For Sparkbomb, as you say the advantage there is the forced movement...a Sparkbomb could win things right there, but it could also get stopped by a shield and not get him away from us at which point we could get grappled, which would be very bad. He might be able to resiste the forced movement as well, but it seems worth the somewhat lower damage to at least try and move him.

For Sword Guard, I was honestly thinking we maybe layer that in next turn, but with one attack potentially breaking both, the utility of multiple guards is lower than it might be. Like, one is excellent...a second is very likely to get broken by any attack that breaks the first. It's not useless because it gives you two chances to roll better against equal attacks, but it's not anywhere near twice as good and yet costs basically twice as much (ie: most of our dice pool).

And I'm not clear on the range of Sword Strikes. I know it's better than melee, but I was under the impression they can't go as far as Kindle Spinners. I think based on previous usages that they also take dice which means that using them is a speed boost rather than an actual 'more attacks' situation (and our speed is already boosted, making that less needed). That said, both of those impressions could be wrong, so we should probably ask.

@Imperial Fister how exactly do Sword Strikes really work? What's their range limitations, if any, and do you need to assign dice even to the double cost ones used as a follow-up to another attack?



Forceful Lever is possible, if mutually exclusive with Atgeir Bodyguard, we could in that case do Sword Guard instead but then we can't use Sword Strikes. That might be a better option, though I admit Abjorn seems likely to be very difficult to move due to Leverage. Making it part of an attack is a better investment because he's likely easier to damage than to move, so he hopefully still takes damage even if the forced movement fails (and the Skewer Flicks in the plan do 7 damage, almost enough to win the spar on their own), I worry forced movement alone achieves nothing same as I worry damage alone achieves nothing with Sparkbomb above...combining the two gives better odds of something working there.

I think that even if an attack can go through and hit the second Sword Guard/Atgeir Bodyguard, we know there are also "ablative" attacks which make redundancy worthwhile, though it's a crapshoot if Abjorn knows any. Hmmmm....

...As a general point, I also wonder if we've been approaching this the wrong way, and it would be possible to specify in our orders that if an attack breaks through the first Sword Guard/Atgeir Bodyuard, we try not to intercept it with the second, and instead move to our last-ditch defences like Sway/Contested Movement. That would make maintaining two at once lot more generally valuable, because both couldn't get taken out by a single extremely strong attack, and instead one would just get taken out and we'd keep the second one around for stopping medium-strength attacks next turn. Up to Fister to adjudicate of course.

RE: Forceful Lever, I had actually forgotten we couldn't do it at the same time as our Atgeir Bodyguard, I'd assumed we were using Sagaseeker rather than a ghost-atgeir.

RE: Spark-Bomb, I wouldn't worry too much - I don't think anything is letting us win this in a single round; it'd be too narratively unsatisfying.

One thing we should maybe think about is that logically, he will use his Shadow Hugareida to try and get in close. We don't really have anything like a "tripwire" sort of defence do we? We could maybe try forming a bunch of weak Kindle-Spinners and using our "thread" technique to keep them in a sphere around us as proximity mines/sensors? But I doubt our control is good enough for that.
 
Sparkbomb is too lethal to use in a friendly fight, we should avoid it for this spar.

Abjorn can take a Sparkbomb. So could Gabriel...as long as we specified we only used it on him if he's uninjured it'd be okay. On the other hand, it's probably only viable at point-blank, so we don't want to get into its range of efficacy.

Most other people we spar with it probably is too deadly, but Abjorn and Gabriel both have Endurance 16, which is hefty enough that it's workable. We could also use it on Sten or Steinarr if their armor is unbroken to start with.

I think that even if an attack can go through and hit the second Sword Guard/Atgeir Bodyguard, we know there are also "ablative" attacks which make redundancy worthwhile, though it's a crapshoot if Abjorn knows any. Hmmmm....

That's a highly specific circumstance, and if they invest one action in that, they'll likely invest a second. This is maybe an argument for putting up a second ongoing defense at really low dice to make them waste an action destroying it, but not an argument for a serious secondary one.

