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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[x] ACTION: Turn back
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
 
ReImagined said:
We did find out. That's the point. Finding out more than that seems to be about Mathilde's personal curiosity on magical theory rather than the practical demands of whether KD is salvageable by the Karaz Ankor. It's not, because of the presence of Morghur is anathema to them on a level not dissimilar to Hashut. This is corroborated by Borek resigning himself and telling us to tell the Karaz Ankor what happened.

A case can be made for how this has all sorts of strategic implications, but a new threat from the Chaos Wastes on the far side of the existing Chaos Dwarfholds is a drop in the bucket because the Chaos Wastes already have plenty of threats on or exceeding this level.
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It might be salvagable, Dum clearly considers themselves a part of the Karaz Ankor, or else why would they send waystone power down that way. Dwarves being ashamed of something doesn't mean its unforgivable, that's why the Dalaz Kron works, and how recompense works.

The threat that a chaos aligned Dum represents is not angry dwarves with axes invading Kislev, its the Dum dwarves coming up with new goodies for destro factions, like the dwarves of the east did with Hellcannons and Black Orcs.
 
wrecksalot said:
It might be salvagable, Dum clearly considers themselves a part of the Karaz Ankor, or else why would they send waystone power down that way. Dwarves being ashamed of something doesn't mean its unforgivable, that's why the Dalaz Kron works, and how recompense works.

The threat that a chaos aligned Dum represents is not angry dwarves with axes invading Kislev, its the Dum dwarves coming up with new goodies for destro factions, like the dwarves of the east did with Hellcannons and Black Orcs.
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Because it is what the waystone does and doing so helps them keep dhar out?

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Deathbybunnies said:
It's not a suicide pact, but this isn't suicide. Mathilde can trivially sneak past the beastmen to take a sneaky look in the dwarf hold, which she's an expert at from her time in K8P.
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We are not actually sure they are beastmen, and even if they were, i would not bet on trivial, Beastmen do have shamans, and this being chaos wastes, there could be lot stranger things about.
 
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Valmond said:
Please explain your plan to help them
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None of what I hope to achieve by investigating or learning more has anything to do with helping Karag Dum. All other things aside, I think Borek is correct in his resignation. He has probably thought through various "break points" on what would be acceptable and what would not.

Honestly. This are two of my reasonable hopes, assuming we can talk to people here:

We find out if the magic coming from this Karak is a reliable source, or if it is at active risk of corruption and needs to be cut off in the future.

We get metal to cover the damaged bits of the track, or at least get some of this wood and have Max cast Law of Form on the wood (strength and rigidity of steel) on it. (Hmm. Would layered an sewn cowskin count as "an object," or would we need a number of wooden beams? I don't wanna annoy BoneyM about this atm)

This are several of my more wild hopes:

Provided the dwarves here are not corrupt by empire standards (even though they have (as I take from Borke's statements), failed in some absolute manner by dwarven standards), then talking to them and learning every-damm-thing possible sounds good. If they are not corrupt, but just maximum kickflip, we (and other wizards) can ask all[1] the questions.

Theories have been posted about the Rune of Valeria being made into a big Rune of Valeria's Vengeance to burn off dhar. What if those notes could be written down and brought (on Mathilde's honor) to Runesmiths in the Karak Ankor. Those runesmiths might be able to reconfigure/modify some waystones in places in Sylviana to be set to "burn dhar in the area".

Or other insights that it might be useful for other wizards on the expedition to bring to the colleges that it might be... impolitic for Mathilde to be aware of (Though weather those insights can be sanitised enough to be politically safe to use is another mater)

Do the dwarven engineers in this Karak give a fuck about guild secrets at this point? I'd not ask Max, Johann or even Mathilde to try this, but if any of the other humans were to get notes or in depth hints/instructions, well, that would be lovely

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Just some thought about the possible benefits. (But a big one is getting an idea of how reliable the magic channel is)

Edit: [1] I mean it, if this Karak has gone "maximum pragmatic, throw out all tradition (but do not fall) to help the Karak Ankor survive, then the Empire will never be in a better position to ask for teachings in science, engineering and possibly even magic shit - all the Empire has to do is promise to never use these secrets against the Karak Ankor (and carefully sanitise them) and boom! Deal done!

Deathbybunnies said:
It's not a suicide pact, but this isn't suicide. Mathilde can trivially sneak past the beastmen to take a sneaky look in the dwarf hold, which she's an expert at from her time in K8P.
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BoneyM made mention of how Mathilde casting the "Ulgu Telescope" lens cantrips may be unwise in the presence of this demigod, and her "trivial sneaking unless people are looking for magic" thing is based on her having access (as I understand it) invisibility and smoke-and-mirrors.

