fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Why? We are the project manager we can just assign people to that.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Darth.
Definitely a heretic
- Location
- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Not really unless you're saying we could get a hag or ice witch to write a paper for us.
Boney said we won't be needing too much wealth. Also Belegar will be funding us to some extent and Laurelorn I'm sure can make up the rest given that they have wealth enough to make trees out of precious metals.
Kragg is not someone you want on the project since Belegar told us he'd just be breathing down our backs disapprovingly most likely the whole time and likely be opposed to anything new or radical. Same with Thorek though to a lesser extent.
We're going to need the elves no matter what. The Waystones are elven plus dwarven lore. Plus it's been repeatedly pointed out the elves won't be sabotaging the project for their gain. Why would the Eonir not want the other factions involved not knowing how to repair their own Waystones? It's to everyone's benefit to reduce the amount of Chaos in the world. They get zero benefit to pulling out early saying versus staying in until every breakthrough that can reasonably be made, has been made. You're just being paranoid about elves. If anything dwarves are just as likely to pull out saying "this is too radical and an offence to the ancestors, bye we're out of here" as the elves are to say "we got what we wanted now fuck off". I think Boney has proved he's not going to be conforming to fanon stereotypes.
We will need them period regardless of where we are since they'll be providing books on Waystone knowledge and the like. The Waystones are an elven construct, we can't do it without the elves regardless of where we set up shop.
Assigning people to do work still costs AP. We spend half an AP every turn on the Hochlander to manage the EIC spying.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Mat is necessary to even began the project, I'm sure she will be able to negotiate payements for us. Also, I doubt the Eonir would stab in the back the nation in which they are enclaved, and they have as much interest in stopping Choas as everyone else. Helping mankind to extend the Waystone network is in their best interest.
The Waystones everywhere in the Empire are made of stone, and we don't know if all the waystones in Laurelorn are trees. There could well be « normal » ones. Actually, I find it very unlikely that there would be stone waystones everywhere in the Old World except in Laurelorn.
Considering coin in general, Belegar will finance us everywhere (even if not as much as if we were in K8P), we have the EIC, and the Empire (and probably Kislev) will also give us money.
- Location
- South Africa
The issue is one of expertise. We could spend AP to set up a system to get the items with no AP, but unlike Carcassone I don't believe that the supply line is currently in place.
Darth.
Definitely a heretic
- Location
- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Also I'm not sure but I believe one of the Eonir's primary motivations for the project is to reduce their dependence on the trees and move back to the more durable stones by repairing them since the nordlanders keep cutting the trees down.
So since we won't be duplicating the waytrees, except maybe as a personal side project, the main project doesn't need so much wealth as it needs favours to get supplies and artifacts.
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- Location
- Australia
In the case of Grail Knights having kids, isn't it just them becoming Grail Knights after they've had children? As for Damsels having children, Knights of the Grail (p. 39) says there's no history of them ever having children. It seems they're sterile and many of them take advantage of that by having lots of sex.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
I'm equally concerned about the dwarves, but the dwarves are irreplaceable. The elves aren't.
We need the knowledge of the elves, but it's quite plausible that it'll be possible to keep working without ongoing elven support once we've worked out what to do - because humans can do the same types of magic as elves.
Humans cannot replace the dwarves so, unfortunately, we have to accept the risk that the dwarves may one day decide to go isolationist again and stop helping with waystones.
EDIT: Well that or, once the project is done, use our Grey Wizard Skillz to trick them into performing the Rite of Valaya on a human Aethyr-tied then training them as a Runesmith. Just in case it works.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Boney has explicitly refuted the claim that we should go anywhere other than Kislev if the goal is to help Kislev:
I'd like to point out (once again) that Kislev is one of the strongest nations in the Old World. They have a rich and diverse history which has seen the worst Chaos has to throw at it and survived each attempt. Kislev is the only major power north of the Empire because it was the only one strong enough to do so. Not even the Norse Dwarfs survived.
