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NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

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Anyway, I might be missing something butttt

What's the difference between Reinforce and Hone? Hone can be used all all actions, while Reinforce is only defensive actions?
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If we want to Retcon Punching Downward, I would replace it with a Anti-Crowd Twist. It works for someone who's mercing for Dwarves.
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Can we spend Odr on Slipstream to move even faster?
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Are we trying out the Blackhand Bluff for this?
 
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Shard said:
Anyway, I might be missing something butttt

What's the difference between Reinforce and Hone? Hone can be used all all actions, while Reinforce is only defensive actions?
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You have to use Hone about equally on all applicable actions. The same is true of Reinforce. With fewer actions for Reinforce to hit it's easier to stack multiple instances without being too ridiculous an Orthstirr cost. This is mostly relevant on attack spam/defense spam situations, but those are pretty common in the Norse meta.

Shard said:
Can we spend Odr on Slipstream to move even faster?
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Ooh. Good question. @Imperial Fister can we do this? We couldn't spend more than 1 Odr due to Gale being only level 1, but that'd still be worth it right now.

Mystic Pentagram said:
I don't think Punch Down should be retconned. Is not THAT OP.
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It's less that it's OP and more that it thematically doesn't actually fit what Twists are supposed to be. The more powerful person winning is not a twist in a story, it is the expected result.

We also don't actually know what it does, so we don't know if it's OP or not.
 
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I don't know, the underdog triumphing is as much of a trope as vice versa. I'm also not sure Twists are strictly limited to the unexpected. Dressed in Rags is just like, the Odysseus thing, not an unexpected development.
 
I mean, there is the unbeatable boss fight trope, but they usually come with a 'You don't die' clause to them, usually manifesting in someone arriving to bail you out.

In this case reinforcing dwarves I suppose.

It could also be a twist that gives more d based on number of enemies or somesuch, and the drunk dwarves count.
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If we do the Blackhand Bluff, he should do the bluff before we take over and stoke our Aspects, we know our Aspects shift when Blackhand is in control or takes over.
 
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KreenWarrior said:
I don't know, the underdog triumphing is as much of a trope as vice versa. I'm also not sure Twists are strictly limited to the unexpected. Dressed in Rags is just like, the Odysseus thing, not an unexpected development.
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Having the beggar dressed in rags turn out to be important may be a common trope, but it's still not the default...most beggars are not secretly important. Twists allow something unusual to happen because it fits story logic, they don't reinforce the expected and normal result that would happen without story logic. A Twist that just makes what would happen anyway happen is boring...and a Twist to make you win against a single person less powerful than you is exactly that. Just reinforcing the expected result.
 
I don't agree. I can actually think of the perfect moment for this - when Aizen stops Ichigo's theme song with a single finger in Bleach. Also in a cultivation novel, the Young Master who throws his weight around oppressing those below him.

It's going above and beyond just "being stronger.". It's the move of an asshole villain who specializes in stomping those beneath him. It makes sense to me.

Edit: We've fought stronger opponents than us before. Getting bodied like this... No one was expecting it. Doesn't that make it a twist?
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
This is a fair point, on the other hand, if the chain works how we think, two Spark-Bombs probably don't even break through his armor plus the chain. It'd be damage, sure, but not enough on its own, and we'd only have two shots at most from this tactic.
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@Imperial Fister
With moving tricks like Sparkbomb or KS, when using multiple instances, can we send them on slightly indirekt paths so that they arrive at the same time?



To the punching down debate, far from a fan of this enemy, but:
Alectai said:
For fuck's sake though. "Punching Down" is a Twist? He had a deep and emotional experience that he carries with him forever, that exclusively makes him even better at killing people weaker than he is?
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Alectai said:
It's nor demoralizing that we're losing, so to speak. It's demoralizing that he prepared to fight Dwarves but still had enough flex to have a build that conveniently fucks us over in the process. Punching Down is such an absolutely stupid idea from the story-based Norse paradigm that it literally boggles the mind that he can do it.
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
s less that it's OP and more that it thematically doesn't actually fit what Twists are supposed to be. The more powerful person winning is not a twist in a story, it is the expected result.

We also don't actually know what it does, so we don't know if it's OP or not.
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It could also be about having enemies weaker than you outnumber you so heavily that the sum of their power is enough to trigger Punching Up.
If the drunk Ducklings count as their fullpowered selves despite being too drunk to do something usefull.

