Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

King crimson said:

@drake_azathoth I hate to be that guy but can you please switch your vote to plan format if you wish for it to be counted?

Additionally I noticed that there are no write-ins in your plan. I strongly recommend that the thread consider write-ins for at least some of the subvotes. The costume vote is one where I especially would encourage people to make use of the write-in system as that system is intended to work around it very heavily since write-in's give more flexibility and optimal results as opposed to me listing out hundreds of options and repeating things for each character or you picking one of the defaults I made as an example of a general design you could emulate.

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Should be revised to plan vote now.

I'd be interested to get people's feedback on the costume vote, but I do think Leonard is probably a good start to focus on for the costumes and that he could probably use something a lot more heavy-duty than Captain Cold has in canon, but not an actual exosuit like our heavier hitters have.

drake_azathoth said:

I'd be interested to get people's feedback on the costume vote, but I do think Leonard is probably a good start to focus on for the costumes and that he could probably use something a lot more heavy-duty than Captain Cold has in canon, but not an actual exosuit like our heavier hitters have.

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I'd rather focus on Leonard & the Rogue's abilities as bank robbers/thieves with gimmicks focused on the terrain control so as to get away with the prize.

LexCorp's Corporate Sponsored Heroes would be an All Female Superteam centered around Ultraviolet.

drake_azathoth said:

Should be revised to plan vote now.

I'd be interested to get people's feedback on the costume vote, but I do think Leonard is probably a good start to focus on for the costumes and that he could probably use something a lot more heavy-duty than Captain Cold has in canon, but not an actual exosuit like our heavier hitters have.

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My issue with the Leonard costume is that it uses all of our points to massively increase the Martial of a character who is best used leading a team of people that can be used in just about any field

I would very much argue that we'd be better off getting costumes for Mari, Siobhan and Caitlin, if we can think of a good one

Though that does remind me @King crimson is there a reason Carol isn't on the list?

jonasquinn said:

Keep in mind that the main reason we took this option was to create something for Caitlin.

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Ah, I wondered about that. Honestly in that case Caitlin's costume is a nice option, I'll revise things to include it instead of something for Leonard.

I'm not tremendously concerned about pushing for taxes hard since even though DOMA may want that, it's not crucial to us, but I'll put in a small push. I would go for the flat rate, since that serves best as an 'entry tax' for anyone wanting to be a superhero and deters those without backing.

jonasquinn said:

That... just seems like a more complicated DNA test

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If I'm remembering my facts correctly (it's been a few years since I had to do genetics work) most DNA tests destroy the DNA sample as things are being sequenced. Calling it "a more complicated DNA test" isn't wrong per se but it also misses a ton of nuance and ignores every advantage this would have over traditional DNA tests.

Modern DNA tests wouldn't work on something with different nucleotides than the typical four while this method would immediately identify that something is different. Modern DNA testing often struggles with accuracy, especially for large swathes of DNA and instead focuses on recognizable and known SNRPs in order to make an assessment. This method more accurately reads everything at once and while it doesn't tell you composition like modern DNA testing would, it's better for comparative modeling. Modern DNA testing doesn't account for acetylation or methylation (which heavily expresses how the DNA sequence is expressed and read by your body) while this could account for that.

Does this clarify why this is an option being offered and how it's different from a typical DNA test?

jonasquinn said:

Though that does remind me @King crimson is there a reason Carol isn't on the list?

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Diminishing returns.

Any costume you could make for Carol she could probably make for herself using her ring better. The construct costume is going to be stronger and more durable than anything you could make and it would almost certainly replace whatever she's wearing before she constructs it so any costume you made at your current level would be a strict downgrade from what she's already got for free from the Star Sapphire ring.

King crimson said:

Does this clarify why this is an option being offered and how it's different from a typical DNA test?

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Fair enough, I am far from an expert on DNA so I'll take your word for it

King crimson said:

Diminishing returns.

Any costume you could make for Carol she could probably make for herself using her ring better. The construct costume is going to be stronger and more durable than anything you could make and it would almost certainly replace whatever she's wearing before she constructs it so any costume you made at your current level would be a strict downgrade from what she's already got for free from the Star Sapphire ring.