They have numerous magical traditions which are an order of magnitude older than the Empires traditions—traditions which are so highly respected that when a witch says jump the Tsar doesn't even bother to ask how high, he just jumps and hopes it's high enough.
Erengrad and Praag are two of the largest trade cities in the old world—Praag's on the fricken silk road people. Sure, they are competing against Marienburg, Altdorf and Barak Varr, which quite frankly is an indicator of how successful they are.
Kislevian soldiers are highly trained and mentally prepared for the next incursion, and every pass in and out of Kislev is closely watched. Also, the chaos wastes are about as close to Praag as Praag is to Altdorf, it's not like we'll be immediately next door to the wastes.
Boris has been raised from the cradle knowing that it is his responsibility to fight and to spite Chaos at every opportunity. If someone told him "we need to knock your palace down, the catapults need more ammunition" he'll start prising the bricks from the walls himself.
So when a foreign witch tells him that there's an ancient dwarven/elven super weapon under that palace, and she wants to switch it on, of course he's going to leap at the chance. Of course he's going to throw money and influence and power at it.
Because that's literally his purpose in life.
And people are treating that as a bad thing?
The only group who can match the wealth of Kislev is K8P, and they don't have witches or an active waystone we can play with.
Kislev is on the front lines against chaos? So's Carcassonne! Or do you think their chaos orc problem is insignificant?
Praag is a haunted city? So's Altdorf! Infested with Dhar? Every nation north of Araby lives in actual fear of one of the moons because it blankets the world in Dhar twice a year.
Arcane lore? It'll be easier to earn entry to the libraries of the elves later than it would to earn the sacred secrets of the cults of Kislev—secrets that are to only be used in the defence of Kislev. And the elves are providing experts who know that library like the back of their hands for free anyway. We don't need a library card if we're friends with the librarian, but the Ice and Hag Witches are not going to spill their secrets just because we spent a weekend galpaling with them.
Quite frankly, if we have any interest in saving the world from chaos, Kislev made us the best and most direct offer to that objective. The dwarfs want to see the works of the ancestors restored. The elves want to legitimise their nation on the international stage. The Bretonnians want someone to solve their orc problem.
Kislev wants to save the world.
They have numerous magical traditions which are an order of magnitude older than the Empires traditions—traditions which are so highly respected that when a witch says jump the Tsar doesn't even bother to ask how high, he just jumps and hopes it's high enough.
Erengrad and Praag are two of the largest trade cities in the old world—Praag's on the fricken silk road people. Sure, they are competing against Marienburg, Altdorf and Barak Varr, which quite frankly is an indicator of how successful they are.
Kislevian soldiers are highly trained and mentally prepared for the next incursion, and every pass in and out of Kislev is closely watched. Also, the chaos wastes are about as close to Praag as Praag is to Altdorf, it's not like we'll be immediately next door to the wastes.
Boris has been raised from the cradle knowing that it is his responsibility to fight and to spite Chaos at every opportunity. If someone told him "we need to knock your palace down, the catapults need more ammunition" he'll start prising the bricks from the walls himself.
So when a foreign witch tells him that there's an ancient dwarven/elven super weapon under that palace, and she wants to switch it on, of course he's going to leap at the chance. Of course he's going to throw money and influence and power at it.
Because that's literally his purpose in life.
And people are treating that as a bad thing?
The only group who can match the wealth of Kislev is K8P, and they don't have witches or an active waystone we can play with.
Kislev is on the front lines against chaos? So's Carcassonne! Or do you think their chaos orc problem is insignificant?
Praag is a haunted city? So's Altdorf! Infested with Dhar? Every nation north of Araby lives in actual fear of one of the moons because it blankets the world in Dhar twice a year.
Arcane lore? It'll be easier to earn entry to the libraries of the elves later than it would to earn the sacred secrets of the cults of Kislev—secrets that are to only be used in the defence of Kislev. And the elves are providing experts who know that library like the back of their hands for free anyway. We don't need a library card if we're friends with the librarian, but the Ice and Hag Witches are not going to spill their secrets just because we spent a weekend galpaling with them.
