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Again, a potential issue is that using only Mistery Spells is a crutch that inhibits our magic growth. After all, you do not build up muscle by not lifting heavier weights now, do you? While Mistery staff has been making our magical weights easier.
If anything, Mathilde isn't Mist-y enough. She's in many ways a magical researcher, so one path to getting a higher Magic score may be to create enough Mist-related spells. Boney's often said we can't gain +1 Magic from learning spells from the spellbook anymore. But I think we can get around that by making our own (small) spell book.
 
Itvis a hypothesis I have. It might be wrong, but we do know that the only way to improve at magic is to use more and harder magic. Which only using magic discounted by our staff doesn't count as. Unless we learn that mist cataclysm spell, but we need to learn a lot of BMs for that.

Yes, using harder magic improves our ability to use magic, but I haven't seen anything that suggests that using easy to cast magic makes us weaker?

Completely stopping using magic might, but I haven't seen anyone argue for that, and even with the staff, we're still casting battle magic at "Fiendishly Complex" level. At worst, we're maintaining the status quo, rather than withering our magic ability away.
 
Yes, using harder magic improves our ability to use magic, but I haven't seen anything that suggests that using easy to cast magic makes us weaker?

Completely stopping using magic might, but I haven't seen anyone argue for that, and even with the staff, we're still casting battle magic at "Fiendishly Complex" level. At worst, we're maintaining the status quo, rather than withering our magic ability away.
That is precisely what I meant with keeping the status quo. I don't want status quo, I want Ulgu ascendancy, and one of prerequisites is every Ulgu arcane mark.
 
The Staff of Mistery says "spells that create mists, fogs, vapours and miasmas are one category easier". Fog based battlemagics are explicitly easier than other battlemagics. It would be very strange if that only applied to casting the spell, and not also for creating the spell.
There are several questions here.

1.This update lays out explicitly that there are different tiers of batlemagic: Low/mid/high, edging into cataclysm. Presumably, based off tabletop, low battlemagic is easier to cast than high. Does (should) the staff of Mistery simply reduce all of these tiers of battle magic to fiendishly complex?

2.Assuming that the answer to 1 is yes, only FC. Spell creation is harder than spell learning. How much harder does that make the rolls. PUlling numbers from thin air, if the roll to learn a new FC spell was 80, an existing battlmagic was 100, what level of additional difficulty does creating the spell impose? +10 (still easier than learning existing battlemagic) +20 (same difficulty) +30 (actually harder, but reduced penalties for failure due to staff) etc?

2. Assuming that the answer to 1 is yes, only FC. Well sure - battlemagic miscasts are generally (or at least potentially) worse than regular miscasts. But how many times are you rolling the dice to get there? Learning an existing battlemagic spell requires making one difficult roll.


Creating a new spell might require multiple AP so say 3 or more moderately difficult rolls, each of which has the potential for a miscast and nasty effects.

Moreover, it is considerably easier to persuade the thread to shake loose a +20 from the gambler for one difficult roll than three moderately difficult rolls. So the odds change again.


Why do you assume this, when we've been explicitly told you can always miscast when learning an existing spell? Why exactly is making a new spell (which may be staff-compatible) be more dangerous than learning an existing one?
Because that is how it works. We have always been told that spell creation is considerably more risky than learning existing and already codified spells. Beyond that, creating a spell involves multiple actions and rolls to do so. Learning an existing spell involves making less rolls, so there is less chances for a low roll to occur.

Now there is a legitimate question about if the Staff of Mistery means that the added difficulty from blazing a new magical trail still adds up to less than the difficulty of learning an existing battle magic, but intentional spell creation has always been harder than learning existing spells.
 
That is precisely what I meant with keeping the status quo. I don't want status quo, I want Ulgu ascendancy, and one of prerequisites is every Ulgu arcane mark.

