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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Swantree said:
If you are only concerned that this vote would affect the influence of Verenan cults on the library primarily through librarians.

I think this means that this action will only get us access to books?
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Yeah, I think the discussion over whether or not we want Verenans involved in the running of the library are missing the fact that this isn't what this vote is about. This vote is about sharing books. You can have Verenan librarians with or without any agreements regarding books.

What I am personally worried about is that the library as it currently stands won't be sufficently impressive to some in the cult. We can probably get some books, from some parts of the cult, but if we hold off until we have agreements with other cults and other libraries we will probably get a better deal.
 
Jreengus said:
I think the issue is less that they engage in a concerted takeover and more that if we hire a Verenan who disagrees with the whole "Share knowledge freely to anyone" part of the library's goal and they get into a position of power they are naturally going to hire Verenans who think similarly and we end up with a chunk of our librarians disagreeing with one of the libraries goals. I don't think it's impossible myself but I also don't think it's likely and it really isn't a worry for this turn as we aren't recruiting any librarians with this action.
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And then we fire them all? Like I'm not seeing the problem. This library is not a democracy, Mathilde is the iron handed tyrant of the bookshelves and if the Verenans we might hire get to conspiratory then we will throw them out, with dwarf assisted steel boots if necessary.
 
Codex said:
"Hans von Kleptor
The most prominent member of the cult is a powerful priest named Hans von Kleptor. Von Kleptor began his career as a wandering priest of Ranald. At first, he was little more than a petty criminal, until he had a vision of Ranald, who told him to spread the word about his nobler deeds. He made his way to Marienburg, and worked to expand the size and grandeur of the city's main temple to Ranald, the Gilt House. Handsome, charismatic, and charming to the extreme, many of Ranald's cultists believe he is the mortal son of Ranald himself. He pledges to increase the status of the cult within the Empire, pulling it out of the shadows into the light. However, his proclamations of freedom from tyranny and release from the power of nobles have drawn the wrath of those in power." Tome of Salvation 2nd Edition WFRP Page 50

The name's canon. Makes it even funnier.
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Ah, should have expected that. My apologies then.
 
Tobtorp said:
And then we fire them all? Like I'm not seeing the problem. This library is not a democracy, Mathilde is the iron handed tyrant of the bookshelves and if the Verenans we might hire get to conspiratory then we will throw them out, with dwarf assisted steel boots if necessary.
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Sure we fire them, after spending time and energy investigating to find all of them and in doing so we sour our relations with the libraries that agree with them (which is likely to be the ones we most want the books from) and have to replace a ton of librarians with others that don't have the same level of expertise. None of this is a major threat that will destroy our library, it's just an annoyance that could (if it happens which it might not) suck up time and energy and get us cut off from some libraries.
 
Chopak said:
Ah, should have expected that. My apologies then.
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Nah, no need for apologies. I found it funny.

You have no idea how hilariously uncreative GW can sometimes be. The Speaker of the House for the Staadsraad, which is a sort of advisory and administrative body that's supposed to oversee and doublecheck the decisions of Marienburg's main council the Directorate, has the name Nieut Gyngrijk.
 
Jreengus said:
Sure we fire them, after spending time and energy investigating to find all of them and in doing so we sour our relations with the libraries that agree with them (which is likely to be the ones we most want the books from) and have to replace a ton of librarians with others that don't have the same level of expertise. None of this is a major threat that will destroy our library, it's just an annoyance that could (if it happens which it might not) suck up time and energy and get us cut off from some libraries.
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Or we let it be known that if the Verenans do stupid shit we throw them out all together and let them police themselves while also installing some of the hochlanders agents. We have resources for this shit, and we are one of the best spies around. We probably could sniff out a conspiracy in our own library just by taking a walk and looking at all the ulgu that will have build up...

And as for other libraries? Our library will only grow and get better. We already have some extremely rare texts from both the elfs and the Dwarfs (and isn't that a shocker) which you can not find anywhere else. If they want to cut themselves off of that then I say let them and see how their goddess reacts to such stupidity...
 
