Not necessarily. Increases in power are mostly linear and math means equal linear gains eventually make Punching Up stop working. If we were at 40% and he was at 100% last time, and we're at 80% now and he's at 140% we're past the point of Punching Up working but his gains have actually kept pace with ours.
I suspect we actually have gained ground (maybe even significant ground), but we can't assume it just from Punching Up not being on the table.
Should we potentially use Fight of Your Life charges in the negotiations?
Remember that if we're willing to tough it out we could potentially chain TSS 6 times to Threadcutter all the people in charge of holding hostages. Though only if they're completely unwilling to give them up.
Not necessarily. Increases in power are mostly linear and math means equal linear gains eventually make Punching Up stop working. If we were at 40% and he was at 100% last time, and we're at 80% now and he's at 140% we're past the point of Punching Up working but his gains have actually kept pace with ours.
I suspect we actually have gained ground (maybe even significant ground), but we can't assume it just from Punching Up not being on the table.
I mean, even in the case presented, even if technically we didnt get stronger, we actually are closing the gap here, since the ratio of strength is closer to equal
Should we potentially use Fight of Your Life charges in the negotiations?
Remember that if we're willing to tough it out we could potentially chain TSS 6 times to Threadcutter all the people in charge of holding hostages. Though only if they're completely unwilling to give them up.
Remember that if we're willing to tough it out we could potentially chain TSS 6 times to Threadcutter all the people in charge of holding hostages. Though only if they're completely unwilling to give them up.
I mean, even in the case presented, even if technically we didnt get stronger, we actually are closing the gap here, since the ratio of strength is closer to equal
Sure. I was responding specifically to the idea of Hooknails 'slacking off' because Punching Up no longer applied more than anything. We're definitely in a better situation in terms of power level comparisons now than we were the first time we met him, but that doesn't mean his gains have been unimpressive.
I think that specific ranking may be obsolete though it's hard to say for sure. We're definitely not above Top, though, and likely at the lower end of Top even if we are there.
I think that specific ranking may be obsolete though it's hard to say for sure. We're definitely not above Top, though, and likely at the lower end of Top even if we are there.
I'll update the ranking of things here in a bit, once the whole Revenge Raid is done.
0~0~0
First things first, now that you've had some time to consider it, how are you finding the whole alloying system?
Second things second, voting is now closed. It's a little early, but whatever.
Scheduled vote count started by Imperial Fister on Oct 14, 2023 at 7:46 PM, finished with 63 posts and 11 votes.
[X] Plan: Keep it cool and Stick To The Facts.
-[X] Stay cool, don't let them rile you up, because that's a really good way to get something regrettable happen. Remember that you have them by the throat here. Be willing to spend Calm Charges as needed to keep your head together if Composure fails despite Cool-Off. Also, use all Social Tricks as required and needed. Goal-Tell, Lowest Limit, and Cool-Off as needed.
-[X] Muse about how you're not really sure what they were hoping to accomplish here, really, just a head on assault? Just like that? And then thinking you'd all just sit tight while they had their way with your home? The little raid has already failed, the might of the Hading has fallen upon it, and those who aren't dead are captured or accounted for. What happens next is entirely up to how much of an issue they decide to make of the matter. (In short, be vague on the details, but make it clear that there's no help coming for him and his forces that are going to make a difference at this point. See what spills out)
-[X] See, you don't take kindly to strangers trying to cause problems for your neighbors--and the master of this house? Right outside, along with more than enough men to drown you in bodies even if there were no experts among them--and the Hading has never been short on Experts. (A little touch of intimidation there to boot.)
-[X] So, now that we've made it clear that you're not claiming victory, what's left is seeing how painful defeat is. Whether it's a bloodied nose or rolling the dice to see if the Nornir have had enough of your Saga. Because the latter is exactly what's going to happen if you decide to do anything more than quit the field and leave this place. (A little reminder that yes, he has some hostages, he does have a little leverage, in the sense that there might be room for him to walk away after this. But that's as far as it goes. )
-[X] Frenzy on our Social, spend Odr as needed to sharpen our tongue. Frankly, we're going to cross swords, the Nornir won't accept any other outcome, the important thing is that we establish that he is not arguing from a position of power here, the question is how much he can salvage from this clusterfuck.
