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ok but what are the eonir scouting for that is a threat? nordland? if we go scouting there its gonna be baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. beastmen? got pretty much wiped out in their part of the forest.
the eonir dont care about anything but their forest and thats currently pretty safe from what ive gathered. (hell i dont actually know if the eonir are that great at scouting outside of their perfect forest. probably but they might have forgotten stuff)

Beastmen spontaneously regenerate their numbers every time Morrisleb shines too brightly on some unfortunate animal. Even if you somehow killed every single one in a region a year later there'll be more of them.

Similarly, new Forest Goblins literally spring out of the ground.

There's a perpetual need to keep scouring the forest to keep these threats managed.
 
That's a fair point, but we may be able to pay the Eonir in something other than gold.

If Mathilde spends an action on it, it may be possible to train her and Eike in scouting in the field, with her assisting the people teaching her by killing or disrupting the enemies they're scouting for.

Mathilde, particularly post-Red Rider binding, would be a huge force multiplier to an Eonir warband.

Another option that might kill multiple birds with one stone is to ask Belegar/Kazador to lend Mathilde some rangers to assist her and Eike hunt down the Iron Orcs and show them the tricks of the trade on the way, as part of their support of the Waystone Project.
Last time the Iron Orcs came up Boney said that it's a Mathilde solo action. It won't make sense to bring Kazador's dwarves or Eike along.
If Bretonnian Knights can't find them, then they either have some way to know they're coming and avoid them, or they're hidden from mundane senses. So the straightforward approach requires searching with speed, stealth, and really good long-range Magesight. It's hard to see that as anything but a solo job for Mathilde.
Regarding the Eonir, Kazador is a personal friend and the dwarves are pretty fond of Mathilde, we don't have that kind of connection with the Eonir. Besides, Eonir scouts are probably mostly Forestborn, and Mathilde has spent most of her time in Laurelorn inside Tor Lithanel. I suppose we could take the 'Explore a Ward' action for the Ward of Storm, their leader seems very pro-contact and they're apparently heavily militarized, that'll finish our Eonir, Advanced diplomacy skill and if we make a good impression maybe we could use that connection for some joint scouting. Hard to see when we'll be able to shake off the AP for that, though.
 
Beastmen spontaneously regenerate their numbers every time Morrisleb shines too brightly on some unfortunate animal. Even if you somehow killed every single one in a region a year later there'll be more of them.

Similarly, new Forest Goblins literally spring out of the ground.

There's a perpetual need to keep scouring the forest to keep these threats managed.
and the forest of laurelorn is a magical tangle of tripwire, outposts, barbed wire, scouts and what not. their own forest is under their control. it was mostly the edges where humans and beastmen ranged and those are pretty under control now too i think.
 
Beastmen spontaneously regenerate their numbers every time Morrisleb shines too brightly on some unfortunate animal. Even if you somehow killed every single one in a region a year later there'll be more of them.

Similarly, new Forest Goblins literally spring out of the ground.

There's a perpetual need to keep scouring the forest to keep these threats managed.

So the solution to the Beastman problem is to fire the Eye of Gazul at Morrslieb
 
self-serving for profit stuff with their powers
And Eike is utterly convinced that trade is good and vital for the health of the Empire, and presumably has the knowledge, education and conviction to argue her beliefs. I think it wouldn't be a bad thing for her to touch base with the Bursar, update each other's expectations yanno? (Not like the Grey College doesn't already know that about her, but a conversation after an applicable real life experience might still be useful).
 
So the solution to the Beastman problem is to fire the Eye of Gazul at Morrslieb
im thinking morrslieb wins that fight... handily... that moon is too evil to die easily and when it dies it will rain onto the earth and kill it anyway...
remember the desire of Morrslieb to crash into the earth is so great that the elves have to ship their queen around the world to do a ritual that keeps him up there...
 
Last time the Iron Orcs came up Boney said that it's a Mathilde solo action. It won't make sense to bring Kazador's dwarves or Eike along.
Eike isn't backup though, she's apprentice. She can basically be attached to Mathilde wherever. Now sure, she's less sneaky, but...

...alright, maybe the only meaningful thing she'd be able to do is explore Bretonnia and get acquainted with yet another foreign culture. Still neat tho.
 
Last time the Iron Orcs came up Boney said that it's a Mathilde solo action. It won't make sense to bring Kazador's dwarves or Eike along.

