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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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primemountain said:
Sure. So you know how Duckling club is about several Wizards from different Colledges?

Well, running the Library will be sort of like that except Mat will be trying to create a staff of halflings, dwarves and humans, to run the Library, while also choosing stuff like how it's built, what the security is, negotiating contracts for new or ancient books, setting up terms and conditions for visiting scholars, universities, organizing books exchanges and so on.

Some of that will quite possibly involve books on otherwise forbidden subjects, or magic, or religion, and will bring Mat in contact with other Wizards, Witches and various priests, not to mention the other Colleges.

So in five years, a Head Librarian section might involve decinding what kind of protective measures we want on our Restricted Section of Books, navigating some kind of personal conflict between a dwarven and a human staff member, progress/negotiation reports on book acquisition, and so on. In this respect, a love of languages and Mat's xenophilia will serve her well, as will that she is a Laconic Buerocrat. Oh, and we might also get some Elves/Dwarves/Dragons rarer stuff, eventually coming around to see what all the fuss is about.

What I'm going to be really interested in is how Mat deals with her oaths as a Wizard, and sets policy on books that might have been fully banned under the Empire. Not the evil ones, but stuff that's politically inconvenient. That's going to create intrigue and diplomacy opportunities.

Basically, the Library will have a tangential impact on all the other work Mat is doing, much like the EIC has. And every once in a while, it will feature front and center, while doing it's own thing in the wider world all the while.
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All of that seems like a second job that we have to run in parallel to the Waystone Project and that will only rarely overlap.

We gave up on running the EIC, only holding on to those parts that acted as an intelligence network (expanding our personal power and influence as a Grey Magister) and allowed us to keep an eye on Stirland and Sylvania (of major sentimental interest to both Mathilde and many in the player base).

As for the Duckling Club, that wasn't really a job or a big responsibility. We helped out a few Journeymen whenever we had the time, met twice a year to share stories and gossip and used our seniority and prestige to occasionally rope them in on our own projects.

So maybe you see how to me the gist of your sell looks a lot like this: "Let's make this at least partially a librarian quest because librarians are cool. Also, as a minor secondary benefit we might have some synergy with our other job."

For me the "what to focus on in the future" vote already happened. So I'd really like to see a favorable argument that doesn't in any way hinge on doing the head librarian thing for it's own sake as a terminal value. Is there anything at all along the lines of "I know you don't care about being head librarian, but look at all the [insert benefits here] that it does for [insert one of our established interests or ambitions here], so don't worry about sinking time on something new and unrelated" that you could use to persuade me?


Because I don't want to fall into self pity, but not a single important vote since the Expedition ended has gone how I hoped. I didn't vote for Waystone Project, or Laurelorn, or the finalized Branch charter. Nothing but the Branch location and the actual existence of a Great Library in K8P. So I feel a bit irrationally down now.
 
DragonParadox said:
I do not want rare books in general, I want rare books on what we need that turn, and that will take a hand more specific than high level policy.
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I'm not sure the system is going to be that specific, or agile, in fact i would be very surprised if it was.
And i am very doubtful that the lost time in running the library (assuming people are actually willing to go all in on running the library) would be worth the benefit, compared to any other potential actions we could take to aid in our immediate projects.
 
[X] (LIBRARY) High-level policy
[X] (LIBRARY NAME) Bibliographical Order Of Karak-8-Peaks
[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch for Esoteric Research
 
[x] (LIBRARY) High-level policy

Eh, I don't want to spend AP on this. I would rather spend the time researching and adventuring. Lets just delegate.
 
Rafin said:
Because I don't want to fall into self pity, but not a single important vote since the Expedition ended has gone how I hoped. I didn't vote for Waystone Project, or Laurelorn, or the finalized Branch charter. Nothing but the Branch location and the actual existence of a Great Library in K8P. So I feel a bit irrationally down now.
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I can feel you there, though not as much since I stayed out of the charter vote. I did get a win there since all the top plans had a gyrocopter. If you want someone to talk to about it my PMs are available.
 
Rafin said:
All of that seems like a second job that we have to run in parallel to the Waystone Project and that will only rarely overlap.

We gave up on running the EIC, only holding on to those parts that acted as an intelligence network (expanding our personal power and influence as a Grey Magister) and allowed us to keep an eye on Stirland and Sylvania (of major sentimental interest to both Mathilde and many in the player base).

