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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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So, after considering this thoroughly, i come to the conclusion that Belegar absolutely should not in any circumstances be told.

I have only came to this conclusion now because i did not realize what this tidbit meant in full.

BoneyM said:
"'Just as the Dwarves do,'" he repeats. "'Just as the Dwarves do.' Oh, Grimnir give me strength, Valaya give me wisdom, Thungni give me eyes to see the unseen. First Thorgrim did not send aid. Then the Crown was reassembled. Then Thorgrim sends aid. Oh, that sly old bastard."

"You think-" you begin, and then stop yourself, realizing that this fits exactly with Algard's concerns with Ulthuan. Magic being siphoned off across a continent for the benefit of a single central power, leaving those being robbed in ignorance. "Oh."

"'So long as the Rune of Azamar endures, the Karaz Ankor shall never fall.' Right there in plain sight, lying to all our faces. It's bloody powered off the Karaz Ankor, for the benefit of Karaz-a-Karak. I thought I'd put his beard to the fire when we spoke, but he's willing to send aid to fortify because it lets him rob my Kingdom blind." You remain silent, extremely uncomfortable with how this is escalating but not able to point out any outright errors in his reasoning. He sighs again. "Thank you. Once more I am in your debt."
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Belegar is so lost in his hate for Thorgrim that he thinks The High King, and Rune of Azamar, itself were made to rob the entire dwarf kind at the expense of Karaz-a-Karak. He is accusing not just Thorgrim, but every High King before him, up until Snorri Whitebeard and Grungni himself, who made the Rune in the first place.

This accusation may be indirect, and Belegar himself might not notice this rather logical conclusion, precisely because he has tunnel vision caused by his hateboner. As such, i don't think he can be trusted to be rational in this case. He should not be told, because if he is capable of twisting himself into this kind of pretzel, then woe us.
 
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If it really comes down to it, Belegar is one heartbeat away from going into a high king election where he'd be the odds-on favorite to win.

[X] Yes

Because Dwarf Kings are probably expected to talk something out before they jump straight to revenge and grudge war.

...probably
 
[X] No

We, the thread, know Thorgrim has a full on RTS gamer setup concerning the Karaz Ankor's status but Mathilde only has conjecture, that KaK learned about Vlag surprisingly quickly. I don't feel like that's solid enough evidence when alternative rune nonsense exists and will only worsen Belegar's confirmation bias.
 
Such a shame that High Priest got cut off.

At least this way, I could support the Princess faction more faithfully.

I just don't think we should go for the Waystone project before visiting the stealth elves.

[X] Yes

Do we have any IC reason to not divulge this information? Stress is one thing, but an Informed Belegar is surely better than not right?

Edit: Hmmm. I guess the tenuous evidence is valid, but I think it is not enough to outweigh the fact that Mathilde still managed a fairly reasonable assumption on the matter.
 
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TimEd said:
Do we have any IC reason to not divulge this information? Stress is one thing, but an Informed Belegar is surely better than not right?
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Informed of our speculation with unfortunate implications? Why would he? Better to not say anything untill we can investigate more and speak later if we find any proof either way.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
If Belegar gets angry enough, his "breaking point" will consist of him levelling the accusation at Thorgrim, and demanding recompense, as any wronged Dawi would. Either Thorgrim explains and Belegar withdraws the accusation, or Thorgrim pays him for the energy, or Thorgrim refuses to explain - and I do not believe that a canny operator like Thorgrim will let his Empire slip into civil war when he's aware of the problem.

Have a little faith in Belegar. He's not going to start a war on the spot.

[x] Yes
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So nothing is gained, expect that we can claim that we don't lie to him.

It won't make his life easier

It want change his policy for the better

And it want help his stress

Like, there is no win, the best outcome is that he bottles up the anger and takes one more step to shaving his head so that 'things normalise' as mathy put it to the chansiler.

Making the moral chose is a lot more complex then just not lying at this level.

The truth will just hurt him, but he'll be able to handle it is the best outcome?,

I am more the happy to lie if that's the case.

You dont tell someone at Low rise of jumping bad news if it's not going to change anything.
 
pucflek said:
So, after considering this thoroughly, i come to the conclusion that Belegar absolutely should not in any circumstances be told.

I have only came to this conclusion now because i did not realize what this tidbit meant in full.