Hmm. I'm inclined towards One + Duel, and then pivoting to snap up a flock of mist monsters for a proper "murder everything over there" BM spell. This is a compelling point though... May revise vote.

[X] [NUMBER] One
[X] [BEHAVIOUR] Charge
[X] [BEHAVIOUR] Duel
 
Why are we talking about the risks of creating mist-based Battle Magic as if it is a completely hypothetical scenario? We already created a mist-based Battle Magic, it's called Rite of Way. If you want to discuss the risks of battle magic spell creation the place to start is looking at the battle magic spell we created.

Rite of Way involved a lot of theoretical work, culminating in a casting roll which lead to the creation of the spell. We were unsatisfied with that version so we worked on it a bit more leading to a second casting roll. That's the risk we took in creating RoW: casting a battlemagic spell (with a first-time casting malus) twice, both times with the benefit of our tower of Dawn and Dusk (which we will obviously not have when casting normal Battle Magic in the field).
 
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That is precisely what I meant with keeping the status quo. I don't want status quo, I want Ulgu ascendancy, and one of prerequisites is every Ulgu arcane mark.
Getting every single Arcane Mark isn't really something we can safely accelerate. We can only get them when miscasting. And as such, we don't really need to learn more Battle Magics to get them at all. Miscasts can happen while enchanting, or while chain casting, or casting while exhausted, or other situations.

I am not opposed to learning some Battle Magics eventually (which is why it'd be perfectly fine IMO if binding just the one Rider still results in it being Battle Magic), but if we have the opportunity to make it more widely accessible, I feel like we should take it.

Because that is how it works. We have always been told that spell creation is considerably more risky than learning existing and already codified spells. Beyond that, creating a spell involves multiple actions and rolls to do so. Learning an existing spell involves making less rolls, so there is less chances for a low roll to occur.

Now there is a legitimate question about if the Staff of Mistery means that the added difficulty from blazing a new magical trail still adds up to less than the difficulty of learning an existing battle magic, but intentional spell creation has always been harder than learning existing spells.
I don't doubt it's harder to make a new spell than to learn an existing one, but that doesn't mean that rolling low in some of those actions would necessarily result in something exploding. Depending at which stage a low roll happens in, it could simply result in "oh actually I guess it can't be done at all by us", or needing revising at an earlier step, or, sometimes, dangerous consequences.

And this still doesn't answer the point of how using staff-compatible spells made by us would in fact literally be safer than using existing non-compatible spells.
 
That assumes making battle magic spells is at most as dangerous as learning them.

Which I disagree with.
I'd say making new battle magic spells is more dangerous than learning already existing ones.

For the front loaded cost sure, making a new mist based battle magic spell probably is more dangerous than learning Pendulum or Pit or such, but in the long term over Mathilde's career, where every time she uses one is equivalent to fiendishly complex and the later standard battle magic? Not to mention combat conditions? I expect very much not.
 
1.This update lays out explicitly that there are different tiers of batlemagic: Low/mid/high, edging into cataclysm. Presumably, based off tabletop, low battlemagic is easier to cast than high. Does (should) the staff of Mistery simply reduce all of these tiers of battle magic to fiendishly complex?

Yes. The staff says "one category easier". Battlemagic is a category by itself, so even though not all battlemagic is created equal, it's all under the same umbrella and gets knocked down to Fiendish.

2.Assuming that the answer to 1 is yes, only FC. Spell creation is harder than spell learning. How much harder does that make the rolls. PUlling numbers from thin air, if the roll to learn a new FC spell was 80, an existing battlmagic was 100, what level of additional difficulty does creating the spell impose? +10 (still easier than learning existing battlemagic) +20 (same difficulty) +30 (actually harder, but reduced penalties for failure due to staff) etc?

2. Assuming that the answer to 1 is yes, only FC. Well sure - battlemagic miscasts are generally (or at least potentially) worse than regular miscasts. But how many times are you rolling the dice to get there? Learning an existing battlemagic spell requires making one difficult roll.