...As a general point, I also wonder if we've been approaching this the wrong way, and it would be possible to specify in our orders that if an attack breaks through the first Sword Guard/Atgeir Bodyuard, we try not to intercept it with the second, and instead move to our last-ditch defences like Sway/Contested Movement. That would make maintaining two at once lot more generally valuable, because both couldn't get taken out by a single extremely strong attack, and instead one would just get taken out and we'd keep the second one around for stopping medium-strength attacks next turn. Up to Fister to adjudicate of course.

This is a much better argument for a serious secondary defense. I'm not actually sure if that works, though. Like, Sword Guard and Atgeir Bodyguard are semi-autonomous, which is why we can use them as an extra 'layer' of defenses before things like Contested Movement...I don't know if we can just have them not defend us like that. Hmmm.

@Imperial Fister for Tricks like Sword Guard and Atgeir Bodyguard, is this idea viable? Can we have one defend us and the other just not do anything until the attack after the first is broken? Does that work?

Assuming it does work, it's probably worth doing, yeah, at least in this specific situation...there are definitely circumstances where it's not due to dice or Orthstirr costs.

RE: Spark-Bomb, I wouldn't worry too much - I don't think anything is letting us win this in a single round; it'd be too narratively unsatisfying.

I mean, if the rules say we win, we probably do. I think IF can make a good story out of whatever the dice result in, especially on a spar like this. We could easily complain that Abjorn is sandbagging, heal him and try again, for one thing.

One thing we should maybe think about is that logically, he will use his Shadow Hugareida to try and get in close. We don't really have anything like a "tripwire" sort of defence do we? We could maybe try forming a bunch of weak Kindle-Spinners and using our "thread" technique to keep them in a sphere around us as proximity mines/sensors? But I doubt our control is good enough for that.

We do not have a Trick for this I think will work...yet. Brazier Bomb is exactly this in Stoker State, we do want that as soon as the current crop hit Refined, but no way to grab it in time for this spar.
 
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That's a highly specific circumstance, and if they invest one action in that, they'll likely invest a second. This is maybe an argument for putting up a second ongoing defense at really low dice to make them waste an action destroying it, but not an argument for a serious secondary one.

Well, it was a pretty good investment against Gabriel I'd say, but that's because he actually had anti-magic effects which meant that he could slowly chew through our summoned defences. So really that's the bet; for redundancy to be worth it (leaving aside that other idea for a sec), it requires them to have something which can destroy an Atgeir/Sword guard over time without beating the dice.

We know these exist because we've seen both Gabriel and Steinarr use something like this, so it's not that uncommon. But there's also reasons to think neither of them are a representative sample, for obvious reasons, so...

...it's kind of gambling some Orthstirr to hedge against a risk which may or may not exist. Which is actually what most Round 1 defences we pick are doing, I guess.

Assuming it does work, it's probably worth doing, yeah, at least in this specific situation...there are definitely circumstances where it's not due to dice or Orthstirr costs.

Yeah, I think that every action we take in a fight is essentially playing Moneyball; either we're trying to purchase hits against the enemy, or we're buying "insurance" against different risks of enemy hits.

Now we need to decide who is Brad Pitt and who is Jonah Hill lmao

We do not have a Trick for this I think will work...yet. Brazier Bomb is exactly this in Stoker State, we do want that as soon as the current crop hit Refined, but no way to grab it in time for this spar.

Oh, ACTUALLY, I know what we could do here!

We should summon that ball of light, like we did against the Shadow Bear. We know that at least hinders shadow abilities, and especially if we keep it close to us at all times, it will probably make it harder for him to sneak up on us and grab us.

It's 72 Orthstirr which is a lot but... it's not actually that much for us right now. The time to cast it is arguably a bigger potential cost honestly, but I still think it's a worthwhile hedge.
 
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I thought part of Halla's idea for this spar is that Abjorn would be able to feel out the potential of his new Hugareida. She selected an area where Abjorn could maximally use it for that very reason, why would we want to shut it down now?
 
I thought part of Halla's idea for this spar is that Abjorn would be able to feel out the potential of his new Hugareida. She selected an area where Abjorn could maximally use it for that very reason, why would we want to shut it down now?