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Makes sense

While I have you, can you think of anything we could equip Caitlin with other than kryptonite to heat her up? Just to try and get a grasp on the possibilities

EDIT: Also can you clarify how literal the bomb thing is? Because that really impacts how willing I am to go for it

drake_azathoth said:

I would go for the flat rate, since that serves best as an 'entry tax' for anyone wanting to be a superhero and deters those without backing.

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Agreed, it also makes working with big names like LexCorp for larger paychecks more alluring

jonasquinn said:

While I have you, can you think of anything we could equip Caitlin with other than kryptonite to heat her up? Just to try and get a grasp on the possibilities

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You could try and build a battery pack using conventional chemical means but it's almost certainly going to react badly to her powers as her ability to drain heat will mess with the battery for sure and will almost certainly cause problems if not placed far enough away from her which would require a bulky design that's less maneuverable and would also cause potential armoring problems (you've got to protect the battery as well). I'm not an expert engineer but I believe you're best off strapping a kryptonite battery to her because other things will be either too heavy, unable to keep up with her powers effectively or unable to meet the strain. Like dousing Caitlin in kerosene and setting her on fire would work for a few seconds before it's all promptly undone.

Part of the reason why Caitlin's costumes are expensive is because Caitlin's powers make it hell to design for her. I think the best non-kryptonite option for a costume and not an exosuit would be magic but you don't exactly have anything that can be used safely to magically heat someone.

Someone more clever than me and better versed in engineering could come up with something but considering Caitlin's going to basically need a suit that would burn to death anyone else who wore it, there's not a lot of good safe options I could think of that would work long term and be better for it.

With Caitlin you might need to think what you value the most in her costume (covering her up, keeping her properly heated, maximizing combat potential, making the suit marketable, making the suit less lethal to everyone else etc.) because designing for one thing often comes at the cost of another and there's no easy way to get everything.

King crimson said:

You could try and build a battery pack using conventional chemical means but it's almost certainly going to react badly to her powers as her ability to drain heat will mess with the battery for sure and will almost certainly cause problems if not placed far enough away from her which would require a bulky design that's less maneuverable and would also cause potential armoring problems (you've got to protect the battery as well). I'm not an expert engineer but I believe you're best off strapping a kryptonite battery to her because other things will be either too heavy, unable to keep up with her powers effectively or unable to meet the strain. Like dousing Caitlin in kerosene and setting her on fire would work for a few seconds before it's all promptly undone.

Part of the reason why Caitlin's costumes are expensive is because Caitlin's powers make it hell to design for her. I think the best non-kryptonite option for a costume and not an exosuit would be magic but you don't exactly have anything that can be used safely to magically heat someone.

Someone more clever than me and better versed in engineering could come up with something but considering Caitlin's going to basically need a suit that would burn to death anyone else who wore it, there's not a lot of good safe options I could think of that would work long term and be better for it.

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Okay, how literal is the bomb thing?

Like, is it a "In the worst case scenario and they somehow break they'll explode" or "There is a very real chance that in any given fight that they'll blow up"?

jonasquinn said:

Okay, how literal is the bomb thing?

Like, is it a "In the worst case scenario and they somehow break they'll explode" or "There is a very real chance that in any given fight they'll blow up"?

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It's a "if they were somehow removed from the area of effect of Caitlin's powers and left to function as they do in the costume unaltered they'd explode" type of situation. So long as Caitlin is draining heat from them they cannot explode as they cannot get hot enough and if they are removed from the costume they'd have to removed in such a way that doesn't damage the kryptonite, the mechanism granting them energy or the overall structure holding everything in place. Considering that the parts with the kryptonite elements would likely be the most heavily armored parts and the fact that Caitlin can easily hit anything that hits them, they're unlikely to explode in any realistic combat scenario.

Edit: In any scenario in which there's a fight and the opponent could remove the kryptonite elements in such a way that they would still function as bombs, said individual could strip someone out of an exosuit without damaging the exosuit.

Edit 2: I suppose if Caitlin is killed while wearing the suit and you don't add in a failsafe for the kryptonite reaching a certain temperture and not detecting heat drain they could explode but such a scenario requires Caitlin's death which is pretty worst case scenario and is naturally selected against so long as there are any other possible alternatives.

