an argument that we need a brig, and one that we don't. I actually, to a point, don't think we need a dedicated brig, though realistically it should be included because, well, it's a police/CG cutter. Let me explain through the use of another quote from the QM.



So, essentially, the QM has all but flat out stated that taking all 5 options is going to be actively detrimental to us. What we need, as stated by the QM, is Design Synergy. Thus, we have to break down the five options into things that have exceptional synergy... or do the thing both do better than the other does.

With that in mind, honestly, my thought is that we just... do what the Telleries and the Denobulans did better than either of them did... which we do simply via virtue of a single nacelle Type 3 for the latter, and by including the correct utilities, to an extent we do for the former. Thus, I would propose that we take a Brig, Tractor Beam, Cargo Bay, and, if we absolutely must, a fourth choice, which should realistically simply be the Transporter.

I'm not really proposing a plan since if I recall correctly it's already been proposed, and thus would be redundant to propose again.
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Well yes, but actually no. We have at present a configuration that means we don't have to compromise function in the name of cost as the other entries are, because we can put all of them in and still not be breaking the bank. The Type 3 Nacelle is really the key here, because it means we save a significant amount of budget without losing any capability on the other entries with our single Nacelle design.

Like, we made choices that allow us to do this thing, why are we getting cold feet at the finish line?
 
BeepSmile said:
I think these ships are in-system anti-smuggler ships, and the bigger stuff you are talking about would be better addressed by calling for support from a big ship from a federation member's home fleet/starfleet.
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I think these ships are going to be on a range of missions from pulling over freighters to check for contraband, to patrolling and chasing after criminals. They need to be cheap yet effective, so we shouldn't take every option just what we feel would be most effective.
 
Something to consider: Ships aren't going to be the only thing this ship has to deal with. Sure, that'll be the bread and butter, but there's also knocking over in-system contraband stashes. Hollow out an asteroid and you build a covert transfer point pretty cheaply. It may even get pulled into supporting ground-based police actions.
 
Mechanis said:
Like, we made choices that allow us to do this thing, why are we getting cold feet at the finish line?
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Because if the QM presents you with what is supposed to be a choice of what to give up, and you respond with "akshully the way you've written the scenario, I can have my cake and eat it too," the response is not going to be "aw, shucks, you've cracked the code," it's going to be "OK, time to go Kobayashi Maru on this smart aleck."
 
We also don't want to get winning the cost score, that we can do with any combination, confused with everything being the same price, especially as an ongoing thing for a fleet.

Cargo Bays are probably low maintenance,c with the costs coming from the ship itself needing to be bigger. Lots of utility, little ongoing cost

Brig would be middle of the line - probably lots of routine checks but not much fiddly stuff. Lots of utility, little ongoing cost.

Having transporters is probably high maintenance, high utility, high ongoing costs and a specialist to operate.
Having shuttle Bays is probably high maintenance, high utility, high ongoing costs and a specialist (though less so compared to teleporter) to operate.

Having both is lots of extra maintenance with a big double up on capabilities. I think that having both would actively be less attractive to someone wanting to have a bunch of these that can slot into existing police force.
 
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Firehawk242 said:
Something to consider: Ships aren't going to be the only thing this ship has to deal with. Sure, that'll be the bread and butter, but there's also knocking over in-system contraband stashes. Hollow out an asteroid and you build a covert transfer point pretty cheaply. It may even get pulled into supporting ground-based police actions.
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The fact that the police on the ships may be called to do ground work on away missions, is a solid argument for shuttles; places where its unsafe to transport do exist in star trek and are a decent place for criminals to hide.
 
Rockeye said:
The engineering isn't done when there's nothing left to add, it's done when there's nothing left to take away.

Brig. Tractor beam. Transporter. That's all you really need to tell random civilian ships to heave to, and search them and arrest people.
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And when the pirates take to three separate small craft to try to scatter into the local Oort Cloud?

Seriously, coast guard vessel. We need a shuttlebay.

NEED.
 
Giving it some thought, single Shuttlebay would be preferable to the single transporter. People can object to being materialized and that's something that should probably be respected.
 
Sayle said:
They are interested in standardising their designs for an in-system enforcer, one capable of basic police and inspection actions. The increasing traffic and intra-Federation commerce means that their current designs are beginning to reach parity with well-equipped merchant and smuggler ships, and planetside incidents can rapidly escalate into spaceborne escapes that their current roster aren't capable of interdicting. The main requirement is that the design should be cheap with a basic tactical armament, designed for use by non-military personnel with standard training.
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This is explicitly an in-system patrol vessel, intended to conduct basic inspection and police work. I'm pretty sure that it doesn't even really need crew quarters or a mess, since it's never supposed to be more than a few minutes at most from a friendly planet or station?