Hmmm, fair point, I was thinking mostly of what gives us the best chance of winning.

It's unlikely to shut it down completely, and other people will have counters too, so if we're going all School of Hard Knocks about it, there's a argument for greater realism if we use the sun ball, but... yeah, I can see the case for letting him experiment a bit more.

At least until Round 2 or something: if he tags us this round, we could up the difficulty by adding in sunlight.
 
Hmmm, fair point, I was thinking mostly of what gives us the best chance of winning.

It's unlikely to shut it down completely, and other people will have counters too, so if we're going all School of Hard Knocks about it, there's a argument for greater realism if we use the sun ball, but... yeah, I can see the case for letting him experiment a bit more.

At least until Round 2 or something: if he tags us this round, we could up the difficulty by adding in sunlight.
I would say it's fairly unrealistic to expect people to Sunball you - Admittedly Abjorn knows we can cast Sunball, but that's like 2 people.

For me given the stakes for this specific Spar I imagine we want to use it to feel out how Abjorn fights and if there's room for improvement, and also try out new tactics on our part and see what weaknesses they have.
 
Are there any other tricks we want to incorporate into Halla's trick pool? Another thrust type trick, another movement trick besides our emberwing cloak, some more attacks or utility tricks?
 
I would say it's fairly unrealistic to expect people to Sunball you - Admittedly Abjorn knows we can cast Sunball, but that's like 2 people.

For me given the stakes for this specific Spar I imagine we want to use it to feel out how Abjorn fights and if there's room for improvement, and also try out new tactics on our part and see what weaknesses they have.

It's unrealistic to expect everyone to Sunball you, but it's very realistic to expect that everyone you fight will have their own unique abilities which may counter some of your abilities. That's more what I mean by "School of Hard Knocks" - Abjorn should not reasonably expect that other fighters won't have some potential counters to shadow.

That being said, I'm fine holding off on the Sunball for Round One and take your point that this is a training exercise.
 
I would like us to develop a 'fast attack' Slash* trick, and then see if it is possible to develop a trick with an inherent Puncture-like effect (Pierce/Slash). And probably ask Steinarr about his Sword tricks.

*And also so that we have a Slash trick at all.

We should also test out if we can interfere with ranged tricks with Recall-like tricks.

Or at this point, develop a 'Push' counterpart to Recall, really..

===

It's unrealistic to expect everyone to Sunball you, but it's very realistic to expect that everyone you fight will have their own unique abilities which may counter some of your abilities. That's more what I mean by "School of Hard Knocks" - Abjorn should not reasonably expect that other fighters won't have some potential counters to shadow.

That being said, I'm fine holding off on the Sunball for Round One and take your point that this is a training exercise.
I mean.. Abjorn would know that implicitly.

His issue historically has been in not fully exploiting and embracing his own capabilities. Like how he didn't he even develop Leverage until we prodded him about it! For Abjorn quest, this spar should be a time for him to showcase the capabilities of Silhouette - Capabilities we want to know the full extent of when we actually fight enemies for real. Squashing that down would just be unproductive. And rude. Like, Halla has implicitly said 'I want to see the full potential of that new Hugareida you got, impress me!'

Of course after the spar we should work out ways we can exploit Silhouette. Like can we use fire to generate shadows, etc.

===

I wonder if Abjorn knows the 'Stoke Aspect to break Hugareida Confinement' trick?

===

I gather our Frami recovered the Gabriel Spar?
 
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I mean.. Abjorn would know that implicitly.

His issue historically has been in not fully exploiting and embracing his own capabilities. Like how he didn't he even develop Leverage until we prodded him about it! For Abjorn quest, this spar should be a time for him to showcase the capabilities of Silhouette - Capabilities we want to know the full extent of when we actually fight enemies for real. Squashing that down would just be unproductive. And rude. Like, Halla has implicitly said 'I want to see the full potential of that new Hugareida you got, impress me!'

Sure, the general point that I'm making is that there is training value in using counters like the Sunball, because it's the best way to do resistance training. "How do I use my Silhouette when someone has a partial counter? Are there ways I can I use it from further away? If I make more shadow can I still hide myself?" etc. etc. etc.