That's true, but I could see a niche for Eike's intuitive Windsight and possibly dwarven magic resistance - and Kazador's rangers' immense familiarity with greenskins.
 
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Remember that the weird ambiguity of the Vow of Poverty is to discourage young Grey Wizards from doing self-serving for profit stuff with their powers while Magisters already went through a loyalty test and are deemed trusted enough for that promotion in the first place. Eike, who grew up with a silver spoon in her mouth, is the heir to one of the greatest contemporary trade companies in the Empire, and is apprenticed to "Why do all these fish keep jumping aboard" Mathilde, founder of said trade company, has much less wiggle room in front of the Bursar.

The order does not actually care about being self serving, it pretends to, mostly to outsiders, but what really matters is that none of its magisters use their powers to screw over other imperial citizens. The only people who would be screwed over by any kind of Lothern deal would be Marianburgers, otherwise known as 'The Bursar might give her e medal for meritorious service'. :V
 
The order does not actually care about being self serving, it pretends to, mostly to outsiders, but what really matters is that none of its magisters use their powers to screw over other imperial citizens. The only people who would be screwed over by any kind of Lothern deal would be Marianburgers, otherwise known as 'The Bursar might give her e medal for meritorious service'. :V

There are some interesting potential synergies with the RoW causeway project. If there's a decent trade route from Middenland to Tor Lithanel, then the latter could become a rival to Marienberg for the Ulthuan trade.

This may allay economic fears that some of the Great Houses have about being outcompeted by Ulthuan's craftsmen, as they can profit as intermediaries in that trade instead.
 
The order does not actually care about being self serving, it pretends to, mostly to outsiders, but what really matters is that none of its magisters use their powers to screw over other imperial citizens. The only people who would be screwed over by any kind of Lothern deal would be Marianburgers, otherwise known as 'The Bursar might give her e medal for meritorious service'. :V
it does care about its magisters learning early on not to do the "bad money thing" and so stern words might still be had because its a bad example. it doesnt matter who gets hurt more that it was done for personal profit.
 
Eike isn't backup though, she's apprentice. She can basically be attached to Mathilde wherever. Now sure, she's less sneaky, but...

...alright, maybe the only meaningful thing she'd be able to do is explore Bretonnia and get acquainted with yet another foreign culture. Still neat tho.
Oh, she should definitely join the Damsel recruitment for the negotations. Xeon-affinity isn't just about non-humans, it's about foreign cultures, and Bretonnia is very much that.
This may allay economic fears that some of the Great Houses have about being outcompeted by Ulthuan's craftsmen, as they can profit as intermediaries in that trade instead.
The charcoal trade, the ingots trade the RoW road will allow, and the ore trade (if we manage to make it happen) will all make crafting at scale much easier. That, along with the realization that the Empire isn't actually trading with Ulthuan for elven items but Middenland would very much like to buy some, might be enough to pull House Miriel to our side. The only thing I can see that might still keep them in the isolationist block is the fear that even a small amount of Ulthuan-made items making it to Tor Lithanel will be enough to hurt their prestige, but really the way to solve that is to make them realize that being anti-Marienburg is fully compatible with being pro-Empire.
 
I don't think she was a former Ice Witch; I think she was an Ice Wotch simultaneously both being a vampire. There's nothing stopping a vampire from using Ice Magic as far as I know, and vampires can 'safely' learn multiple Lores.
Just for clarity, @Boney did you ever weigh in on this topic? Kattarin's descendants (Kalashinivik) had a royal bloodline of 'northern snow and southern sand' which might be an allusion to being descended from an Ice Witch, but northern snow could just be a poetic term for Kislev in general, rather than an association with ice magic. Quick search of the wiki's doesn't give any greater insight.

By the time the Karaz Ankor got a Queen of a major Hold, the wording to announce a Council of Kings had become Tradition.
Apologies if this is a burdening world-building question, in which case please feel free to ignore:
Was the Karaz Ankor's royal succession gender neutral and they just hadn't had a prominent queen before the tradition? Or did it used to favor male primogeniture? With Dwarven birth ratio skewing heavily towards males, I could see argument for either.

Also some questions with actual quest relevance:
- Do we know if the Dwarves looted Elven books during the War of Vengeance that we could potentially seek out?
- Is the Ranaldian bounty system anonymous and secure enough for Mathilde to seek out illegal/heretical/chaotic/etc books for the purpose of safeguarding them under lock and key?
 
Oh, she should definitely join the Damsel recruitment for the negotations. Xeon-affinity isn't just about non-humans, it's about foreign cultures, and Bretonnia is very much that.