-[X] Just to clarify, We are willing to cut a deal, we're just making it clear that he's not negotiating from a position of real strength here.
[X] Plan Probing For Information
-[X] The primary goals here are to find out what Hooknails wants and especially to get info on the hostages. If we can get him to give us info on his people that's great, but what we really want is how many hostages he has and who they are. Wanting to know that before we make offers for said hostages is normal behavior, and we should be able to get that much.
-[X] Specifically, also use Lowest Limit and Goal Tell to see what Hooknails wants out of this arrangement and the price he might be willing to pay, while using Light Touch to keep from goading him and Cool Off if necessary to keep from being goaded.
-[X] Try and use Frenzy on this negotiation, and spend Odr as needed to enhance things as well.
The system is good and interesting. I'm a big fan of the way it's worked so far, though it's eaten up a fair portion of our available research the last few turns.
The only hiccup is that a few Alloys really need more information...like, what do Stoked Body (the Hamr/Stoker State alloy) or Fight Of Our Lives (the Fight of Your Life/Banish the Night alloy) actually do? The descriptions we have are vague to the point where we still don't understand what they actually do in game terms even a little, which is a bit of an issue.
When it first came out I was like, cool a new way to get more Spells. But after we figured out that it could work on most stuff, sky's the limit.
Only gripe was how much of a drain on research it is, but then that was a good way to balance it out.
Hm... Now that you are saying it, being able to gain Odreng for unfair treatment of them would have been weird if they were outlaws...
Against real Outlaws unfair attacks aren't Odreng, right? (long range Seid stuff, the timestop stuff if you hadn't changed your mind after discussion in discord)
And there are probably some rules for treatment of raiders then, right?
**[X] Plan: Keep it cool and Stick To The Facts.**
-[X] Stay cool, don't let them rile you up, because that's a really good way to get something regrettable happen. Remember that _you_ have them by the throat here. Be willing to spend Calm Charges as needed to keep your head together if Composure fails despite Cool-Off. Also, use _all_ Social Tricks as required and needed. Goal-Tell, Lowest Limit, and Cool-Off as needed.
-[X] Muse about how you're not really sure what they were hoping to accomplish here, really, just a head on assault? Just like that? And then thinking you'd all just sit tight while they had their way with your home? The little raid has already failed, the might of the Hading has fallen upon it, and those who aren't dead are captured or accounted for. What happens next is _entirely_ up to how much of an issue they decide to make of the matter. (In short, be vague on the details, but make it clear that there's no help coming for him and his forces that are going to make a difference at this point. See what spills out)
-[X] See, you don't take kindly to strangers trying to cause problems for your neighbors--and the master of this house? Right outside, along with more than enough men to drown you in bodies even if there were no experts among them--and the Hading has never been short on Experts. (A little touch of intimidation there to boot.)
-[X] So, now that we've made it clear that you're not claiming victory, what's left is seeing how painful defeat is. Whether it's a bloodied nose or rolling the dice to see if the Nornir have had enough of your Saga. Because the latter is exactly what's going to happen if you decide to do anything more than quit the field and leave this place. (A little reminder that yes, he has some hostages, he does have a _little_ leverage, in the sense that there might be room for him to walk away after this. But that's as far as it goes. )
-[X] Frenzy on our Social, spend Odr as needed to sharpen our tongue. Frankly, we're _going_ to cross swords, the Nornir won't accept any other outcome, the important thing is that we establish that he is _not_ arguing from a position of power here, the question is how much he can salvage from this clusterfuck.
-[X] Just to clarify, We _are_ willing to cut a deal, we're just making it clear that he's not negotiating from a position of real strength here.
0~0~0
You take a deep breath and soothe your warrior's spirit. There will be time for violence, but that time is not yet at hand. No matter what, you have to keep your choler in check, else Hooknails slip free of this one. You have him by the balls here, losing yourself to your rage would only serve to his advantage.
A surging of orthstirr fuels your social tricks as you watch for any notable tells. His most important goal is to escape with his head intact, or at least cause as much pain as possible on the way out. He's a spiteful bastard, this Hooknails—which can only be expected from someone who can't pet animals. The lowest he's willing to go is to sacrifice the men he's brought along with him, you get the impression that none are his fellow hirdsmen.