King crimson said:

It's a "if they were somehow removed from the area of effect of Caitlin's powers and left to function as they do in the costume unaltered they'd explode" type of situation. So long as Caitlin is draining heat from them they cannot explode as they cannot get hot enough and if they are removed from the costume they'd have to removed in such a way that doesn't damage the kryptonite, the mechanism granting them energy or the overall structure holding everything in place. Considering that the parts with the kryptonite elements would likely be the most heavily armored parts and the fact that Caitlin can easily hit anything that hits them, they're unlikely to explode in any realistic combat scenario.

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Okay that makes me far more comfortable going for them

Also, and sorry if I'm being a pain, you wouldn't happen to still have the description of the punk costume for Siobhan laying around? Even if it's the same price as the dress I just prefer the aesthetic for her and don't trust my own descriptive ability

If you wanted to you could make it cost slightly more and say the leather has some armour plates inside it or something

jonasquinn said:

Okay that makes me far more comfortable going for them

Also, and sorry if I'm being a pain, you wouldn't happen to still have the description of the punk costume for Siobhan laying around? Even if it's the same price as the dress I just prefer the aesthetic for her and don't trust my own descriptive ability

If you wanted to you could make it cost slightly more and say the leather has some armour plates inside it or something

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These two versions work for what you wanted? I can try and compose something else or if you want to send me an image of the look you're going for I can try and build a description based around that if you want something else.

-[ ] [Design] Skulls, Spikes and Leather (1 point)
This costume is one which appeals more to Siobhan's usual aesthetic. The black leather jacket with silver spikes, motorcycle pants, lace up combat boots and studded black fingerless gloves give this a unique and striking silhouette. The more punk aesthetic naturally pairs well with Siobhan's skull like face as the Silver Banshee and gives her a distinctive style and appeal. It's unlikely to be everyone's favorite design but it's one Siobhan likes and it could find its own invested audience. It doesn't really hold any utility beyond being unique when juxtaposed with every other superhero costume you know of but with Siobhan's powers having such effective defensive and offensive uses you can more than afford to be focused on style over substance.

-[ ] [Design] Skulls, Spikes, Light Armor and Leather (5 points)
This costume is one which appeals more to Siobhan's usual aesthetic. The black leather jacket with silver spikes, motorcycle pants, lace up combat boots and studded black fingerless gloves give this a unique and striking silhouette. The more punk aesthetic naturally pairs well with Siobhan's skull like face as the Silver Banshee and gives her a distinctive style and appeal. It's unlikely to be everyone's favorite design but it's one Siobhan likes and it could find its own invested audience. The additional armored plates subtly woven into the jacket and pants do give this look a bit of defense even if Siobhan's powers would be doing the majority of the heavy lifting in a serious fight.

Looks good. ...I added the one with light armor to my plan.

King crimson said:

These two versions work for what you wanted? I can try and compose something else or if you want to send me an image of the look you're going for I can try and build a description based around that if you want something else.

-[ ] [Design] Skulls, Spikes and Leather (1 point)
This costume is one which appeals more to Siobhan's usual aesthetic. The black leather jacket with silver spikes, motorcycle pants, lace up combat boots and studded black fingerless gloves give this a unique and striking silhouette. The more punk aesthetic naturally pairs well with Siobhan's skull like face as the Silver Banshee and gives her a distinctive style and appeal. It's unlikely to be everyone's favorite design but it's one Siobhan likes and it could find its own invested audience. It doesn't really hold any utility beyond being unique when juxtaposed with every other superhero costume you know of but with Siobhan's powers having such effective defensive and offensive uses you can more than afford to be focused on style over substance.

-[ ] [Design] Skulls, Spikes, Light Armor and Leather (5 points)
This costume is one which appeals more to Siobhan's usual aesthetic. The black leather jacket with silver spikes, motorcycle pants, lace up combat boots and studded black fingerless gloves give this a unique and striking silhouette. The more punk aesthetic naturally pairs well with Siobhan's skull like face as the Silver Banshee and gives her a distinctive style and appeal. It's unlikely to be everyone's favorite design but it's one Siobhan likes and it could find its own invested audience. The additional armored plates subtly woven into the jacket and pants do give this look a bit of defense even if Siobhan's powers would be doing the majority of the heavy lifting in a serious fight.