The beastmen know we are here, and without magic Mathilde will be moving over open sand. She can not hide without casting.
 
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Sovereign Hunt said:
Which is why we have a duty to stay, and figure out what the hell is going on.
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We really don't, though. We came here to bring Borek back to his people, bring them back south if possible, and take any artefacts in the process. None of that is feasible anymore. Whatever is the reason that explain it, it's bad enough that Borek want no one knowing about it, else he would have told us.
It's annoying to leave without knowing what's going on, yes, but we did what we came here to do, and we still have to leave the place alive. Taking unnecessary risks to learn a truth nobody wants us to learn strike me as a rather silly decision to take.
 
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
 
Valmond said:
We are not actually sure they are beastmen, and even if they were, i would not bet on trivial, Beastmen do have shamans, and this being chaos wastes, there could be lot stranger things about.
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Mathilde has a trait that lets her infiltrate without a roll unless the target is specifically hardened against magic infiltration, like she did with the Seventh-And-Final Combe. Karag Dum itself is probably such a target, but the beastmen in the forest outside aren't. So long as she doesn't start any fights or try to sabotage anything etc., she can just slip past them trivially.
 
Omegahugger said:
Presumeably because they don't think it explains things well enough.

I wrote that post and even I admit that it is partially based on guesses and assumptions. If you think those do not apply (as many people do), then you obvious shouldn't vote for the conclusion derived from it.
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Gap said:
Actually it may be for a format reason. Personally I didn't vote because I'm not keeping up with the thread so I hit tally and read the existing ones, which Omegahugger (theory) has no description of.

Now that I went through search tool to find all the Omegahugger post since the update (which are a lot) I managed to find it and may vote for it.
Though while OOC I agree with the possibility it seems like a leap for IC. Does the Empire knows how his reincarnation works? And on dwarves?
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Because there's no easy way (for me) to know what that theory is when casting a vote.

It's a nondescriptive vote title, it'd be a chore even for Boney to go hunting back through what, 100+ pages looking for it, is every poster supposed to do the same?
 
BeepSmile said:
None of what I hope to achieve by investigating or learning more has anything to do with helping Karag Dum. All other things aside, I think Borek is correct in his resignation. He has probably thought through various "break points" on what would be acceptable and what would not.

Honestly. This are two of my reasonable hopes, assuming we can talk to people here:

We find out if the magic coming from this Karak is a reliable source, or if it is at active risk of corruption and needs to be cut off in the future.

We get metal to cover the damaged bits of the track, or at least get some of this wood and have Max cast Law of Form on the wood (strength and rigidity of steel) on it. (Hmm. Would layered an sewn cowskin count as "an object," or would we need a number of wooden beams? I don't wanna annoy BoneyM about this atm)

This are several of my more wild hopes:

Provided the dwarves here are not corrupt by empire standards (even though they have (as I take from Borke's statements), failed in some absolute manner by dwarven standards), then talking to them and learning every-damm-thing possible sounds good. If they are not corrupt, but just maximum kickflip, we (and other wizards) can ask all the questions.

Theories have been posted about the Rune of Valeria being made into a big Rune of Valeria's Vengeance to burn off dhar. What if those notes could be written down and brought (on Mathilde's honor) to Runesmiths in the Karak Ankor. Those runesmiths might be able to reconfigure/modify some waystones in places in Sylviana to be set to "burn dhar in the area".

Or other insights that it might be useful for other wizards on the expedition to bring to the colleges that it might be... inpolitic for Mathilde to be aware of (Though weather those insights can be sanitised enough to be politically safe to use is another mater)

Do the dwarven engineers in this Karak give a fuck about guild secrets at this point? I'd not ask Max, Johann or even Mathilde to try this, but if any of the other humans were to get notes or in depth hints/instructions, well, that would be lovely

----
Just some thought about the possible benefits. (But a big one is getting an idea of how reliable the magic channel is)
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And if you feel that studying this is useful to us, that is another thing.
But they were literally saying we could help Karag Dum, which is another thing entirely.