As for the Duckling Club, that wasn't really a job or a big responsibility. We helped out a few Journeymen whenever we had the time, met twice a year to share stories and gossip and used our seniority and prestige to occasionally rope them in on our own projects.

So maybe you see how to me the gist of your sell looks a lot like this: "Let's make this at least partially a librarian quest because librarians are cool. Also, as a minor secondary benefit we might have some synergy with our other job."

For me the "what to focus on in the future" vote already happened. So I'd really like to see a favorable argument that doesn't in any way hinge on doing the head librarian thing for it's own sake as a terminal value. Is there anything at all along the lines of "I know you don't care about being head librarian, but look at all the [insert benefits here] that it does for [insert one of our established interests or ambitions here], so don't worry about sinking time on something new and unrelated" that you could use to persuade me?


Because I don't want to fall into self pity, but not a single important vote since the Expedition ended has gone how I hoped. I didn't vote for Waystone Project, or Laurelorn, or the finalized Branch charter. Nothing but the Branch location and the actual existence of a Great Library in K8P. So I feel a bit irrationally down now.
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Sure. Here's a practical example.

So the Elves want to power up a Waystone. One of the considerations about the current state of the Project is Outside Influence and interference. So they want to see what kind of impact other Waystones/settlements/Magical Places might be having on the site.

So Mat goes home and assigns the Library with collecting the finest Maps of the Empire she can, as well as looking for any stories/legend/books on relevant legendary/magical societies/places nearby. Then she hands all that stuff off to the fellows of the New Colledge Branch, to figure out how all that might propagate into the World Winds and affect the site. Mat also politely asks the EIC to help the Library with acquisitions within the Empire and for any contributions their inteligence apparatus can make.

That's three half actions, all three bent to the service of the Waystone project.

EDIT: Note also that without those three organisation already being under her command, gathering the same kind of aid/data/resources would have made a significant dent in Mat's favor/cash reserves. Not to mention how long it would take to do alone.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Why would it not be? Buying books with Belegar's money without any institution was that specific, this is that only with a long more money and more people to dole it out
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Problem with rare books is that they are rare.
If we could get those books just by throwin money at someone we would not need the library, we could just throw money at people.
Main bottleneck is going to be finding books we do not already have, buying/copying them, and transporting them.
Also most of our needs are going to be fairly specific, dedicated on books that are likely either going to be in library of mourning, college libraries, or in personal collections.

Unless when you talk of finding books we need is just about getting occasional +1 or +2 to a skill roll by padding in generic books on a subject, in which case the AP usage feels like very wasteful from practical perspective.
And i feel that could be mostly done just by setting priorities on what subjects to focus on, and that seems like high level policy to me.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
I can feel you there, though not as much since I stayed out of the charter vote. I did get a win there since all the top plans had a gyrocopter. If you want someone to talk to about it my PMs are available.
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Nah. As I said it is irrational. Not much to talk about. Just have to wait it out.

Anyway, I was a bit overdramatic, since I did vote for Dhar Insight (but not Polyglot).

And everything that won was somewhere around third to fifth choice, not "please not X" level stuff.

I kinda regret even mentioning it.
primemountain said:
Sure. Here's a practical example.

So the Elves want to power up a Waystone. One of the considerations about the current state of the Project is Outside Influence and interference. So they want to see what kind of impact other Waystones/settlements/Magical Places might be having on the site.

So Mat goes home and assigns the Library with collecting the finest Maps of the Empire she can, as well as looking for any stories/legend/books on relevant legendary/magical societies/places nearby. Then she hands all that stuff off to the fellows of the New Colledge Branch, to figure out how all that might propagate into the World Winds and affect the site. Mat also politely asks the EIC to help the Library with acquisitions within the Empire and for any contributions their inteligence apparatus can make.

That's three half actions, all three bent to the service of the Waystone project.
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So it gives us the ability to spend organizational AP (whatever form that might take in the future) instead of money for an Extensive/Esoteric/Antiquarian bonus in multiple languages for a category, probably with a roll being involved to determine how much we get and crits resulting in something special or interesting.

That's something at least. Anything else?
 
Rafin said:
Nah. As I said it is irrational. Not much to talk about. Just have to wait it out.