The charcoal trade, the ingots trade the RoW road will allow, and the ore trade (if we manage to make it happen) will all make crafting at scale much easier. That, along with the realization that the Empire isn't actually trading with Ulthuan for elven items but Middenland would very much like to buy some, might be enough to pull House Miriel to our side. The only thing I can see that might still keep them in the isolationist block is the fear that even a small amount of Ulthuan-made items making it to Tor Lithanel will be enough to hurt their prestige, but really the way to solve that is to make them realize that being anti-Marienburg is fully compatible with being pro-Empire.
Also being the new trade hub for ulthuan would definitely make the crafting houses mad. That would just directly undermine their position.
 
I still think that the best way to train Mathilde's scouting is to do some actions that are likely to require scouting, such as the Forest of Shadows nexus action and the Iron Orcs investigation. So Mathilde should get that last skill point in Scouting as soon as a Father turn is possible, which should happen *checks notes* at turn 44 at the earliest. So yeah, any day now!
While I want to agree with this, Scouting has been at 2/3 for a long time. (I want to say since we finished the K8P expedition, but I can't seen to find where it reached 2/3 progress.) It would take an adventure action that consisted of lots and lots of scouting for the skill to tick up, I believe, and not just an adventure where Mathilde does a little scouting incidentally.
By the time the Karaz Ankor got a Queen of a major Hold, the wording to announce a Council of Kings had become Tradition.
One day, there will be a Council of Kings where the Queens will outnumber the Kings.
 
Remember that the weird ambiguity of the Vow of Poverty is to discourage young Grey Wizards from doing self-serving for profit stuff with their powers while Magisters already went through a loyalty test and are deemed trusted enough for that promotion in the first place. Eike, who grew up with a silver spoon in her mouth, is the heir to one of the greatest contemporary trade companies in the Empire, and is apprenticed to "Why do all these fish keep jumping aboard" Mathilde, founder of said trade company, has much less wiggle room in front of the Bursar.
Hence why she needs the practice on explaining herself early. :V
 
Leaving aside the potential hilarity of leaving a trade empire heir in Lothern, we really shouldn't consider taking Eike to Nagarythe. It's an absolutely cursed land which has seen the worst of a millennia-long war that is still ongoing and any Druchii and Nagarythians in the area will have spent their long lives honing their murderous and sneaky skills against one another. I'm not sure I want to subject Eike to being around Ulthuan's foremost group of "guerilla torture-assassins".

I'm all for bloodying Eike as part of a scouting training action, though I think next turn we'd only have room for it if we put everyone on the Foundation, which feels to me like a potential 'too many cooks' situation.

The order does not actually care about being self serving, it pretends to, mostly to outsiders, but what really matters is that none of its magisters use their powers to screw over other imperial citizens.
That's basically it, but it serves a lot more purposes than that too.

Things the Vow of Poverty does:
- Reassures the citizens of the Empire that the extremely abusable Shadow Magic is in the hands of a group that has strict rules against abusing it.
- Makes it so that if it does appear that someone is abusing it, the first reaction of influential people that hear of it would be to dob them in to the Grey Order, making them able to punish or reassure as appropriate. This makes it so that any negative rumours of Grey Wizards reach the ears of the Grey Order very quickly.
- Gives the Grey Order a way to police its members that does not set uncomfortable precedents for the other Orders.
- Gives the Grey Order a relatively benign pretence to start rooting through any Grey Wizard's affairs, even if they're suspected of something much worse than economic malfeasance.
- Gives the Grey Order a great deal of control over who Grey Wizards end up working for, as anything even slightly amiss can be investigated as potentially running afoul of the Vow.
- Makes Grey Wizards think hard before accepting any job, forcing them at least consider it in terms of what benefit it provides to the Empire, and if there is none, they have to either turn the job down or make it provide some benefit.
- Filters out any potential Wizards who are motivated by a desire for wealth, who might otherwise find the Wind of being extremely sneaky and deceptive very attractive.
- Makes it so the Grey Order, which does not have hugely profitable cash cows like alchemy for the Golds or fortune telling for the Celestials, is able to ensure that its Wizards are properly paying the tithe.
- Puts a test of character in front of all Journeymen Grey Wizards. If they strictly abide by the Vow, then they're suitable for one set of jobs. If they're able to negotiate its loopholes without crossing any lines or raising any stinks, then they're a good fit for a different set of jobs. If they chafe at it and fall to temptation, then better they fall to the temptation of money now than the temptations of the Chaos Gods a decade down the line.