But that being said, yes, for the first time he's using it, it would be a good idear not to use our Sunball right from the start.
 
We should use talk to Steinarr about various types of Magical plants that he knows of, since he recognised Hearthroot.
 
...it's kind of gambling some Orthstirr to hedge against a risk which may or may not exist. Which is actually what most Round 1 defences we pick are doing, I guess.

High die defenses are hedging against a risk that definitely exists, as are Perfects. Other stuff a bit less so, admittedly, but hedging is not a universal feature of defenses. Everyone has attacks, and everyone with Tricks can have high die attacks.

Yeah, I think that every action we take in a fight is essentially playing Moneyball; either we're trying to purchase hits against the enemy, or we're buying "insurance" against different risks of enemy hits.

Now we need to decide who is Brad Pitt and who is Jonah Hill lmao

I tend to agree, the question is always 'Is what we're buying here worth it?' Which is why it strongly depends whether we can choose not to use one ongoing defense until the other has been dealt with whether layering two of them is actually worth it here.

We should summon that ball of light, like we did against the Shadow Bear. We know that at least hinders shadow abilities, and especially if we keep it close to us at all times, it will probably make it harder for him to sneak up on us and grab us.

As Shard notes, I think we want to give him the opportunity to do his thing, which this is not the best strategy for.

Are there any other tricks we want to incorporate into Halla's trick pool? Another thrust type trick, another movement trick besides our emberwing cloak, some more attacks or utility tricks?

I think we want, in terms of mobility, Hastening for Overland (probably at Rough) so we have a less...overt mobility option than EWC, and an Arrest Momentum Trick for Standstill allowing standing in midair, double-jumps, and turning on a dime by insta-stopping while flying. Neither are urgent, but we do want them.

For utility, we likely want at least one Scouting Trick, more Tactics Tricks as we think of them, a Silver-Tongue Trick specifically for bargaining, and to round out our Weaponcraft and Wildcraft Skill Tricks (Ranged, Spears, Axes, and Traps) since Sten should make those a breeze for the most part. Once we hit Clearwater next turn we also want a Trick for cleaning things and another for conjuring water.

We're definitely also moving towards some sorta Trick with our Recall research and we'll likely want to pursue that until its completed.

For attacks, I actually think we're mostly pretty solid, though a Slash Trick is not out of the question...the big issue being that, per previous commentary from IF, we can't actually use Slash with an atgeir (we can use Chop, Pierce, and Bash, but not Slash...it still contributes to our Combat Pool because we can use it with a sword or sax). We probably want a basic one just so we have something to teach in every Skill, but it's not gonna see a lot of use so it's maybe not a priority. We do likely also want one more Shoot Trick for, like, hip shots at closer ranges, so we can hot swap to our bolt-thrower and shoot people in the face...though again, it's not a high priority in the short term. We probably eventually also want a 'Skewer-Bomb' Trick combining Firebomb Strike and Skewer-Flick Trick to set bombs off inside people, though we can likely fake that for a while by comboing those on the fly (which costs only 8 Orthstirr), and more Hugareida Tricks are a bit of a lower priority for a bit due to Capacity reasons.

If we can figure out a 'just break ongoing defensive constructs' Trick like Steinarr used in the spar, that'd also be very nice, though we can fake it with high die attacks pretty well.

For defenses, we eventually want a second rolled dodge for the same reason we took Backstep when we already have Sidestep: To give them to our Fylgja. It having both offensive and defensive options without meaningfully diminishing our own is starting to be a real option here, and this would round it out in that direction nicely.

Finally, for Styles, we may want (likely only at Rough) an actual grapple-based Glima Trick, and after we hit Refined in our current crop of Stoker State Tricks we likely do want Fire Starter, Brazier Bomb, and, like, Ember Stoke. Tinder Blades and Smoulder Sword are also possible, though lower priority.
 
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Finally, for Styles, we may want (likely only at Rough) an actual grapple-based Glima Trick, and after we hit Refined in our current crop of Stoker State Tricks we likely do want Fire Starter, Brazier Bomb, and, like, Ember Stoke. Tinder Blades and Smoulder Sword are also possible, though lower priority.