Anyway, I was a bit overdramatic, since I did vote for Dhar Insight (but not Polyglot).

And everything that won was somewhere around third to fifth choice, not "please not X" level stuff.

I kinda regret even mentioning it.

So it gives us the ability to spend organizational AP (whatever form that might take in the future) instead of money for an Extensive/Esoteric/Antiquarian bonus in multiple languages for a category, probably with a roll being involved to determine how much we get and crits resulting in something special or interesting.

That's something at least. Anything else?
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There's always the intrigue option. If we need something for the Waystone Project, but don't want people to know we need it for the Waystone project, we can redirect to "Look at my massive Library Project."

The Diplo benefits aren't minor either. Working as Head Librarian of this thing will get us aquinted/contacts in a bunch of academic fields/other Libraries, which might be useful if we need to call in an expert. It's not just a bonus in terms of research materials, it's also a bonus to acquiring researchers. Having a wider circle of academia to call on (diplo benefits), when we get stuck with a problem as well as another angle to come at it from(the intrigue option).

Hell, we might be able to hide the whole Waystone Project budget behind the Library, so the Enemies of the Empire have a harder time figuring out that something is going on in the first place. That might be a second Intrigue option.

Like, remember, Mat met one of the main Dwarven Book traders for Barrak Varr, so we don't roll for most common Book acquisitions anymore. We just order them up. Stuff like that, in terms of diplo. Influence and Prestige of a different kind. It's kind of like still being Loremaster, without being Loremaster. Being Loremaster to the Library, instead of the Belegar directly, if that makes sense. That's still prestige, title, and opens doors.
 
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Valmond said:
Problem with rare books is that they are rare.
If we could get those books just by throwin money at someone we would not need the library, we could just throw money at people.
Main bottleneck is going to be finding books we do not already have, buying/copying them, and transporting them.
Also most of our needs are going to be fairly specific, dedicated on books that are likely either going to be in library of mourning, college libraries, or in personal collections.

Unless when you talk of finding books we need is just about getting occasional +1 or +2 to a skill roll by padding in generic books on a subject, in which case the AP usage feels like very wasteful from practical perspective.
And i feel that could be mostly done just by setting priorities on what subjects to focus on, and that seems like high level policy to me.
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I mean look at all the rare books we got by throwing money and DF at things, everything above the first two levels is rare, having a library is having an institution whose whole job is getting past the rarity gradient, that is for instance getting rare Bretonian magic books without having to go rescue the Lady's favorite puppy. They can just set up and exchange with an institution of scholar that has those books.

For another example these Tiilean books are not usable as is, no problem we have translators, high level policy will not allow us to spend those resources as required by the current task.
 
primemountain said:
There's always the intrigue option. If we need something for the Waystone Project, but don't want people to know we need it for the Waystone project, we can redirect to "Look at my massive Library Project."

The Diplo benefits aren't minor either. Working as Head Librarian of this thing will get us aquinted/contacts in a bunch of academic fields/other Libraries, which might be useful if we need to call in an expert. It's not just a bonus in terms of research materials, it's also a bonus to acquiring researchers. Having a wider circle of academia to call on (diplo benefits), when we get stuck with a problem as well as another angle to come at it from(the intrigue option).

Hell, we might be able to hide the whole Waystone Project budget behind the Library, so the Enemies of the Empire have a harder time figuring out that something is going on in the first place. That might be a second Intrigue option.
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Hmm, yeah. I don't know about the budget hiding, but those other ones are quite interesting. Especially the idea that, once we have our own exclusive and rare books, we can use those to horse trade and buy access to other libraries of renown throughout the Old World.

Though it would adulterate the Library's mission statement a bit, because we would arbitrarily deny copy access to "goodly folk" for our own petty benefit. It might enshrine a long term policy where paying scribes isn't enough to disseminate the knowledge within its halls and people are expected to also pay high-ish prices in money, favors or reciprocity on top of just the basic paper, ink and work hours.

I don't know how I feel about dragging the Library into Mathilde's own plans and politics. And I don't think that we'll refrain from doing that if we end up as head librarian either, seeing how it is the only major benefit apart from the book budget/discount.
 