Now then, how to play this? You get the sense that Hooknails is a prideful sort who doesn't much appreciate losing—not that that's all that uncommon of a character trait. If you press on that a bit, you might be able to get some information out of him. He's smart, though, so you're not expecting to get all that much, but any is better then none.
"I'll be honest with you, Hooknails," you hook your thumbs into your belt as you rock on your heels, "I don't quite get your reasoning behind this whole thing, what you hoped to accomplish." you wiggle a finger in his general direction. "A head-on assault? Just like that? Did you think we'd just sit back with our feet up as you ravage our home and hearth?"
Hooknails shrugs as he leans on the doorframe, his arms crossed before him, "While I can't speak for the others, I figured that you wouldn't be able to muster your full strength before it was too late. Clearly, I was wrong," he waves a hand at the gathered Hadingmen, though a certain gleam shines in his eye as he does, "Although, if this is your full strength, then I have unfortunate news for you."
A scoff slips past your lips as you shake your head, "We've already destroyed most of your friends. More then a few feed crows and the rest now kneel with shaven heads and iron-clapped wrists. Splitting up was a mistake you paid for in full."
"What of my cousin?" Another voice calls from the house as a sharp-mouthed man emerges from the shadows. Jordan Sharkmouth stands before you, his lips pulled back to reveal rows of red-stained teeth. Your stomach churns as you realize just where that blood must have come from, from the bodies of your comrades in arms.
A wicked grin spreads across Sten's face as he breaks the silence he'd held up until that point. A length of knotted rope dangles from his palm as the wind picks up and carries his words far and free, "I've got his soul right here!"
"Bastard!" Jordan gnashes his teeth as his fists clench, eyes blazing with the fury of youth. He makes to leap free, but Hooknails' arm lashes out and catches him by the scruff of the neck.
"Heel, dog!" Hooknails' voice thunders as he dashes the younger man against the ground, tossing him back into the darkness. Sten can't hide the smirk on his face as Hooknails turns back towards you.
Hiding your disquiet at the realization that Sten can rip people's souls from their bodies, you tilt your head to the side as you let your eyes narrow, "See, we men of the Hading don't take too kindly to those who'd threaten our homes," you direct a nod towards Sten, who smirks harder, "and that's just a taste of the things we'll do to you, should you drive us to our limits."
Hooknails narrows his eyes, "Where are you going with this?"
"I'm just telling it like it is, laying out the facts for you. We've got too many men with too much skill for you to have a hope of winning, so your only real choice is to cut a deal."
Hooknails is silent for a long time as he considers the options before him. Eventually, he tilts his head to the side as he stares directly at you, "Alright, Halla Skyfire, you've made your point. I'm willing to consider a deal."
He sighs as Jordan makes an angered sound that sees him rewarded with a loud smack.
Well, that explains why everyone is scared of Sten right now. Catching people's souls is definitely 'back away slowly hands in the air' kinda territory.
So...what do we think we can get here? I think that Hooknails will get a rebellion if he actually tries to sacrifice his men, which is bad for the hostages. The lowest we could ask for is just 'release the hostages and we'll let you rejoin your comrades at the boats' but we can probably do better than that.
One possibility is 'release the hostages and we swear to fight you only with an equal number of men, if you win you can retreat to your comrades'. That's actually kind of awful for them as our strongest 20 people are so much more hardcore than most of them, but we might get it to work. Another is single combat, or perhaps a specific number of single combats with the same deal (Halla vs. Hooknails and Sten vs. Sharkmouth would both be likely ones). That's some of my first thoughts but there's probably a better option...
Any deal we make, their side has to release the hostages before we actually do it in exchange for us swearing to honor it. We'll swear to honor it if they release the hostages unharmed, then they release them, then the deal goes through.
Interesting that he seems to think a near wipeout as being "Lol is that the best you've got?"
Why is the Hading apparently a priority target? That's a question we need an answer for, but we're not getting it from him. Because we're basically the boonies as far as Agder as a whole goes, so why is it that he apparently thinks that getting wiped out was a good sign that we're fucked?