Actually, I think we can just learn a second Dodge as a Command Trick.

Because an innately flying predator is going to have ways to evade that aren't constrained by a human body, so it'll probably be better. Just the same, it's likely to have some pretty good attack tricks, at least in the form of a diving attack into a grapple.

Also, it seems we know what Command does when Odr is infused now. It lets you give Standing Orders to your Fylgja. That's really potent. It means we can just order it to evade and disengage if it gets into any trouble even if we aren't taking direct control.
 
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Actually, I think we can just learn a second Dodge as a Command Trick.

Because an innately flying predator is going to have ways to evade that aren't constrained by a human body, so it'll probably be better. Just the same, it's likely to have some pretty good attack tricks, at least in the form of a diving attack into a grapple.

Huh, I wasn't thinking of that, but you're probably right, yeah. Good call. One each attack, defense, and mobility (something involving increased flight speed or acrobatic flying) Trick there are likely solid in the long run.

Also, it seems we know what Command does when Odr is infused now. It lets you give Standing Orders to your Fylgja. That's really potent. It means we can just order it to evade and disengage if it gets into any trouble even if we aren't taking direct control.

Yeah, I caught that but didn't find a good place to bring it up immediately and then spaced doing so. It's very handy if actually using the Fylgja in combat.
 
High die defenses are hedging against a risk that definitely exists, as are Perfects. Other stuff a bit less so, admittedly, but hedging is not a universal feature of defenses. Everyone has attacks, and everyone with Tricks can have high die attacks.

Sure, these risks exist, but it's not certain that an enemy won't just throw more dice than we expect, or anti-perfects, etc.. So I think both of those are still very much hedging; based on what the opponent actually does out of the set of all their possible actions.

Also, we know that things which eat through Sword/Atgeir guards and make redundancy worthwhile definitely exist, because we've seen two of them. They're less common, but it's all a matter of probabilities at the end of the day.

Are there any other tricks we want to incorporate into Halla's trick pool? Another thrust type trick, another movement trick besides our emberwing cloak, some more attacks or utility tricks?
Finally, for Styles, we may want (likely only at Rough) an actual grapple-based Glima Trick, and after we hit Refined in our current crop of Stoker State Tricks we likely do want Fire Starter, Brazier Bomb, and, like, Ember Stoke. Tinder Blades and Smoulder Sword are also possible, though lower priority.

I think we want one Glima trick which is a sort of offensive takedown or throw, with the aim of "get this guy into a submission hold", and then one which is the exact opposite, essentially "someone has you in a bear hug or an arm lock, this trick gets you out of it". We probably don't need either beyond Rough given how rarely it comes up, I agree.
 
Sure, these risks exist, but it's not certain that an enemy won't just throw more dice than we expect, or anti-perfects, etc.. So I think both of those are still very much hedging; based on what the opponent actually does out of the set of all their possible actions.

I mean, true, but high die defenses and perfect defenses are a hedge against such common categories of effects that they're almost always worth it...it's technically insurance, but it's insurance for something you're almost positive will happen pretty regularly.

Also, we know that things which eat through Sword/Atgeir guards and make redundancy worthwhile definitely exist, because we've seen two of them. They're less common, but it's all a matter of probabilities at the end of the day.

Sure, but high die persistent defenses are really expensive compared to a lot of other options. Using them as a hedge against something rare is not usually gonna be worth it unless we know for a fact the enemy has that rare thing. If we can have one waiting in the wings unused until after the other is broken then they're insurance against a much more common situation and become more viable.

I think we want one Glima trick which is a sort of offensive takedown or throw, with the aim of "get this guy into a submission hold", and then one which is the exact opposite, essentially "someone has you in a bear hug or an arm lock, this trick gets you out of it". We probably don't need either beyond Rough given how rarely it comes up, I agree.

I feel like these could maybe be combined into a single Trick, but maybe you're right and it'd need two...
 
I mean, true, but high die defenses and perfect defenses are a hedge against such common categories of effects that they're almost always worth it...it's technically insurance, but it's insurance for something you're almost positive will happen pretty regularly.