Tobtorp said:
Or we let it be known that if the Verenans do stupid shit we throw them out all together and let them police themselves while also installing some of the hochlanders agents. We have resources for this shit, and we are one of the best spies around. We probably could sniff out a conspiracy in our own library just by taking a walk and looking at all the ulgu that will have build up...

And as for other libraries? Our library will only grow and get better. We already have some extremely rare texts from both the elfs and the Dwarfs (and isn't that a shocker) which you can not find anywhere else. If they want to cut themselves off of that then I say let them and see how their goddess reacts to such stupidity...
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What conspiracy? I haven't mentioned a conspiracy, literally just people naturally acting in line with their personal beliefs.

Sure we have access to rare texts but one of our primary goals is a direct attack on the foundation of the cult of Verena's powerbase. If Verena doesn't care about the Marienburg Verenans cutting ties with the empire out of spite why would she care about Verenans cutting ties with KAU out of self preservation? It's not stupid to worry about becoming reliant on a dwarven king to carry out your cults main goal for you.
 
Man, this entire line of argumentation is ridiculous.

The Verenens aren't centralised, we're not recruiting librarians right now but arranging an agreement for book swaps, Belegar and Mathilde have total control over the library and should we ever get to the point where Mathilde is looking to hire Verenens she can literally vet them to ensure she finds candidates that would be a good fit for what we want to achieve with the library.

There is no problem to solve here.
 
Jreengus said:
What conspiracy? I haven't mentioned a conspiracy, literally just people naturally acting in line with their personal beliefs.

Sure we have access to rare texts but one of our primary goals is a direct attack on the foundation of the cult of Verena's powerbase. If Verena doesn't care about the Marienburg Verenans cutting ties with the empire out of spite why would she care about Verenans cutting ties with KAU out of self preservation? It's not stupid to worry about becoming reliant on a dwarven king to carry out your cults main goal for you.
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Your conspiracy of taking over the kau? The one you have been talking about for the last, roughly 8 pages? The one you point to when asked why we should be afraid of the Cult of Verena? That conspiracy? And it is definitely a conspiracy. You making it out like the Verenans are the best goddamn spy agency since James bond died of liver failure... And frankly? It's getting ridiculous...
 
Tobtorp said:
Your conspiracy of taking over the kau? The one you have been talking about for the last, roughly 8 pages? The one you point to when asked why we should be afraid of the Cult of Verena? That conspiracy? And it is definitely a conspiracy. You making it out like the Verenans are the best goddamn spy agency since James bond died of liver failure... And frankly? It's getting ridiculous...
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I think you've gotten me confused with someone else at some point, my first post on this subject was half an hour ago and I said in it I don't think that this is a serious threat just a possibility.
 
As was mentioned, worries about staffing and similar things aren't relevant this vote. The fact remains though, that it seems to me that if we go to the Verenans with a fully built library, established contacts already made with other places to get much of what we want anyway, then we'll get a more favorable deal in regards to what we want from them then we'll get if we go to them now. So since there doesn't seem to an urgent need for access to Verenan specific library contents, I don't see the need to go ahead with it this turn.
 
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Jreengus said:
I think you've gotten me confused with someone else at some point, my first post on this subject was half an hour ago and I said in it I don't think that this is a serious threat just a possibility.
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I apologize with getting so heated about it. You are right that your not the worst culprit but you did step into the exact same footsteps of arguing that the verenians could realistically take over any part of the kau.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
As was mentioned, worries about staffing and similar things aren't relevant this vote. The fact remains though, that it seems to me that if we go to the Verenans with a fully built library, established contacts already made with other places to get much of what we want anyway, then we'll get a more favorable deal in regards to what we want from them then we'll get if we go to them now. So since there doesn't seem to an urgent need for access to Verenan specific library contents, I don't see the need to go ahead with it this turn.
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We do not have an urgent need for anything library related so that seems an odd choice of words. Realistically we do not need the library at all, we just want it.