Would be extremely fitting for a merc specialized in fighting dwarves.
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Twists allow something unusual to happen because it fits story logic, they don't reinforce the expected and normal result. A Twist that just makes what would happen anyway happen is boring...and a Twist to make you win against a single person less powerful than you is exactly that. Just reinforcing the expected result.
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A Twist that counters a Twist could make sense, though.
 
KreenWarrior said:
I don't agree. I can actually think of the perfect moment for this - when Aizen stops Ichigo's theme song with a single finger in Bleach. Also in a cultivation novel, the Young Master who throws his weight around oppressing those below him.

It's going above and beyond just "being stronger.". It's the move of an asshole villain who specializes in stomping those beneath him. It makes sense to me.
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The latter are explicitly trash who exist only to make the Hero look better, and the former was explicitly a moment intended to establish that he was really bad, and even then, he didn't actually kill anyone.

If there is a Punching Down Twist, then it probably forbids him from actually finishing the subject of it off. A big advantage in your first encounter with a new but inferior opponent to let you feel out their build, but at the cost of guaranteeing that they get to walk away and learn from the experience. Which is doubly dangerous because we also have the Learning from Defeat Twist.
 
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Do we know how much Hamr this guy has? Or how old he is?
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Alectai said:
If there is a Punching Down Twist, then it probably forbids him from actually finishing the subject of it off. A big advantage in your first encounter with a new but inferior opponent to let you feel out their build, but at the cost of guaranteeing that they get to walk away and learn from the experience. Which is doubly dangerous because we also have the Learning from Defeat Twist.
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Such a twist would normally be used a teacher teaching their student. Narratively anyway, the trickster mentor beating the crap out of the hero is a very storied tradition.

In which case the true name of the Twist would be like "Twist: Elder's Lesson" or somesuch.

...It would explain why he's thinking of not killing us, if his Twist forbids it.
 
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KreenWarrior said:
I don't agree. I can actually think of the perfect moment for this - when Aizen stops Ichigo's theme song with a single finger in Bleach. Also in a cultivation novel, the Young Master who throws his weight around oppressing those below him.

It's going above and beyond just "being stronger.". It's the move of an asshole villain who specializes in stomping those beneath him. It makes sense to me.
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Something being a Trope and being a Twist are not the same thing. A Twist is when the trope is something unexpected to at least the more naive people hearing the story. A powerful person winning is only unexpected under very specific circumstances and these really aren't them except from the very narrow perspective of Halla as the protagonist, which is not the perspective Twists should be operating under...they should all treat the person who has them as the protagonist.

KreenWarrior said:
Edit: We've fought stronger opponents than us before. Getting bodied like this... No one was expecting it. Doesn't that make it a twist?
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I mean...we weren't expecting it because we didn't expect a guy of this caliber to be here in the first place, not because we didn't know people like that who could wreck us could exist. If there's a Twist involved in this particular narrative it'd be an 'Enter Stage Left' style twist that someone this badass is here more than anything.

Imperial Fister said:
I don't see why not. I think it's a bit of a waste, but you can absolutely do it.
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It's not a waste if we need both to succeed. That's not that's the case this round, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Shard said:
Do we know how much Hamr this guy has? Or how old he is?
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His Hamr is on par with ours per the tactical analysis (which says he's as strong as us, but faster...presumably a lot of shapeshifting slots in speed). His age is unclear.
 
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Alectai said:
The latter are explicitly trash who exist only to make the Hero look better, and the former was explicitly a moment intended to establish that he was really bad, and even then, he didn't actually kill anyone.
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Well, the only way to prove whether we're trash or the hero is to progress the story. Halla isn't the one true protagonist, our plot armor is long gone.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
His Hamr is on par with ours per the tactical analysis (which says he's as strong as us, but faster...presumably a lot of shapeshifting slots in speed). His age is unclear.
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That doesn't make sense. He's a lot older than us. Hamr 7 is very low for someone his age and power, and he probably already has Hugr 9 if he has Frenzy 9, which would have needed 3 Shapecrafted Fasts too. Hamr isn't just strength either, too.
 