Like, are they legit going to go "Well, if nearly 300 men wasn't enough to do serious damage, then good, it means that you're definitely screwed", how the hell is the valley apparently worth throwing that many more dudes at it? It's a nice place to live, but it's got Problems a mile wide that make long term settlement a headache except for the stubborn and strong, and doesn't seem rich enough to warrant making it a priority target?
He's thinking numbers, I think. This was just a raid and he's talking about the war. We may be scary, but send three times as many people against us and we'd be screwed.
Why is the Hading apparently a priority target? That's a question we need an answer for, but we're not getting it from him. Because we're basically the boonies as far as Agder as a whole goes, so why is it that he apparently thinks that getting wiped out was a good sign that we're fucked?
I'm not sure we are, honestly. Not for Rogaland as a whole. But even non-priority targets may come in for more than this force in a war. An army of 1000 may not stop in the Hading, but they might sweep through on their way elsewhere, for example.
[X] Plan: A 'Fair Fight'
-[X] "You let your captives go, and you get a fair fight, you and I have some unresolved business we need to sort out, and I'm sure Mister Sharkmouth wouldn't mind having a crack at recovering his cousin's soul either. You win, you get to leave with any loot you can carry, you lose... Well, you're hardly any worse off than you were before, were you?"
--[X] General idea is to leverage the fact that Sten's effectively got Jordan's cousin hostage as well to force Hooknails into a fork, where he has to accept 1v1s for a chance to survive, rather than let his spite rule him. If he basically goes "Lol fuck you", Jordan's probably going to have had enough.
[X] Plan: A 'Fair Fight'
-[X] "You let your captives go, and you get a fair fight, you and I have some unresolved business we need to sort out, and I'm sure Mister Sharkmouth wouldn't mind having a crack at recovering his cousin's soul either. You win, you get to leave with any loot you can carry, you lose... Well, you're hardly any worse off than you were before, were you?"
This phrasing is really bad. People are loot, so they can carry off people. We need to make sure the hostages are released first no matter what. We also don't need to offer loot at all...escaping with their lives is already a good offer.
Here's my suggestion:
[X] Plan Yes, a 'Fair Fight'
-[X] Suggest that perhaps this could be settled with a fair fight, starting with offering to fight them with an equal number of our own people, but being willing to negotiate on that point and agree to some number of duels. If they win they are free to return back to their ships without the rest of our forces interfering as long as they do so directly.
-[X] Make it very clear that any deal we make, we will first swear an oath to abide by the deal if they release all hostages without further harm, they will also swear to abide by it, then they will release the hostages, then we will carry out the deal. This order of events is not negotiable.
-[X] Again use Cool Off and other Social Tricks as necessary, use Frenzy if we can, and use up to 3 Odr if that seems useful or necessary.
Interesting that he seems to think a near wipeout as being "Lol is that the best you've got?"
Why is the Hading apparently a priority target? That's a question we need an answer for, but we're not getting it from him. Because we're basically the boonies as far as Agder as a whole goes, so why is it that he apparently thinks that getting wiped out was a good sign that we're fucked?
Like, are they legit going to go "Well, if nearly 300 men wasn't enough to do serious damage, then good, it means that you're definitely screwed", how the hell is the valley apparently worth throwing that many more dudes at it? It's a nice place to live, but it's got Problems a mile wide that make long term settlement a headache except for the stubborn and strong, and doesn't seem rich enough to warrant making it a priority target?
From our pov the raid is a serious threat to our home.
The question is what it is from his pov?
Maybe a probing strike?
"throwing everything you have in you can defeat a quarter of a probing strike four times in a row" is very compatible with "you will be SO fucked when the real war comes"
His most important goal is to escape with his head intact, or at least cause as much pain as possible on the way out. He's a spiteful bastard, this Hooknails—which can only be expected from someone who can't pet animals. The lowest he's willing to go is to sacrifice the men he's brought along with him, you get the impression that none are his fellow hirdsmen.
A wicked grin spreads across Sten's face as he breaks the silence he'd held up until that point. A length of knotted rope dangles from his palm as the wind picks up and carries his words far and free, "I've got his soul right here!"