As to the core of the argument, I have made a rather large post about the giant pile of books, including some that flatly cannot be found in human hands. So when considering that collection does it really matter if the selves are built? I maintain that it does not, that it will not matter to the Verenans and that in delay we will only lose a turn of exchange... and get halfling genealogies. I sure those are perfectly fine genealogies, but there seems little reason to hurry on those.
 
DragonParadox said:
We do not have an urgent need for anything library related so that seems an odd choice of words. Realistically we do not need the library at all, we just want it.
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Naturally you need to compare like to like. Realistically, we're not dropping the half action invested in being Head Librarian so the action is getting used for something library related. So if there's no pressing need otherwise, might as well go for a library action we're well leveraged for,

DragonParadox said:
As to the core of the argument, I have made a rather large post about the giant pile of books, including some that flatly cannot be found in human hands. So when considering that collection does it really matter if the selves are built? I maintain that it does not, that it will not matter to the Verenans and that in delay we will only lose a turn of exchange... and get halfling genealogies. I sure those are perfectly fine genealogies, but there seems little reason to hurry on those.
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The pile is large for an individual, but at the end of the day Mathilde is wealthy, but not part of the ultra-rich that do things like show off by making massive donations to people like the Verenans. The fact that she has access to books that can't be bought by gold does certainly add an incentive, and I do expect we'd get an okay deal. I just think we'd get a better deal if we waited.
 
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From the state of the vote it looks like the deadlock between Verena and Quinsberry is going to last for a while. Would anyone like a distraction? Say, a Haléthan distraction? Because I just realized that while I asked Boney about the symbols of Gods in general, I forgot the ask the really important questions. So, @Boney, based on the books we purchased:
-Do either Halétha or Haleth use V's or chevrons in their symbolism? Does Hekarti?

In addition, when Mathilde was making her staff she engraved runes of Halétha, among others.
-Did any of those runes include V's or chevrons?
-Are any of those runes especially similar to runes of Ranald (or Shallya, if Mathilde happens to know some from her runecraft classes)?
 
Thomasfoolery said:
Naturally you need to compare like to like. Realistically, we're not dropping the half action invested in being Head Librarian so the action is getting used for something library related. So if there's no pressing need otherwise, might as well go for a library action we're well leveraged for,



The pile is large for an individual, but at the end of the day Mathilde is wealthy, but not part of the ultra-rich that do things like show off by making massive donations to people like the Verenans. The fact that she has access to books that can't be bought by gold does certainly add an incentive, and I do expect we'd get an okay deal. I just think we'd get a better deal if we waited.
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How rich Mathilde is does not enter into things, she is the head of the library but not its patron. That would be King Belegar Ironhammer, who like all the kings of major dwarf holds has more gold than the Cult of Verena can imagine. The Karaz Ankor has enough precious metals in their vaults to break the economy of the Empire without half trying.
 
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Thomasfoolery said:
The pile is large for an individual, but at the end of the day Mathilde is wealthy, but not part of the ultra-rich that do things like show off by making massive donations to people like the Verenans. The fact that she has access to books that can't be bought by gold does certainly add an incentive, and I do expect we'd get an okay deal. I just think we'd get a better deal if we waited.
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In terms of book related stuff Mathilde's budget is K8P's treasury.

The K8P library is the result of a transcendent boon - that makes it very high priority for the hold as a whole.
 
DragonParadox said:
How rich Mathilde is does not enter into things, she is the head of the library but not its patron. That would be King Belegar Ironhammer, who like all the kings of major dwarf holds has most gold than the Cult of Verena can imagine. The Karaz Ankor has enough precious metals in their vaults to break the economy of the Empire without half trying.
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That's a completely argument, the post I replied to was you arguing in regards to the allure of the existing pile. Yes, the patronage of a King is a large incentive. one that I think would play a lot better after it's had a bit more time to show it's track record.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
That's a completely argument, the post I replied to was you arguing in regards to the allure of the existing pile. Yes, the patronage of a King is a large incentive. one that I think would play a lot better after it's had a bit more time to show it's track record.
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I mean it is a continuation of the argument you made where you specifically references her wealth. It is not the patronage of a king, it is the patronage of a dwarf king which is an unprecedented thing for the Cult of Verena to be offered in any regard. Dwarfs as a general rule do not share books. Dwarf Friends are rare and the ones who actually ask to be paid in books rarer.

