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Also, we shouldn't be worried about sneaking past the beastmen. Just a few updates again Mathilde sneaked into the Seventh-And-Final Combe without a roll, because of this trait:
Unseen: Unless specifically on the lookout for magical infiltration, active defences are no obstacle to you. +2 Intrigue.
Dum itself might be another matter - though after the events of the Karak Eight Peaks Expedition infiltrating possible-hostile dwarfholds has got to be one of Mathilde's specialities - but she can trivially sneak past some beastmen in a forest, if she doesn't start any trouble there.
 
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I really doubt Mathilde can do anything to the Waystone that the Runemasters can't undo.

Thorgrim's monitor said there wasn't energy from Dum. Only 1 connection, through Vlag.
Might be able to blow it up.
Not sure if we should, or would survive the aftermath.

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The ideas is to be cautious without being paranoid. Ideally the expedition will start small such as examinging bones, the forest, consulting the wizards, detect signs of corruption before contemplating approaching Karag Dum to parley, once enough information has been gathered, currently there are positive clues that Karag Dum has not fallen or to be more specific hope that Karag Dum has not fallen.
Being cautious takes time, time means new threats may manifest, either because Kurgan decide to attack us, or the wastes spit out something weird and dangerous, or the Dum inhabitants decide we are a threat.
 
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- there is a technique to cleanse Beastmen and make them Order-aligned
- there is a legit Order stronghold out in the Wastes that will welcome adventurers and researchers from Order factions traveling out here
- there is a new Order stronghold offering gods-know-what information, goods, and services

Even if those are true, others won't accept them.
We got Daemon checked for delivering three very good papers.

We tell Algard that he honestly should ally with someone who has Cor-Dum enthralled and we'll get Daemon-checked again. Then checked if we were thralled and if both of those come back negative we'll get a transfer to Fredericksheim.
 
I disagree with the notion that our job here is done, if knowing that Dum might have fallen to chaos was sufficient, we should've just declared the expedition a success before we even left.

Knowing if we need to worry about Black Orcs 2, now with more beastmen seems highly strategically valuable. The problem with Dum falling to chaos isn't that they're going to rush Kislev with axes, it's that if they do then Chaos has just found another way to get powerful items to all it's forces, and gained another Chaos research institute.

One more Chaotic Dwarf faction that is farther away than the actual Chaos Dwarves doesn't add that much more to the pile. To be clear, I'm not saying that they have fallen, only that if they did, it's not appreciably more than what the threat of everything in the Chaos Wastes already is or what the Chaos Dwarves already provide.

Vlag wasn't blocking the chain from Dum, if that's what you mean. They were receiving power from it, but Dum sends its power down many routes because Dwarves believe in redundancy.

In fact, OOC, it's entirely possible that Dum saved the Karaz Ankor by refusing to allow their waystone to fall, no matter the cost.
When we got the Thorgrim interlude, KD and Vlag were both disconnected, so they weren't powering the Rune of Azamar.
 
Too far to be a realistic threat, too far to be proper allies, we lack the knowledge to make any real judgement on how this will affect Vlag, and even less so to judge its effect on the waystone network.

At this point the best, most reliably useful, thing to do is to get out and inform Kragg and Thorek of what we have seen, and get started on thewaystone project ASAP, not only because we need to know more to understand what the fuck is going on here, but because potentially replacing, repairing, or even making, waystones just got way more important.

If we are worried about the effects on network, we can come back and explode the waystone between here and Vlag.

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Realisticly, nobody is coming back here in years, if not decades, possibly ever, and if/when they do, they will see Karag Dum as the enemy, and us trying to change that last bit is likely to get us branded as the enemy, or just dismissed at best.


So your saying its ok to abandon them just because they are far away to be allies or enemies, withouth verifying their status, just because its more convenient to run away.

What about the survivors that might be expecting help to arrive. not checking on them is doing a subpar job in reporting to Belegar, plus if they need help then we need the whole story to tell to Belegar and other high ranking dwarfs
 
You don't know that Dum dwarfs are chaos-aligned, clues showed that they might not have fallen to chaos, such as the Waystone, if they are chaos aligned the flow of energy from Karag Dum would be corrupted, yet it is not.
That is precisely my point. We don't know. Therefore, we must investigate.
Even if those are true, others won't accept them.
We got Daemon checked for delivering three very good papers.

We tell Algard that he honestly should ally with someone who has Cor-Dum enthralled and we'll get Daemon-checked again. Then checked if we were thralled and if both of those come back negative we'll get a transfer to Fredericksheim.
This isn't 40k. Sure, the Colleges will check us, the other wizards, and probably the knights too, for corruption. Once they determine we aren't corrupted and are telling the truth, they'll be all over that shit.
 
Please, anyone thinking of all the good things Dum might mean, do think of how rest of the setting will react.
Trying to make friends here may end up with us dead, even if everything goes right.
It's not likely, but also not impossible, because people take threat of chaos and corruption (and not just visible physical corruption) deadly seriously.
 
So your saying its ok to abandon them just because they are far away to be allies or enemies, withouth verifying their status, just because its more convenient to run away.