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Those are perfect thank you

@drake_azathoth could I convince you to make a couple of changes to your plan? Specifically adding the blizzard drone option for Richter, since we already have them and will just have to give her some, and doing the alliance option with Talia, since that will probably cover most of the important stuff anyway?

If you do that I am 100% on board with it

I've just realized something dumb.

If we want further quality-of-life improvements on the Bone Growth Formula... we really need to put someone other than Doctor Moon on it.

jonasquinn said:

@drake_azathoth could I convince you to make a couple of changes to your plan? Specifically adding the blizzard drone option for Richter, since we already have them and will just have to give her some, and doing the alliance option with Talia, since that will probably cover most of the important stuff anyway?

If you do that I am 100% on board with it

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Good point on Richter. Ra's al Ghul is risky after we soured relations earlier, but Talia wouldn't be so close if we didn't have things they wanted and I think there's clearly common goals to work with. Done.

Sirrocco said:

If we want further quality-of-life improvements on the Bone Growth Formula... we really need to put someone other than Doctor Moon on it.

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Every hero has a unique effect on it, Karl lowers the DC with his experience and research, Dr. Moon makes results more "interesting" in his twisted way. Karl and either Lex or Pamela on the formula may give some more marketable results, and less of the weirder options to pick from.

drake_azathoth said:

Good point on Richter. Ra's al Ghul is risky after we soured relations earlier, but Talia wouldn't be so close if we didn't have things they wanted and I think there's clearly common goals to work with. Done.

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Thank you very much and as promised:

[X] [Plan] Red as Blood and Cold as Ice

Sirrocco said:

I've just realized something dumb.

If we want further quality-of-life improvements on the Bone Growth Formula... we really need to put someone other than Doctor Moon on it.

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That's a good point but who else would we put on it with Karl? Caitlin?

Siobhan would be good if she got her learning up, both for mechanical reasons and because you could argue her regeneration would help Karl's research

Sirrocco said:

I've just realized something dumb.

If we want further quality-of-life improvements on the Bone Growth Formula... we really need to put someone other than Doctor Moon on it.

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Put Siobhan and Caitlin on it since both of them get along with Karl.

I'll go ahead and post my plan, mostly what I was choosing earlier (lots of costumes for our heroes, wide variety of upgrades for computers). I picked better monitoring and collection for the vehicle lab since its a one time upgrade that can drop DCs for all our vehicles and putting the rest into pharmaceutical lab DC drop. Also chose to offer cybernetic upgrades to the SCU, let them test it out for us so we know what works and what we can improve. The bill picks are from @drake_azathoth's plan. His plan is fine, but I wanted to offer this alternative.