DragonParadox said:
I mean look at all the rare books we got by throwing money and DF at things, everything above the first two levels is rare, having a library is having an institution whose whole job is getting past the rarity gradient, that is for instance getting rare Bretonian magic books without having to go rescue the Lady's favorite puppy. They can just set up and exchange with an institution of scholar that has those books.

For another example these Tiilean books are not usable as is, no problem we have translators, high level policy will not allow us to spend those resources as required by the current task.
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Yes, and now we have those books.
Books from Tilea will take lot more time just on transportation, let alone translating, which means we are unlikely to have them the same turn we decide we want them.
Anything that can be acquired just by throwing money and dwarves at a problem is going to be acquired with or without our personal involvement.
I seriously doubt library is going to do anything to help us get Bretonian magic books, we want those, we need to get some Damsels to join the waystone project.
 
Valmond said:
Yes, and now we have those books.
Books from Tilea will take lot more time just on transportation, let alone translating, which means we are unlikely to have them the same turn we decide we want them.
Anything that can be acquired just by throwing money and dwarves at a problem is going to be acquired with or without our personal involvement.
I seriously doubt library is going to do anything to help us get Bretonian magic books, we want those, we need to get some Damsels to join the waystone project.
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A turn is six months. I do not think we will be hiring sloths to do either transport or translation.
 
DragonParadox said:
A turn is six months. I do not think we will be hiring sloths to do either transport or translation.
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Transportation, possibly copying, translation, potentially scribing/printing/binding the translation into a book form.
Yes, 6 months is not necessarily that long.
Especially as we first need to find the damn books, which might take months if they are actually rare.
 
Valmond said:
Transportation, possibly copying, translation, potentially scribing/printing/binding the translation into a book form.
Yes, 6 months is not necessarily that long.
Especially as we first need to find the damn books, which might take months if they are actually rare.
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Well that is why you build up a network of contacts in the rare books business. You are treating the vast and well paid institution of the library like it is Joe Average who has to go to Tilea an start hunting books from square one.
 
Valmond said:
Yes, and now we have those books.
Books from Tilea will take lot more time just on transportation, let alone translating, which means we are unlikely to have them the same turn we decide we want them.
Anything that can be acquired just by throwing money and dwarves at a problem is going to be acquired with or without our personal involvement.
I seriously doubt library is going to do anything to help us get Bretonian magic books, we want those, we need to get some Damsels to join the waystone project.
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I agree here. The Esoteric/Antiquarian books represent rare books, but they don't represent specific rare books or even uniquely hard to get books. They are all just stuff that the Barak Varr merchants can scrounge up given enough money and and a broad category. This being a Transcendent Boon and Belegar being filthy rich and not bound to employer-employee relations and conscientious government budgeting anymore, I expect the Library to reach full saturation in all non-secret categories across all important Old World languages within a few years after the construction of the Library proper. The interesting stuff will start once we reach the level of looking for books that aren't being sold for just money and where being a well paying and honorable Dwarf isn't enough to get one's hands on them. In other words, the stuff that needs active involvement by someone with a bigger interest than "This is my budget. It's as large as a minor polity's military budget. What have you got for me today?".
 
DragonParadox said:
Well that is why you build up a network of contacts in the rare books business. You are treating the vast and well paid institution of the library like it is Joe Average who has to go to Tilea an start hunting books from square one.
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Vast? Library right now consists of a single piece of paper.
It is going to take a long time to get the library running, and it is going to take time to gather enough contacts to be able to say "we need rare books in this subject and some can be found in city X in Tilea".

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Also, what kind of need are you seeing for these books, because generic books so far just give a +1 or +2 to a skill roll.
anything more specific is going to be lot harder to find, and i thing our best bet for those is college libraries and library of Mourning.
 
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[x] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch for Esoteric Research
[x] (LIBRARY NAME) Bibliographical Order Of Karak-8-Peaks
[x] (LIBRARY NAME) The Library of Karak-Eight-Peaks / Kron-Azril-Ungol / The Archive of the Silvery Depths
 
Valmond said:
Vast? Library right now consists of a single piece of paper.
It is going to take a long time to get the library running, and it is going to take time to gather enough contacts to be able to say "we need rare books in this subject and some can be found in city X in Tilea".
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Well yes and so is building a College Branch and doing a Waystone project, all these will need time, but all of them will start out with unique and valuable resources just the same.
 
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