As for talking to them to learn things, we still have bunch of devout knights, dwarves, and wizards who may end up reacting lethally to us trying to do that.
I doubt any information they would be willing to share would be worth the risk, to us, to the expedition, or even to them.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Mathilde has a trait that lets her infiltrate without a roll unless the target is specifically hardened against magic infiltration, like she did with the Seventh-And-Final Combe. Karag Dum itself is probably such a target, but the beastmen in the forest outside aren't. So long as she doesn't start any fights or try to sabotage anything etc., she can just slip past them trivially.
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Holy shit, like a thing Tzeenth or ulgu shamans might try?
Again, chaos wastes, magic is far more common here than anywhere else.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Mathilde has a trait that lets her infiltrate without a roll unless the target is specifically hardened against magic infiltration, like she did with the Seventh-And-Final Combe. Karag Dum itself is probably such a target, but the beastmen in the forest outside aren't. So long as she doesn't start any fights or try to sabotage anything etc., she can just slip past them trivially.
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Mathilde is very good at sneaking.

She also uses magic to help her out while sneaking which her Unseen trait is based on. Magic which Cor-Dum makes vastly harder and the consequences of a miscast vastly worse.

There will be a roll under these circumstances.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Mathilde has a trait that lets her infiltrate without a roll unless the target is specifically hardened against magic infiltration, like she did with the Seventh-And-Final Combe. Karag Dum itself is probably such a target, but the beastmen in the forest outside aren't. So long as she doesn't start any fights or try to sabotage anything etc., she can just slip past them trivially.
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BoneyM said:
Unseen: Unless specifically on the lookout for magical infiltration, active defences are no obstacle to you. +2 Intrigue.
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The Kurgan have shamans that worship the winds, though. If one of them is Ulgu, then they could very well be looking out for magical infiltration.

And why infiltrate? If they're allies, supposedly, then all we need to do is open a line of communication and ask. If they're enemies, then you're trying to sneak past what appears to be a demigod that hardcounters most of our repertoire.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
It's not a suicide pact, but this isn't suicide. Mathilde can trivially sneak past the beastmen to take a sneaky look in the dwarf hold, which she's an expert at from her time in K8P.
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If you honestly believe that it will be 'trivial' to sneak past the defenses of a dwarf hold dedicated to holding back daemons you not taking this seriously.
 
I get the feeling that the desert line demarks the edge of the chaos waste - whatever is in there is somehow 'outside' the chaos wastes.
 
Valmond said:
Holy shit, like a thing Tzeenth or ulgu shamans might try?
Again, chaos wastes, magic is far more common here than anywhere else.
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Sure, but beastmen. They aren't going to be prepared like that.

LightLan said:
Mathilde is very good at sneaking.

She also uses magic to help her out while sneaking which her Unseen trait is based on. Magic which Cor-Dum makes vastly harder and the consequences of a miscast vastly worse.

There will be a roll under these circumstances.
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Cor-Dum's magical abilities? You mean like the hyper-mutation field he can't control or turn off, which this "Cor-Dum" doesn't have, given that neither Borek nor all of the trees around him aren't being twisted into unholy abominations? Those magical abilities?

Mr Apollo said:
If you honestly believe that it will be 'trivial' to sneak past the defenses of a dwarf hold dedicated to holding back daemons you not taking this seriously.
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I explicitly said sneaking past the beastmen to take a look at the hold, not sneaking into the hold itself.

I mean, I want to do that too, I just think there'll be a roll.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
Mathilde has a trait that lets her infiltrate without a roll unless the target is specifically hardened against magic infiltration, like she did with the Seventh-And-Final Combe. Karag Dum itself is probably such a target, but the beastmen in the forest outside aren't. So long as she doesn't start any fights or try to sabotage anything etc., she can just slip past them trivially.
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This was in my long-post above, but because BoneyM said Mathilde is not willing to use Ulgu lenses to get a better look at the beastmen because her fear of the demigod person being in the general area making casting risky (my memory on the actual post is really hazy, sorry), then I think that any magical elements to her infiltration should be discounted for this. She would be travelling openly over bare sand.
 
storryeater said:
... We were literally named Dawi because they could not accept us being a human. They haven't done that for Sigmar. And they certainly haven't done that for pre war of the beard elgi, who they trusted enough to politely ask for explanations twice, even after being rudely dismissed, for genuine Dwarven deaths, they had to shave the beard to make them tip.

Edit: plus, we'll simply communicate the truth, not necessarilly take a stance.
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The trick will be managing to convey how significant the Karag Dum waystone still being uncorrupted is without touching on the Rune of Valaya in front of non-dwarves. It's actually more crucial than Mathilde even knows, since she's not in Thorgrim's head.