[X] [Plan] More costumes, more upgrades, more SCU enhancements
-[] [Inch] Get no improvements to LexCorp tower's defenses but gain a large DC drop of 20 next turn
-[] [SCU] Offer to cybernetically enhance interested officers of the SCU (9 points)
-[] [SCU] Enable LexCorp to easily access any metahuman awaiting transfer to a prison (5 points)
-[] [SCU] Allow LexCorp to plant spyware in the SCU headquarters (30 points)
-[] [SCU] Replace all vehicles used by the SCU with Kryptonite powered ones where possible (7 points)
-[] [SCU] Enable LexCorp to freely remove any evidence the SCU has from lock-up under the pretext of analysis (2 points)
-[] [Bill] Make it so that only the DOMA can approve of a sponsor in order to be able to legally sponsor a superhero (20 points)
-[] [Bill] Push against giving the president any special powers regarding superhuman sponsorship (20 points)
-[] [Bill] Allow superpowered criminals amnesty for non-heinous crimes if they can find a sponsor willing to draft them as soldiers or superheroes, and pay an indemnity to clear their name to be paid to the victims families (20 points)
-[] [Bill] Make it so that any costumed vigilante who operates without a sponsor is effectively treated as potential murderers and will be arrested on sight (20 points)
-[] [Bill] Push for the Bill to be completed as fast as possible (10 points)
-[] [Bill] Begin taxing superheroes and their merchandizing at a flat rate (6 points)
-[] [Demon] Meet with Talia and Ra's al Ghul to discuss alien invasions, Atlantis and long term alliances
-[] [Richter] Agree to create new combat capable aircraft or drones for General Richter in exchange for a lot of money and her tacit support in getting LexCorp more backing with the US military
-[] [Richter] Provide General Richter with blizzard blanket drones in exchange for General Richter's meteorological data
-[] [Costume] Mari McCabe
-- [] [Design] Armored Tiger (24 points)
-[] [Costume] Leonard Snart
-- [] [Design] Arctic Assault (27 points)
-[] [Costume] Samuel Scudder
-- [] [Design] Full-Mirror Suit (14 points)
-[] [Costume] Caitlin Snow
-- [] [Design] Open-Air Attire (2 points)
-[] [Costume] Siobhan McDougal
--[] [Design] Skulls, Spikes, Light Armor and Leather (5 points)
-[] [Lab] Upgrade Vehicles (0 points)
--[] [Equipment] Better data monitoring and collection (9 points)
-[] [Points] Pharmaceutical lab (Reduce cost 26 points)
-[] [Comp] Improved facial recognition and generation technology (6 points, can be taken repeatedly)
-[] [Comp] Better processing (15 points, can be taken repeatedly)
-[] [Comp] Improved data storage (8 points, can be taken repeatedly)
-[] [Comp] Cloud computing (19 points)
-[] [Comp] DNA spectrography program (17 points)
-[] [Comp] Improved arithmetic logic units (5 points, can be taken repeatedly)
-[] [Comp] Improved anti-virus tech (15 points, can be taken repeatedly)
-[] [Comp] Improved spyware bugs (12 points, can be taken repeatedly)
-[] [Bone] Improved rate of regeneration (2 points, can be taken repeatedly)
-[] [Bone] On-command growth (26 points)
-[] [Bone] Reduced throat complications (1 point)
-[] [Freeze] Ease of constructions (3 points, can be taken repeatedly) X2
-[] [Freeze] Freeze grenade launcher (20 points)
-[] [Whale] Agree to not interfere in any capacity with Tobias Whale's criminal operations provided he does not become too publicly visible and he and his associates do not interfere with LexCorp business
-[] [Brain] Agree to help the Brain gain temporary amnesty and a reduction of sentence for him and the Brotherhood of Evil in exchange for his aid in dealing with an alien invasion.

-[] [Bill] Begin taxing superheroes and their merchandizing at a flat rate (6 points)

I have to ask why flat rate taxes instead of percentage of sales?

-[] [Brain] Agree to help the Brain gain temporary amnesty and a reduction of sentence for him and the Brotherhood of Evil in exchange for his aid in dealing with an alien invasion.

Also why speak for Brain? This is a lunatic who labels his own organisation as "Brotherhood of Evil" both inaccuate due to having a woman on the team and bad for PR with the Evil part.

Is no one interested in getting Cass kitted out? I know it's not the highest priority mechanically but I feel like making sure his daughter has either one of the better options ASAP is very Lex.

Negation said:

Also why speak for Brain? This is a lunatic who labels his own organisation as "Brotherhood of Evil" both inaccuate due to having a woman on the team and bad for PR with the Evil part.

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Its mainly to send a message that if a villain is willing to aid in defending the planet, they can do so without fear of immediate incarceration, and maybe a lighter sentence for petty criminals that stepped up to help save the world. This discourages them from instead taking advantage of the chaos and making it worst, like what happens all the time in Gotham. Also helps push the idea of rehabilitation for criminals that want to escape that kind of life and need that one chance to show they're willing to change.

We can also add that any villain that does try to commit crimes during this kind of crisis will be shown no mercy and be treated as one of the invaders.

Cursix said:

Is no one interested in getting Cass kitted out? I know it's not the highest priority mechanically but I feel like making sure his daughter has either one of the better options ASAP is very Lex.

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She's a minor. We let Batman groom child soldiers. Cassandra's education is far more important than running around in a onesie and comitting crimes of assault and vigilantism.

Negation said:

She's a minor.

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This is the reason, we really don't want to advertise that Cassandra is a front line fighter for a while, wouldn't mind giving her a suit when she starts taking those kinds of martial actions more regularly.

[X] [Plan] Red as Blood and Cold as Ice