So why would we need to show a track record? I mean generally the reason is to make sure it is really as good as it seems, as reliable... what part of our library might seem unreliable, what might these scholars think would change for the worse that they must bide their time?
 
DragonParadox said:
I mean it is a continuation of the argument you made where you specifically references her wealth. It is not the patronage of a king, it is the patronage of a dwarf king which is an unprecedented thing for the Cult of Verena to be offered in any regard. Dwarfs as a general rule do not share books. Dwarf Friends are rare and the ones who actually ask to be paid in books rarer.
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I made an argument to her wealth because that's what for the most part the pile was accrued by. Your argument was in regards to the pile of books it was feasible for someone of like Mathilde (A wealthy but not beyond the dreams of avarice) person to buy for the bulk of them. My point was that such a pile was not nearly as compelling as you claimed it to be in the big picture. It was not in regards to a hypothetical 100,000+ gold pile of books the library might eventually have in the future due to patronage. Which is again a completely different argument.

DragonParadox said:
So why would we need to show a track record? I mean generally the reason is to make sure it is really as good as it seems, as reliable... what part of our library might seem unreliable, what might these scholars think would change for the worse that they must bide their time?
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Belegar could die tomorrow, would the next king show as much support? (Well, probably, but that requires a decent level of dwarf insight not all humans are going to have). A proven track record of things already done is more compelling than the future likelihood those things will be done.
 
mathymancer said:
From the state of the vote it looks like the deadlock between Verena and Quinsberry is going to last for a while. Would anyone like a distraction? Say, a Haléthan distraction? Because I just realized that while I asked Boney about the symbols of Gods in general, I forgot the ask the really important questions. So, @Boney, based on the books we purchased:
-Do either Halétha or Haleth use V's or chevrons in their symbolism? Does Hekarti?

In addition, when Mathilde was making her staff she engraved runes of Halétha, among others.
-Did any of those runes include V's or chevrons?
-Are any of those runes especially similar to runes of Ranald (or Shallya, if Mathilde happens to know some from her runecraft classes)?
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Halétha sometimes uses a tree which can sort of look like a X, Haleth sometimes uses a pair of horns which can look like a v, Shallya uses a dove in flight which can look like a v. As for Hekarti, here's the Asur depiction of Her rune:



Problem is, you can find a V or a chevron in any symbol with multiple non-parallel lines if you put your mind to it.
 
I'm honestly confused why the library issue is an issue at all. How is the decision between reaching what's basically a glorified trade agreement with the Cult of Actual Books And Libraries And Also Law And Justice Vs the Cult of Making Sure Your Wife Isn't Also Your Sister even a debate?

[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans

[X] Plan Verenan Compromise + Bright Pilot
 
Thomasfoolery said:
Belegar could die tomorrow, would the next king show as much support? (Well, probably, but that requires a decent level of dwarf insight not all humans are going to have). A proven track record of things already done is more compelling than the future likelihood those things will be done.
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Yes, because that is how dwarfs work, they would sooner shave their heads than do anything else. That is not some esoteric dwarf lore, that is dwarfs 101. I would imagine the servants of the Goddess of Knowledge would have at least that much understanding of the subject. If they lack that... well it is probably best not to bring them into contact with dwarfs at all.
 
Boney said:
Problem is, you can find a V or a chevron in any symbol with multiple non-parallel lines if you put your mind to it.
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Alas. Hekarti's Asur rune, at least, doesn't seem to include a V or a chevron unless you really squint, so that's something.
Any answer on the question regarding the similarity of runes engraved on Mathilde's staff, or is this another question where the answer is 'many symbols can be said to kind of resemble other symbols if you put your mind to it'?
 
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