The DC check for Rite of Way was 50, with a -20 "First Time" penalty that was negated by our Tower of Dusk and Dawn. It's not actually mentioned if the Staff benefited us there—maybe the staff doesn't aid the creation of spells at all. We also rolled that check twice, although that's because the first attempt didn't have the effect people wanted, and they wanted to try again, resulting in a reroll (at the cost of an additional AP). Most of the other dice rolls involved in creating the spell were theorycrafting, not casting, and couldn't have resulted in a miscast.

[First cast: Req 50, Learning, 29+28+20(Grey Tower)-20(first time)=57.]

[First cast: Req 50, Learning, 31+28+20(Grey Tower)-20(first time)=59.]
 
Also if we do end up making this spell merely Fiendishly Complex then I want to teach it to Eike at some point before she goes on her journeying.
My thinking is, if we can get it to be sub battle magic, journeyman and new Magister could do this .... in which case the bodyguard could help keep a lot of wizards alive long enough to reach their full potential.
This is way underestimating the difficulty of the spell with one Rider even if we roll well and it ends up being Fiendishly Complex. There is no way a Journeyman or newly graduated Magister has Magic 5 to even cast it, let alone Magic 7 to cast it safely. They are also not going to be trusted enough yet to taught Apparition binding, and probably won't have the skill or resources to capture a Rider in Red. We should really focus on how we can make the spell useful for us, because it is most useful for Grey Wizards like us:
  1. Skilled enough in magic that FC spells are safe, and willing to push into a least low tier battle magic
  2. Trusted enough to be taught Apparition binding
  3. Has the martial skill to capture the Rider, and handle it breaking free on a miscast
I don't have a strong an opinion on what behavior we teach it, because I think we can get good use out of Bodyguard, Charge, or Duel. I do think that the value of having 3 riders outweighs the increased difficulty and risk, even for the Bodyguard.


Even if Handmaidens dont teleport, our ambush version could do it via the summon mechanic. I'm still sad we cant turn them into invisible pouncing cats with iron claws, but even without premium re-skin value they would have nice utility for us
If we end up choosing to turn the Rider into a Bodyguard, I am going to be more interested in making a Shadow Sword spell, and binding a different Apparition as a duelist or assassin than convincing the thread to gather more Riders. I think a duelist would be very helpful in situations like the fight with the Khornate Champion or the Supreme Matriarch duel. I think an assassin would be very valuable for taking out enemy spell casters as @Curtains pointed out here how valuable that would have been on several occasions. There is also enough similarity in the tasks, that a duelist Apparition could probably be used as an anti-spell caster assassin, and vice versa.

I would be interested in Handmaidens or Whispering Darkness as an assassin, though I don't have a good theme for the binding of either in mind, which I think is important. For the duelist, I would prefer Dark Hounds themed as Great Cats, because the notes should make that easier, and the cat theme is fun and distinct enough from Golden Hounds. This is all very speculative anyway because if we go for one Rider, I don't think we will do any more Apparition binding of any kind until after Elfcation and Shadow Sword spell.
 
[X] [BEHAVIOUR] Charge
[X] [NUMBER] Trio
[X] [NUMBER] Lance

We've had fights where we're doing support or hanging around to ambush people, so I'd much rather not have them tied to our location. I also really want to spend the extra AP on developing a version of the spell compatible with our staff, so I'm not worried about it being battle magic tier. (Also we're in a pretty good position to deal with it if it breaks loose, which is the main miscast.)

Also, a charge is much better suited to a horse than staying in one place. For a bodyguard spell something human sized with better sideways mobility and smaller so no ceiling problems would be ideal.
 
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Huh I really had slept on Bodyguard, glad people have noticed how good it is and pushed it to the top. And my reasons for keeping it at One have been said. I assume it'll be a roll to simplify it to FC levels, and I definitely hope we get the option of spending another action trying to do so if we fail that roll. I think it might be worth it.