Shard said:
That doesn't make sense. He's a lot older than us. Hamr 7 is very low for someone his age and power, and he probably already has Hugr 9 if he has Frenzy 9, which would have needed 3 Shapecrafted Fasts too. Hamr isn't just strength either, too.
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Hamr 7 is listed as the minimum for 30 year olds. Someone having that in their 20s is not unusual, and we've had no indications he's older than that. He could have more, but he doesn't have to if he's focused on other stuff (and the multiple Hugareida, extensive shapecrafting, rune lore, and heavy investment in Frenzy suggest he may indeed have done so).

And we actually don't know that Frenzy is limited like that. Odr is involved in its creation, but when granted by a shapecrafter I highly doubt it's granted by Hugr Infusion the way we do it...it basically can't be in quantity, given how breaking through Realms works and the fact that breaking through is deadly. Like, Hugr Infusion grants Frenzy but I seriously doubt that when a shapecrafter gives you Frenzy they're infusing your Hugr. And yes, he likely has a bunch of shapecrafted Fasts...I suspect he has had a lot more shapecrafting than that done to him, frankly. The hooks in his hands are indicative of being very into body modification.

And yeah, Hamr isn't just strength, but tactical analyses have usually used that particular shorthand for whether someone's Hamr is above ours. It's certainly indicative that if it's higher, it's not by a whole lot.
 
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Should we be concerned about him reacting differently to Odr-infused tricks than ones which aren't?

Something that concerns me is that Sparkbomb might not work well with Contested Movement. We're following a strategy where we're zooming across the field, i.e well out of melee range. That might make Sparkbomb unusable unless he's getting in close to melee us, when he seems to be doing ranged attack spam.
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Hamr 7 is listed as the minimum for 30 year olds. Someone having that in their 20s is not unusual, and we've had no indications he's older than that. He could have more, but he doesn't have to if he's focused on other stuff (and the multiple Hugareida, extensive shapecrafting, rune lore, and heavy investment in Frenzy suggest he may indeed have done so).

And we actually don't know that Frenzy is limited like that. Odr is involved in its creation, but when granted by a shapecrafter I highly doubt it's granted by Hugr Infusion the way we do it...it basically can't be in quantity, given how breaking through Realms works and the fact that breaking through is deadly. Like, Hugr Infusion grants Frenzy but I seriously doubt that when a shapecrafter gives you Frenzy they're infusing your Hugr. And yes, he likely has a bunch of shapecrafted Fasts...I suspect he has had a lot more shapecrafting than that done to him, frankly. The hooks in his hands are indicative of being very into body modification.

And yeah, Hamr isn't just strength, but tactical analyses have usually used that particular shorthand for whether someone's Hamr is above ours. It's certainly indicative that if it's higher, it's not by a whole lot.
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I mean, Frenzy has to be limited by something, otherwise it becomes to easy to stack ridiculous amounts of Frenzy on a person.
 
Shard said:
Should we be concerned about him reacting differently to Odr-infused tricks than ones which aren't?

Something that concerns me is that Sparkbomb might not work well with Contested Movement. We're following a strategy where we're zooming across the field, i.e well out of melee range. That might make Sparkbomb unusable unless he's getting in close to melee us, when he seems to be doing ranged attack spam.
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It makes the Contested Movement test the to-hit roll, so if it works at all, he should get hit by it. It may just be declared not to work in a ranged duel like that at all in which case I guess we don't spend for the attacks, but if it works at all as a counterattack he can't then dodge it.

Shard said:
I mean, Frenzy has to be limited by something, otherwise it becomes to easy to stack ridiculous amounts of Frenzy on a person.
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I'm sure there are limits, but I wouldn't assume they are strictly his Hugr score. They could be, but it's a huge assumption.
 
Imperial Fister said:
You are right. Punching Down is a mistake on my part and will not be making any future appearances — which does include the next round . Sorry everyone.
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Then I think that "Punching Up" Twist was also a mistake, but a more subtle one, and should be changed too.

Hidden power that other characters don't see is a classic xianxia subject, but it's important to its function that the characters are the ones who are mistaken so the readers can know what the relative power levels really are. Calling something "Punching Up" is an implicit claim that the power should in some OOC sense be hidden from the real power ranking. It makes a mockery of the idea of a "real" power ranking by trying to metagame itself. Any time Halla wins through "Punching Up", she was punching down. The name is misleading. The concept is self-contradictory.

I suggest it be replaced by something that doesn't figure into its own calculation, for example "Punching Older" or "Punching Larger".
 
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