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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Grey order just seems like the best option to me, its where Mathilde can check up on her every once in a while, maybe we could even give her some lessons if we happen to have free time.

As opposed to all the others where us going just to visit some low level apprentice would be fairly awkward.
 
[X] Wizard
- [X] Let Eike decide
- [X] The Celestial College
- [X] The Golden Order
- [X] The Order of Life
- [X] The Grey Order
[X] Clergy
 
Seems like a pretty clear result. I mean, I know we've have votes with 200+ outcomes, but I doubt the general thread is going to change if someone doesn't come up with some solid arguments. Hmmm... :thonk:

Let's play Devil's Advocate. How does this go wrong?

What if Wilhelmina sees this as poaching her legacy and Mathilde trying to usurp the EIC entire, and decides to try to keep it alive and out of the hands of the Grey Order, thus making her our opponent? She could do a lot of damage if she decides the Vow of Poverty makes Eike unsuitable as heir. Hell, just forcing her to disinherit Eike would do a lot of damage to Eike's confidence going into the Colleges, as well as our relationship. Are we really going to risk it all on her being gracious and resonable in the face of yet more failure, just so we can have an apprentice?

Or, how will the rest of the Grey's Lord Magisters and the Patriarch see Mathilde trying to groom and take over the EIC, or her expending influence to grab and care for Eike? It's medival times so family and friends getting preferential treatment is expected to some degree, but seeing that kind of behaviour in a Lady Magister of the Grey is another thing entirely.

Extra concern: Taking Eike as an apprentice might imply targets on the backs of Wilhelmina and Anton. Because it shows Mat is a Grey Magister that is at least somewhat attached to her friends from Stirland, so targeting them with schemes might give some leverage over a Grey Magister Lady, which is no small boon at all. Are Wilhelmina and Anton ready to face the kind of enemies Mat's reputation will bring to their doorstep after this?

Another one: How will the ordinary people of Stirland react? And the Watch? We already know they don't much care for Wizards, and while Mat's reputation is helpful there, it likely will cause significant troubles for the EIC, not only with other merchants but with both employees and customers.

It's one thing to know that a Grey Wizard is a shareholder, quite another that another one runs the place!

I think that's enough for one post. Still, it looks like Mat will be recommending both letting her choose and the Greys.

I think this might be the first real time we lose a Divided Loyalties vote. Because taking Eike as an apprentice is not what's best for everyone here. Or at least, the motivation for doing it isn't fully clean.

To put it in the terms the Bursar did, if Eike was a bag of gold, this voting result would be voting to start baiting hooks to catch her. Just because a perfect fish is jumping out of the water and showing off in front of us, doesn't mean it's jumped on board. That's what "Letting Eike decide" or a neutral stance winning alone, and then Eike asking to join the Grey's would be.

As is, Mat's putting pressure on the choice. And what a Lady Magister wants, she usually gets.

PS: If I could, I'd vote against the magic dampening.


Adhoc vote count started by primemountain on Jun 6, 2021 at 2:17 AM, finished with 597 posts and 140 votes.
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primemountain said:
Hell, just forcing her to disinherit Eike would do a lot of damage to Eike's confidence going into the Colleges, as well as our relationship. Are we really going to risk it all on her being gracious and resonable in the face of yet more failure, just so we can have an apprentice?
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It's the amethysts that require you to forsake any inheritance. The vow of poverty only requires what riches you have to be "of practical use to further your cause" or something like that, and is apparently somewhat flexible as long as you stay within the spirit of the vow, which is that you don't use ulgu to intentionally enrich yourself.
primemountain said:
Extra concern: Taking Eike as an apprentice might imply targets on the backs of Wilhelmina and Anton. Because it shows Mat is a Grey Magister that is at least somewhat attached to her friends from Stirland, so targeting them with schemes might give some leverage over a Grey Magister Lady, which is no small boon at all. Are Wilhelmina and Anton ready to face the kind of enemies Mat's reputation will bring to their doorstep after this?
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Wilhelmina and Anton are a trade baron and a baron respectively, they already swim in the big fish pond. Furthermore trying to threaten the friends of a gray magister lord in order to have that magister lord do something for you sounds like a case of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"
primemountain said:
Or, how will the rest of the Grey's Lord Magisters and the Patriarch see Mathilde trying to groom and take over the EIC, or her expending influence to grab and care for Eike? It's medival times so family and friends getting preferential treatment is expected to some degree, but seeing that kind of behaviour in a Lady Magister of the Grey is another thing entirely.
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Mathilde already had the largest percentage share of the company, and she was already allied with another to make a majority share bloc. I don't think there will be problems as long as she continues to use the EIC for the betterment of the empire. The worst I could see is that some other trade company might cry to the colleges about her conduct, but Algard/Dragomas knows what we are up to so that's unlikely to earn them anything but scrutiny themselves.
primemountain said:
It's one thing to know that a Grey Wizard is a shareholder, quite another that another one runs the place!
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Agree that that might make things somewhat awkward. Though I don't know how bad the prejudice is among burghers who I presume are the people the company does the most trade with. What might be worse are traders going "Oh I don't want to do business with that company, who knows what skeletons those greys might find in my closet"
 
primemountain said:
Seems like a pretty clear result. I mean, I know we've have votes with 200+ outcomes, but I doubt the general thread is going to change if someone doesn't come up with some solid arguments. Hmmm... :thonk:

Let's play Devil's Advocate. How does this go wrong?