Belegar is so lost in his hate for Thorgrim that he thinks The High King, and Rune of Azamar, itself were made to rob the entire dwarf kind at the expense of Karaz-a-Karak. He is accusing not just Thorgrim, but every High King before him, up until Snorri Whitebeard and Grungni himself, who made the Rune in the first place.

This accusation may be indirect, and Belegar himself might not notice this rather logical conclusion, precisely because he has tunnel vision caused by his hateboner. As such, i don't think he can be trusted to be rational in this case. He should not be told, because if he is capable of twisting himself into this kind of pretzel, then woe us.
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Belegar might not be completely rational about what he thinks is happening, but there is no world in which he goes straight from "thinks something bad is happening" to "CIVIL WAR NOW" without even saying anything to Thorgrim in the interim. He's not insane!
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
So nothing is gained, expect that we can claim that we don't lie to him.

It won't make his life easier

It want change his policy for the better

And it want help his stress

Like, there is no win, the best outcome is that he bottles up the anger and takes one more step to shaving his head so that 'things normalise' as mathy put it to the chansiler.

Making the moral chose is a lot more complex then just not lying at this level.

The truth will just hurt him, but he'll be able to handle it is the best outcome?,

I am more the happy to lie if that's the case.

You dont tell someone at Low rise of jumping bad news if it's not going to change anything.
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No, it pushes him to take his grievance to Thorgrim instead of stewing in silence. Stewing in silence and stressing over it in a slow slide to slayerdom is what's happening right now. Arguing not to tell him is arguing for that status quo.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
So nothing is gained, expect that we can claim that we don't lie to him.

It won't make his life easier

It want change his policy for the better

And it want help his stress

Like, there is no win, the best outcome is that he bottles up the anger and takes one more step to shaving his head so that 'things normalise' as mathy put it to the chansiler.

Making the moral chose is a lot more complex then just not lying at this level.

The truth will just hurt him, but he'll be able to handle it is the best outcome?,

I am more the happy to lie if that's the case.

You dont tell someone at Low rise of jumping bad news if it's not going to change anything.
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The only way this is gonna get better is by Belegar knowing more.
We, personally, can't find out much more, because Thorgrim certainly won't tell us ancient dwarven secrets just like that.

So the best case is when Belegar pushes things and Thorgrim has to solve the issue without causing a civil war.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Belegar might not be completely rational about what he thinks is happening, but there is no world in which he goes straight from "thinks something bad is happening" to "CIVIL WAR NOW" without even saying anything to Thorgrim in the interim. He's not insane!
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He did technically accuse an Ancestor God of theft, even if he does not realize it. Either way, increasing the rift between the two doesn't seem to be the way to go to me.

EDIT: Hell, we are due a visit with the High King anyway. We can just ask him. He owes us one hell of a boon.
 
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I do not want to lie to our friend, our employer and our confidant, especially not ever what is mostly OOC information and yes it would be lying even if it is just by omission.
 
Afforess said:
[X] No

I haven't seen the case really made for a "Yes" vote here. What possible good consequences could this have? If any?
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It means Belegar knows that Borek was aware and that it is used as a signal that a dwarfhold is fallen - so Thorgrim's tune changed when K8P stopped being fallen.

It means a higher chance of them actually talking it out rather than it stewing and forever tainting the relationship and every action Thorgrim takes until eventually civil war becomes inevitable - because if it never gets openly addressed Belegar will eventually snap at Thorgrim.

EDIT: And if that snap happens in 50 years, that'll be 50 years worth of minor issues that have become Grudges because of the context, and therefore even explaining the truth of the waystones wouldn't stop it at that point because those other Grudges would remain.

[X] Yes
 
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pucflek said:
He did technically accuse an Ancestor God of theft, even if he does not realize it. Either way, increasing the rift between the two doesn't seem to be the way to go to me.
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The rift is already there. We aren't suggesting a whole new thing to be mad about, we're giving evidence that he will see as supporting his theory that he already believes. If it pushes him to say something about it, that's great, because then the misunderstanding can be resolved.

It will absolutely not push him to start a war without attempting any other solution, and it is madness to suggest otherwise.

A huge part of this problem is that Thorgrim doesn't know there's a problem, and so can't try and resolve it.
 
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