Quite frankly, if we have any interest in saving the world from chaos, Kislev made us the best and most direct offer to that objective. The dwarfs want to see the works of the ancestors restored. The elves want to legitimise their nation on the international stage. The Bretonnians want someone to solve their orc problem.
Kislev wants to save the world.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
My concern is more that the ones Laurelorn know how to make are ones that use gold and silver.
Although I would not be even slightly surprised to learn that regular waystones contain gold and/or silver under the surface and everyone who knows about that is careful not to mention it so folk don't go at them with pickaxes - with the big weakness of the Laurelorn tree ones being that it was visible and accessible.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Well if that's your only goal yes, but I think you're taking Boneys statement to far to large an extreme if you're using it to say Kislev can't be helped by the waystone project unless it's done in their backyard. What it means is we can't literally lock continuing the project in Kislev in 10 years time in game now as a carrot to draw them in to provide resources.
It doesn't mean we can't help Kislev full stop.
Degrees matter. Altdorf is not host to its own mini-Chaos wastes infested with cultists and mutants who cannot be removed because the streets are alive and sentient with malignant will that resists any purge. The Chaos moon does not make every city in the Old World that bad... no not even once a month. It is better to be under Morslieb in the Empire than in the middle of the day in the most infested places in Praag , that is why they are so desperate for a solution.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
From what I understand, the Eonir want our help to don't be dependent on those trees anymore. The Eonir can't make normal waystones, they are asking our help to do just that.
Personally, I think unlikely that all waystones contain gold or silver just because highly specific mini waystones (that are still dependent on the general waystones network) that are trees do.
At the end of the day, we have no idea. One of the project's goal is to learn more about the waystones.
Is that true, or is that an assumption?
People live in Praag. They saw the ruined ashes of their city, rebuilt it, and when the streets started bleeding they kept on living there for another 200 years.
Consider that nobody lives in Chernobyl, let alone enough people to turn into one of the largest and most thriving trade cities on the continent.
Praag is liveable. It is safe. It is home to tens of thousands of people who, when given the choice between bleeding streets and living on the Steppe as a nomad, collectively said "Eh, it's not that bad".
Darth.
Definitely a heretic
- Location
- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Uhhh I don't see how succeeding at Waystones in Laurelorn doesn't help Kislev. I'm pretty sure he meant getting their resources for the project plus all the ridiculous side quests people want to do. If we figure out how to do stuff with Waystones Kislev can throw resources at someone to do that stuff for them even if it isn't us. That is helping kislev fat more than if we went around swinging a sword for them.
No we can't do the same magic as elves - Mathilde is a long way away from being able to channel Qhaysh or runes related to those. Saying the elves are replaceable after the project is underway is ridiculous. Waystones are mastercrafted Elvish/Dwarven artifacts with dwarven Waystones being karags and elvish Waystones being smaller stones. We need both to understand the network in its entirety. Saying "na we just need the initial seed lore from the elves then we can go it ourselves" is ridiculous and I would hazard a guess @BoneyM agrees.
And regardless you're ignoring the entire paragraphs where I pointed out the elves won't just pull out.
Belegar has plenty of gold and silver to fund us with. Boney has said that the waystones project will not use so much gold as to actually need the wealth of an entire nation-state.
We don't need the entire wealth of Kislev. Boney has said this. You're getting influenced by Boris' marketing hype.
Praag is a bit more exposed than Carcassonne although not as much as it once was. That's not the biggest problem with Praag.
If you think Praag is in any way comparable to Altdorf I don't know what to tell you. The Dhar contamination is the biggest problem with praag and any chaos saboteurs will have a ready-made practically city-wide powerbase.
No, Kislev wants to save themselves from Chaos since they think their death is a matter of time. They won't be willing to sacrifice their entire nation to fight Chaos for the sake of others, stop romanticizing them.
Sooo the elves are selfish because they'll give us critical Waystone lore regardless but won't give personal access unless we're in Laurelorn but Kislev is great because it won't give us possibly critical lore that will "save the world" unless we put the project with them? Careful, your anti-elf bias is showing.