What if Wilhelmina sees this as poaching her legacy and Mathilde trying to usurp the EIC entire, and decides to try to keep it alive and out of the hands of the Grey Order, thus making her our opponent? She could do a lot of damage if she decides the Vow of Poverty makes Eike unsuitable as heir. Hell, just forcing her to disinherit Eike would do a lot of damage to Eike's confidence going into the Colleges, as well as our relationship. Are we really going to risk it all on her being gracious and resonable in the face of yet more failure, just so we can have an apprentice?

Or, how will the rest of the Grey's Lord Magisters and the Patriarch see Mathilde trying to groom and take over the EIC, or her expending influence to grab and care for Eike? It's medival times so family and friends getting preferential treatment is expected to some degree, but seeing that kind of behaviour in a Lady Magister of the Grey is another thing entirely.

Extra concern: Taking Eike as an apprentice might imply targets on the backs of Wilhelmina and Anton. Because it shows Mat is a Grey Magister that is at least somewhat attached to her friends from Stirland, so targeting them with schemes might give some leverage over a Grey Magister Lady, which is no small boon at all. Are Wilhelmina and Anton ready to face the kind of enemies Mat's reputation will bring to their doorstep after this?

Another one: How will the ordinary people of Stirland react? And the Watch? We already know they don't much care for Wizards, and while Mat's reputation is helpful there, it likely will cause significant troubles for the EIC, not only with other merchants but with both employees and customers.

It's one thing to know that a Grey Wizard is a shareholder, quite another that another one runs the place!

I think that's enough for one post. Still, it looks like Mat will be recommending both letting her choose and the Greys.

I think this might be the first real time we lose a Divided Loyalties vote. Because taking Eike as an apprentice is not what's best for everyone here. Or at least, the motivation for doing it isn't fully clean.

To put it in the terms the Bursar did, if Eike was a bag of gold, this voting result would be voting to start baiting hooks to catch her. Just because a perfect fish is jumping out of the water and showing off in front of us, doesn't mean it's jumped on board. That's what "Letting Eike decide" or a neutral stance winning alone, and then Eike asking to join the Grey's would be.

As is, Mat's putting pressure on the choice. And what a Lady Magister wants, she usually gets.

PS: If I could, I'd vote against the magic dampening.
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Well, that's a lot of fearmongering.
Eike will be a wizard, because dampening is not safe and church has too many unknowns.
Wilhelmina is not an idiot, so the concerns there are unfounded, she may not like it, but she knows what Eike being magically gifted means, and knows she can trust Mathilde.
And Grey College is not stupid either, they may keep an eye on things, but thats what Grey College does, taking an apprentice is somethingwizards are expected to do, and training the child of a friend is nothing but expected, and having a trusted Lady Magister train a Grey Journeyman expected to take control of a large financial organization is better than hoping some random magisters does a good job of it.
 
henkalv said:
Wilhelmina and Anton are a trade baron and a baron respectively, they already swim in the big fish pond. Furthermore trying to threaten the friends of a gray magister lord in order to have that magister lord do something for you sounds like a case of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"
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Yeah... messing with Mathilde like that was possible when she was still a little babby journeywoman forced into playing spymaster. A Lady Magister who murders armies, tears down castles, rips mountains out of the warp, and has not one but two dwarf holds in basically eternal debt to her is not the sort of person you play silly buggers with. Well, not unless you're particularly suicidal and just want to go out with a very loud bang.
 
@primemountain the concern with us expanding our influence is only relevant if the Grey Order do not trust us. If they did not trust us we would be dead or on the run. The power and influence we already have is far and away greater than anything the EIC could give us. As for Wilhelmina Eike is not going to become any less her granddaughter just because we take her as an apprentice. That is how dynasties work.

Finally I think we have given enough sign that we care about our friends to any enemies who are watching. I mean that is the base assumption and we have done nothing to dissuade anyone of it.
 
Ericwinter said:
Yeah... messing with Mathilde like that was possible when she was still a little babby journeywoman forced into playing spymaster. A Lady Magister who murders armies, tears down castles, rips mountains out of the warp, and has not one but two dwarf holds in basically eternal debt to her is not the sort of person you play silly buggers with. Well, not unless you're particularly suicidal and just want to go out with a very loud bang.
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Also close personal friend of the empress who is very much loved by the emperor, and has given birth to a male heir.
And is a known associate of Asalnir the Dragon Lord.

There's stupid ideas, there's slitting your own throat, and then there's this.
 
The way i think it will play out is mathilde giving a mention to the gold, jade and Clergy option, and then explain how the vow of poverty works in the context of business ownership, suggest a possible apprenticeship down the line, highlight the benefits of being even more closely associated with her when dealing with the dwarfs.
And then tell Eike that it's her choice in the end.
 
Valmond said:
Eike will be a wizard, because dampening is not safe
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Slight nitpick here, dampening is perfectly safe, hence why plenty of Empire nobles discreetly get it done for heirs who turn out to have magical potential. The risk with dampening is that dangling magical power just out of a person's reach for their entire life will often lead to them trying to do self-study as a 'magicker' and either blow themselves up or end up on the pyre.
 
Valmond said:
Also close personal friend of the empress who is very much loved by the emperor, and has given birth to a male heir.
And is a known associate of Asalnir the Dragon Lord.

There's stupid ideas, there's slitting your own throat, and then there's this.
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Also the Elector Countess of Stirland. Oh, and a god or two, if one happens to be aware of her close personal friendship with Ranald.
 
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