Shit, ever since Vlag came out of the Warp, Thorgrim has been getting two Karaks worth of extra energy powering his grid. His head must have been in the process of exploding for the last three weeks since Vlag.
ctulhuslp said:
Greys of all people respect the need for grey morality and shades of grey and unreliable allies. Hell, we have a literal Skaven in our dungeon writing academic papers, and he isn't even Order-aligned - he explicitly refuses to talk about some topics 'cause that would harm interested of Skaven and Moulder, so it's clear that he's still loyal to them, and yet we are not, like, obligated to execute him.
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065tdsa said:
Because he's in our dungeon. Also, he's not really dangerous in and of himself, not like he's a Sorcerer or anything.
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Really, the only logical move here is to drag Morghur back and stick him in our dungeon
 
BeepSmile said:
This was in my long-post above, but because BoneyM said Mathilde is not willing to use Ulgu lenses to get a better look at the beastmen because her fear of the demigod person being in the general area making casting risky (my memory on the actual post is really hazy, sorry), then I think that any magical elements to her infiltration should be discounted for this. She would be travelling openly over bare sand.
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BoneyM said:
That won't make the forest any less shadowy, and from what she's heard casting spells around Morghur might not be the best idea.
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Boney quote here.
I'm not picklepikkl, i swear :)
 
Guile said:
The trick will be managing to convey how significant the Karag Dum waystone still being uncorrupted is without touching on the Rune of Valaya in front of non-dwarves. It's actually more crucial than Mathilde even knows, since she's not in Thorgrim's head.
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I maintain that the fact they're literally draining the Chaos Wastes and stopping them from spreading southward - not just that they have done so in the past, but that they are actively doing so now - is the most important bit of its significance Mathilde knows about, and we can explain that just fine without mentioning the Rune of Valaya given as the Rune of Valaya isn't actually involved.

Not mentioning that it's a waystone? In vlag we just blamed guild and dwarf secrets. Seems to work.

Albeit it will clue people in that they might be connected, but I think that's a minor cost.

Hence:
[ ] THEORY: Based on Guild and Dwarf secrets we can tell that Karag Dum is slowing the spread of the Chaos Wastes.
 
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Guile said:
Shit, ever since Vlag came out of the Warp, Thorgrim has been getting two Karaks worth of extra energy powering his grid. His head must have been in the process of exploding for the last three weeks since Vlag.
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I wonder if Protector triggered for that increased Energy Flow.
BoneyM said:
- The Protector: When you act in a way that defends an individual or group from a danger that you did not cause, they will become aware of what you have done and will believe you acted selflessly in doing so.
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Our act defended all Dawi of the Karaz Ankor from the failing of the Runes of Valaya.
We did not cause the reduction of the Energy Flow.

They will become aware of what Mathilde has done and believe she acted selflessly.

Nowhere does it state that Mathilde has to know she protected the Karaz Ankor.
 
Valmond said:
And if you feel that studying this is useful to us, that is another thing.
But they were literally saying we could help Karag Dum, which is another thing entirely.

As for talking to them to learn things, we still have bunch of devout knights, dwarves, and wizards who may end up reacting lethally to us trying to do that.
I doubt any information they would be willing to share would be worth the risk, to us, to the expedition, or even to them.
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Yeah, sorry, I may have jumped in tangentially, sorry.
No, really, tangential jump-ins are a dishonest debate tactic, so if that's what I did here, then I am sorry.

I don't think that we can do much to help Karag Dum, Borke's reaction of resignation confirms it to me. Best we can possibly hope for is for this Karak.. [thinks a bit]: the hold is not corrupt in terms of chaos, but is fully shamed. It is a hold that can only be, as a whole; "living slayer" where all it can do is send magic down to the Karak Ankor and maybe attrit some chaos bands. That is it. Untill one day it is ended/corrupted or the Karak Ankor ends.

But, upon the assumptions that:
- Morghur is non hostile and non-chaos/dhar
- The Beastmen are the same
- There are dwarves we can talk to in the Karak, or [insert some theories from earlier in the thread] the Beastmen are the dwarves and hold their understanding of physics/engineering/runesmithing

Then there is much to be gained that can potentially benefit the Empire and all possibly anti-chaos peoples (e.g (temporarily) reconfigure waystones to burn dhar in a given radius, dwarven engineering guild secrets)

My idea was not Mathilde taking all these notes, but also some of the witzies that can keep their mouths shut. Maybe, maybe some of the non-witzies...
Not Max, and maybe not Johann, 'cuz he converted to Ancestor worship. Asking him to do that might be a dick move.
 
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