You can't say Kislev wants to save the world when we've been told by Boney that Kislev will withhold knowledge and resources unless we give them the status of being out backer. They're in it to save themselves not the world. And there's nothing wrong with that, but don't hype it up as though the others are worse for doing the same thing.
People live in some parts of Praag, those are livable. Other parts near the broken gate and the ruins of the Fire Spire are a mutant infested hellscape that cannot be burned only walled off. Any Chaos Sorcerer will look at that and see the perfect base.
What fucking anti-elf bias? I love the elves. Don't put fucking words in my mouth.
The witches of Kislev use their arcane secrets for the direct defence of Kislev. That's what I said. Engaging in magical research outside of Kislev doesn't directly benefit Kislev, so they won't aid us. The elves will aid us, and they'll give us personal access to their archives if we pick them, but we don't need those archives because they'll be sending experts who have read those books anyway. The library is a personal bribe to aid Mathilde's research. Lacking it won't affect the waystone project at all.
- Location
- United Kingdom
Well one of the ways I'm assuming this arc will be interesting rather than just a succession of turns playing with rocks is reagent hunting in various places. I would have thought we'd be sent off to such and such a far flung place otherwise things would get quite boring. There's a limited amount of fluff with meeting people and socialising, as well as actual research and development, but just turns and turns of sitting around would be quite dull, as actual academic stuff often is.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
I'm reasonably sure we could spend like a dozen turns at least at any of the non-K8P/Grey College location before we start running out of interesting material.
Darth.
Definitely a heretic
- Location
- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
So why is Kislev somehow noble for "saving the world" but only if the project is in their territory? Again, you're completely ignoring the "Kislev will withhold possibly critical information if they don't get what they want" and dressing it up as some good thing. Stop romanticizing Kislev just because of some hype spouted by a politician. Yes Kislev could help us, but if they thought those resources were really critical to the project and if they really wanted to save the world, they'd provide those resources regardless of location, if not quite to the same extent. Them not providing it at all, makes me sus as to how useful it'd be.
You're ignoring everything I said, and are basically saying Kislev's can-do attitude (but only if the project is in Kislev) is so good it outweighs everything and it'll all be perfect and Kislev wants to save the world because they're so selfless and the rest are only in it for themselves (restoring great works, establishing themselves on diplomatic stage).
Relevant quote:
If we want to save the world from chaos, finishing the Waystone project period is our best bet. Not finishing it in Kislev. The Grey Lords in Laurelorn are way more important and useful to deciphering elven artifacts like Waystones. There's only so much you can learn from copies of books and some practitioners that aren't the very best of the best. The library plus the Lords give us the greatest boost, followed by Morgiana's tower. Your only argument for Kislev is "Boris said he wants to do this very badly because he understands how important it is". If he truly understood the difficulty of this project, he'd be funding us while also allowing us to place it in the best place we think it should go, not where he thinks it should go. Only Belegar and Laurelorn gave us that option saying we'll give you everything you might need from us for the project regardless of where you put it.
I'm not going to scour the biography of every canonical Grail Knight in the hopes of finding a timeline of their family life, but I am utterly certain this is not the case. Every Duchy was founded by a Grail Knight, if each of them were sterile Bretonnia would have an extremely different social structure.
The exact wording is 'no tales of a Grail Damsel giving birth are known', which has several other possible interpretations beyond sterility.
Absolutely do not ping me to make me a party to you making a strawman of every argument you don't like. And I will remind you that SV has rules about spaghetti posting, and it's not even been a day since the last time I told you to wind it back.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Kislev believes that being the host of the Waystone project maximizes it's benefits.
Laurelorn believes that being the host of the Waystone project maximizes it's benefits.
Karak 8 Peaks believes that being the host of the Waystone project maximizes it's benefits.
The Grey College believes that being the host of the Waystone project maximizes it's benefits.
Carcassonne believes that being the host of the Waystone project maximizes it's benefits.