Like, we probably don't even need a tractor beam? A crappy warp 3 tug will still be able to get to any ship we leave dead in the water within half an hour. We don't need to be able to hold ships that try to run, the ships we're interdicting are much slower than us. We don't need to worry about the ships that we're interdicting trying to fight us because apparently even a single phaser is enough to utterly overmatch them.

Realistically, everything beyond being able to grossly outrun and outfight armed merchants or smugglers is just some nice quality-of-life stuff. As the QM pointed out, when a police cutter rolls up and tells you to stand down, your options are either to comply or die.
 
[X] 0: No Shuttlebay
[X] 1: Transporter (+10,000 Tons)
[X] 2: No Cargo Bay
[X] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
[X] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)

Transporters to put enforcers on a ship then bring them and arrestees back to the ship.
A brig to hold the arrestees.
Then a tractor beam to tow the ship back.

We're in friendly, populated space so we're not going to be investigating weird atmospheres that block transporters, or need supplies longer than the length of a couple work shifts.
 
LunaMoth said:
The fact that the police on the ships may be called to do ground work on away missions, is a solid argument for shuttles; places where its unsafe to transport do exist in star trek and are a decent place for criminals to hide.
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True, but shuttle support is something that can be added fairly organically, just by launching from the planet.
Wootius said:
Giving it some thought, single Shuttlebay would be preferable to the single transporter. People can object to being materialized and that's something that should probably be respected.
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Not respecting SovCit nonsense is about the only thing I am in full agreement with the cops on.
 
Lohjak said:
This is explicitly an in-system patrol vessel, intended to conduct basic inspection and police work. I'm pretty sure that it doesn't even really need crew quarters or a mess, since it's never supposed to be more than a few minutes at most from a friendly planet or station?

Like, we probably don't even need a tractor beam? A crappy warp 3 tug will still be able to get to any ship we leave dead in the water within half an hour. We don't need to be able to hold ships that try to run, the ships we're interdicting are much slower than us. We don't need to worry about the ships that we're interdicting trying to fight us because apparently even a single phaser is enough to utterly overmatch them.

Realistically, everything beyond being able to grossly outrun and outfight armed merchants or smugglers is just some nice quality-of-life stuff. As the QM pointed out, when a police cutter rolls up and tells you to stand down, your options are either to comply or die.
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Ships do not warp in system by default: no one wants hundreds of FTL missiles flying near inhabited planets.
 
Anyway,
[X]Plan All In 120,000
- [X] 0: Shuttlebay
- [X] 1: Transporter
- [X] 2: Cargo Bay
- [X] 3: Brig
- [X] 4: Tractor Beam


I've made my arguments why we should be having all five utility functions already.
 
[X] Plan Only One Ship Needed
-[X] 0: No Shuttlebay
-[X] 1: No Transporter
-[X] 2: Cargo Bay (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)

Tellaries have an inspection ship
Equal the Tellarites:
[ ] 2: Cargo Bay (+10,000 Tons)
[ ] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)

Denobulans a pursuit ship
Equal the Denobulans:
[ ] 0: Shuttlebay (+20,000 Tons)
[ ] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)

So what does this do? Unlike the Tellarites our faster warp speed and tractor beam let us function like a pursuit ship, unlike the Denobulans us having a cargo bay and a brig let us function as an inspection ship so when our design is deployed it does not need additional ships to fulfill the other functions (and the denobulan design is noted as having to wait for another ship to take on prisoners and contraband). Dropping the cargo bay or the brig though means for contraband or prisoners you would need to wait on another ship


[X]Plan All In 120,000

[X] Plan Everything But The Mule
 
Tank man said:
I'd imagine you're probably looking at at least 20 per system. Assuming the old 1:2 ratio holds true (for no -nuclear carriers/ships) that'd allow for 10 cutters operational at any given time.
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I think this number is way high unless you're looking at per member. I'd think 3-5 of these would be the max per system unless that system also did a bunch of multi-system patrols and had some colonies which didn't have dedicated units of their own.
 
[X] Plan Revenue and Customs
-[X] 0: Shuttlebay (+20,000 Tons)
-[X] 1: Transporter (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 2: No Cargo Bay
-[X] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)

I'll go ahead and kick off Plan Revenue and Customs.
 
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