The Vow does seem deceptive, ambiguous, and inconsistent. It's meant to, because that's what Ulgu is. Grey Wizards spend ten years learning how to think like Ulgu before they're let out into the world. Thinking their way through the byzantine snarl of the Vow of Poverty is as natural to them as casting the spells of Shadow Magic.

Things it is not:
- It is not a vow to exist only in a state of poverty.
- It is not a absolutist deontological taboo against ever taking any action that might disadvantage any citizen of the Empire.
- It is not a signed death warrant for every Grey Wizard just in case the Order needs it.
- It is not a vow against exploiting people with magic, only against doing so for the wrong reasons.
The Vow is a very flexible mechanism for the Grey Order to keep a watch on their wizards not doing things they're not supposed to and ensure loyalty toward the general good Empire over their wallets, which is a very real concern given how incredibly easy Ulgu can make it to fool people.
 
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Also being the new trade hub for ulthuan would definitely make the crafting houses mad. That would just directly undermine their position.

Not if tariffs were set to maintain their competitive advantage, which they could be.

The big trade items probably aren't Ulthuani goods, but ones imported by elven merchants from Araby, the Southlands and the Far East.
 
While I want to agree with this, Scouting has been at 2/3 for a long time. (I want to say since we finished the K8P expedition, but I can't seen to find where it reached 2/3 progress.) It would take an adventure action that consisted of lots and lots of scouting for the skill to tick up, I believe, and not just an adventure where Mathilde does a little scouting incidentally.
Iron Orcs is probably all scouting. It's about going around in hostile territory and trying to spot enemies in the distance without being spotted. That's pretty much the definition of scouting, isn't it? The Forest of Shadows may involve scouting or it may not, I'm still not sure how it's going to go down exactly, but really I think the Iron Orcs will probably be enough to give the skillpoint on their own.
 
Iron Orcs is probably all scouting. It's about going around in hostile territory and trying to spot enemies in the distance without being spotted. That's pretty much the definition of scouting, isn't it? The Forest of Shadows may involve scouting or it may not, I'm still not sure how it's going to go down exactly, but really I think the Iron Orcs will probably be enough to give the skillpoint on their own.
Yeah, I agree. The only problem I have with bringing Eike is that she isn't as fast, or as sneaky as we can be. So if it comes to a confrontation we would have to protect her from black Orks and that's a dicey proposition...
 
Just for clarity, @Boney did you ever weigh in on this topic? Kattarin's descendants (Kalashinivik) had a royal bloodline of 'northern snow and southern sand' which might be an allusion to being descended from an Ice Witch, but northern snow could just be a poetic term for Kislev in general, rather than an association with ice magic. Quick search of the wiki's doesn't give any greater insight.

Like all the rulers of Kislev, Kattarin was descended from the Khan-Queens, but from a modern perspective it's hard to tell if she was actually an Ice Witch or if that was just a cover to explain away some of the more apparent signs of Vampirism.

Apologies if this is a burdening world-building question, in which case please feel free to ignore:
Was the Karaz Ankor's royal succession gender neutral and they just hadn't had a prominent queen before the tradition? Or did it used to favor male primogeniture? With Dwarven birth ratio skewing heavily towards males, I could see argument for either.

The only canon information on that is the old gross stuff that said that Queens happened sometimes but it was only a temporary measure until she could get a nice sensible husband to take over. Considering the list of canon Kings is way too male-skewed to be explained by just a 25% chance of the firstborn being a daughter, I'd say that most Royal Clans are semi-Salic, where women inherit only if they don't have any male siblings that could inherit, with Karak Norn being an exception.

Also some questions with actual quest relevance:
- Do we know if the Dwarves looted Elven books during the War of Vengeance that we could potentially seek out?

You do not know.

- Is the Ranaldian bounty system anonymous and secure enough for Mathilde to seek out illegal/heretical/chaotic/etc books for the purpose of safeguarding them under lock and key?

Try it and find out.
 
I don't think that we actually need to spend extra effort to have Eike fight something. It's a dangerous world and with mage armor she is better able to handle it then most people.

Just send her on tasks that are actually useful and use the extra time saved to tutor her.
 
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Since we are considering training actions I would like to add the Baba into the conversation. No idea what she could train Mathilde in - probably not scouting - but she is a really big fish who might genuinely be a bit bored due to being the opposite of a local.
 
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