[x] [BEHAVIOUR] Bodyguard
[x] [NUMBER] One
 
It's not actually mentioned if the Staff benefited us there—maybe the staff doesn't aid the creation of spells at all.
It actually is mentioned - Mathilde says that if not for the staff she definitely would have miscasted (twice):
If you had done it in less ideal conditions, or if you didn't have your Staff to make channeling the fog that much easier, that spell would definitely have ripped itself out of your control.
Once more you're surrounded in a cloud of turbulent fog as you barely manage to finish the spell, and once more you consider yourself quite lucky to have both a staff and a testing chamber perfectly suited for this activity.
 
Huh I really had slept on Bodyguard, glad people have noticed how good it is and pushed it to the top. And my reasons for keeping it at One have been said. I assume it'll be a roll to simplify it to FC levels, and I definitely hope we get the option of spending another action trying to do so if we fail that roll. I think it might be worth it.

[x] [BEHAVIOUR] Bodyguard
[x] [NUMBER] One

Since we are talking about luck here it should be noted, we had the Gambler on this action and it has not fired yet, presumably because our rolls have not needed it, which means that for any roll to make this good enough for FC we benefit from that +20.
 

*Looks at the thread talking about how to combine even more varieties of into bound form, and make other versions of the Red Rider apparition spell*

You joke, but I feel like there's a real possibility Mathilde actually tries this.

Related though: Seeing the narrative of the binding described as two separate soul membranes, within a common shell of Ulgu... Is Mathilde's soul a multicellular organism now? Or is this more like eukaryoticism?

*Looks at Wolf*
*Looks at the Magic Power trait*

Hmmm... The Good Boy is the powerhouse of the soul.

That is precisely what I meant with keeping the status quo. I don't want status quo, I want Ulgu ascendancy, and one of prerequisites is every Ulgu arcane mark.
On a tangent for this topic: In the wake of the Powerstone experiment we used to make a liminal realm I've been wondering: If we can lift and compress a third-gallon of Vitae, could we punch something with our soul?

Of course, despite its material form the AV is basically magic itself in the rawest possible form, so it's entirely possible a substance has to be immensely magical for us to do that, but even that raises the question of: Exactly how magical a substance has to be for us to lift it with our soul alone?

And it occurs to me that we did see Cython use Hysh to pick up and read a book that one time.

At the very least developing/exploring the limits of soul-telekinesis seems like a neat self-improvement route.
 
Not going to lie, I heavily dislike the fact that bodyguard is winning, since I feel that this project was heavily sold by its proponents on the idea that this could fill in the hole in Mathilde's kit that is having some form of offensively used battlemagic that didn't rely on having a handy regiment of our own (and with having a reduced miscast risk by dint of doing the binding, negating the currently eing relitigated 'learning battlemagic is risky' lobby) .

Bodyguard doesn't seem to fit that role at all, and if we are suddenly in danger like that I'd prefer to smoke and mirrors out of there. Mathilde is already a highly mobile master melee combatant with a super sword. Charge, Duel, Ambush, Instincitive all give us new tools. Bodyguard doesn't really do that. It is just one more dude at our side. Maybe I'd find it to be more amazing if Mathilde was terrible in melee, but she isn't. She's really good at it.

It's a small additive to her existing skill/specialty, but it doesn't feel like it would be a major one outside of very niche situations. Wheras the other options all feel like they have a lot more applicability to a number of situations.
A horse bodyguard is really, really good at crowd control, which deals with out big problem of being mobbed by a lot of goons. Also, it makes us terrifying in melee combat, as you have to distracted face a person using a sword style you can't defend against.

It was not sold as us being good at offense. It was always advertised as a more defensive natured thing. And sometimes we have to stay and melee fight.

If we want BM for dealing a lot of damage to a group, the college already has that, we can learn Penumbral Pendulum. So I don't see Charge at trio or higher as being of much use.
 
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