I mean, with Perfect Defences, I think it's definitely a hedge, because a lot of opponents at our level have Puncture. That doesn't mean it's a bad bet, it just means you kinda want to spread your bets out by having a high-die defence of some kind and maybe something like Contested Movement as a final line of defence in there as well.

Sure, but high die persistent defenses are really expensive compared to a lot of other options. Using them as a hedge against something rare is not usually gonna be worth it unless we know for a fact the enemy has that rare thing. If we can have one waiting in the wings unused until after the other is broken then they're insurance against a much more common situation and become more viable.

I mean, that sorta depends on what the baseline actually is. So far we've found both Steinarr and Gabriel had ways of eating through our persistent defence, which would imply it's 100%! Obviously I think that's a probably bit high, but it could well be that having some method of eating/eroding magical defences is not that uncommon once you get into the middle leagues of powerful fighters.

But yes, completely agree that being able to avoid having both taken down by one attack definitely makes it a safer bet. Also, if we do a Trick merger like we were planning on, and we can also use both of them to counterattack with when they're not engaged defending us.

I feel like these could maybe be combined into a single Trick, but maybe you're right and it'd need two...

It would be good if it could be a general trick, honestly, I guess they're both just an application of grappling and trying to gain/break the other guy's hold. We should find out/ask Fister.
 
Oh! I forgot one other Trick we want: We want to Alloy Firestorm and pick up a very large AoE before the war arc. That's very doable, though.

I mean, with Perfect Defences, I think it's definitely a hedge, because a lot of opponents at our level have Puncture. That doesn't mean it's a bad bet, it just means you kinda want to spread your bets out by having a high-die defence of some kind and maybe something like Contested Movement as a final line of defence in there as well.

It's worth mentioning that having Puncture and using it right off the bat or on all attacks are different things. Most people don't open up with Puncture on every single attack, because it's expensive, which means Perfect defenses are usually a very solid option to have in your pocket, though as you say, one where you also want high die defenses in place to deal with those things that get through them.

I mean, that sorta depends on what the baseline actually is. So far we've found both Steinarr and Gabriel had ways of eating through our persistent defence, which would imply it's 100%! Obviously I think that's a probably bit high, but it could well be that having some method of eating/eroding magical defences is not that uncommon once you get into the middle leagues of powerful fighters.

But yes, completely agree that being able to avoid having both taken down by one attack definitely makes it a safer bet. Also, if we do a Trick merger like we were planning on, and we can also use both of them to counterattack with when they're not engaged defending us.

Gabriel's was taking a while. Looking back I dunno if doubling up was even the right play there, though it was admittedly the safe one, so I don't regret it. And I suspect it is fairly rare if only because they're hardly ubiquitous and 'hit it with a bigger stick' is a valid solution to them...like, they are not something you need a Trick to deal with, so having a specific Trick for them is gonna be a tad unusual at our level or below. By Steinarr's level it's gonna be more typical, but that's Steinarr's level.

It would be good if it could be a general trick, honestly, I guess they're both just an application of grappling and trying to gain/break the other guy's hold. We should find out/ask Fister.

Yeah, fair. I suspect both are options, with the more specialized Tricks better in their respective areas but the general one workable.
 
could it be worth it to hire a skald to be on standby when halla does important and cool things? like for example the reforging of sagaseeker or the slaying of the thousands of trolls. the skald could theoretically increase the osthirr gains from epic actions or it could result in new kennings for halla and co.
 
could it be worth it to hire a skald to be on standby when halla does important and cool things? like for example the reforging of sagaseeker or the slaying of the thousands of trolls. the skald could theoretically increase the osthirr gains from epic actions or it could result in new kennings for halla and co.

Skalds are gonna be expensive. It's maybe potentially worth it (depending on price) if we're gonna knowingly go do something epic, but we'd need to be knowingly gonna do something epic. I don't think forging things counts because that's not exciting to watch...we also don't actually want people to know all of Sagaseeker's secrets or how powerful it is if we can avoid it.

We don't need to, they just show up on their own.

They do, but not always and Kings do hire them for basically this purpose, so it's not an unreasonable idea in theory, though I suspect prices are high enough to make it an issue in practice.
 
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