What about the survivors that might be expecting help to arrive. not checking on them is doing a subpar job in reporting to Belegar, plus if they need help then we need the whole story to tell to Belegar and other high ranking dwarfs

Borek made a judgement call, and his judgement was to tell us to turn back and tell the Karaz Ankor what happened. The survivors will know what to expect from Borek.
 
So your saying its ok to abandon them just because they are far away to be allies or enemies, withouth verifying their status, just because its more convenient to run away.

What about the survivors that might be expecting help to arrive. not checking on them is doing a subpar job in reporting to Belegar, plus if they need help then we need the whole story to tell to Belegar and other high ranking dwarfs
Yes, yes i am.
There is nothing we can do the help them, and much we can do the harm them, and us, and those who are our responsibility.
We have done what we came to do, now let's try to keep our people alive, and not get burned as a heretic.
 
We already know that there are going to be grudges leveled. Why would we ever want to burden the Dwarves with more grudges they can't settle?
As of right now it looks like Borek got headpats from Morghur. That's not a good look for Borek and finding more information can potentially alleviate that. If we leave right now then that's the report we bring back.
Risking lives to determine grudges is one part of dwarven culture I do not want Mathilde to adapt.
We don't need to risk lives for information here. There's a variety of levels of risk we can take in our investigation from looking at bones and using telescopes to look at trees (basically no risk) all the way up to sending people into the forest (insanely risky). Unsurprisingly I advocate for starting with low risk investigations that can bring high rewards.

As far as risk goes the highest I'd likely accept is having Asarnil fly up and shoot a message into the forest and/or having Mathilde talk with the local tribes.
 
Even if those are true, others won't accept them.
We got Daemon checked for delivering three very good papers.

We tell Algard that he honestly should ally with someone who has Cor-Dum enthralled and we'll get Daemon-checked again. Then checked if we were thralled and if both of those come back negative we'll get a transfer to Fredericksheim.

Greys of all people respect the need for grey morality and shades of grey and unreliable allies. Hell, we have a literal Skaven in our dungeon writing academic papers, and he isn't even Order-aligned - he explicitly refuses to talk about some topics 'cause that would harm interested of Skaven and Moulder, so it's clear that he's still loyal to them, and yet we are not, like, obligated to execute him.
 
Greys of all people respect the need for grey morality and shades of grey and unreliable allies. Hell, we have a literal Skaven in our dungeon writing academic papers, and he isn't even Order-aligned - he explicitly refuses to talk about some topics 'cause that would harm interested of Skaven and Moulder, so it's clear that he's still loyal to them, and yet we are not, like, obligated to execute him.
Because he's in our dungeon. Also, he's not really dangerous in and of himself, not like he's a Sorcerer or anything.
 
This isn't 40k. Sure, the Colleges will check us, the other wizards, and probably the knights too, for corruption. Once they determine we aren't corrupted and are telling the truth, they'll be all over that shit.
You're right, this isn't 40k.

But the only precedent that exists for this is the Dawi-Zharr and Hashut.
And that's what everyone will think about first when we tell them.
That's a steep hill to die on.

On the other hand this is far away from the empire. There's Kislev, Karak Vlag, Chaos Dwarves, Skaven and the Steppes between the Empire and that problem.

Why should he risk his limited political capital to assist them?

When the Colleges got declared illegal and wizard hunts started during his lifetime?
 
Dum can mean darkness in dwarves, and shadows are made of darkness. Morghur's title is Shadowgave. This is spooky.
Cor could also be a corruption of Kor meaning realm, which means the dwarf name for Morghur could plausibly be translated as Shadow Realm.

Inb4 this was a Yugioh cross all along, or that Morghur's reality-altering aura actually is Ulgu-based rather than Chaos-based somehow.
 
Because he's in our dungeon. Also, he's not really dangerous in and of himself, not like he's a Sorcerer or anything.
But the cost of removing him is zero, so point of "Greys are not as fanatical about moral purity as memetic 40K puritan inquisitor" still mostly stands.
There are exceptions and hard lines to not cross, but I do not think "there are weird Dawi offshots that did Apparition-esque bullshit on Morghur and are somehow cleaning Dhar out of the area, proving concept of cleansing area of chaotic corruption" would get us, like, sanctioned. Confused looks and independent verifications and double-checks, sure, but if anything they'll be happy about Order now having some way to clean out Dhar on geographic scales, if that's what's happening.
 
Greys of all people respect the need for grey morality and shades of grey and unreliable allies. Hell, we have a literal Skaven in our dungeon writing academic papers, and he isn't even Order-aligned - he explicitly refuses to talk about some topics 'cause that would harm interested of Skaven and Moulder, so it's clear that he's still loyal to them, and yet we are not, like, obligated to execute him.
We are also not allowed to let him leave alive. Qrech will eventually die of old age in our care.
We've made him as comfortable as we could, but he still is a prisoner for life.

The people who know we have him are also limited for good reason.
IIRC it's Belegar, Algard, Johann and that's already it.

The only reason why we are even allowed to let him live is the information we got through him.

"there are weird Dawi offshots that did Apparition-esque bullshit on Morghur
The difference between an Apparition and a Daemon is explicitly what Mathilde intends to use as a defence to not get executed.
Binding Daemons is a hard line to cross with the Articles of Magic, the do not use dark magic line.
Cor-Dum is way beyond that line.
 
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As of right now it looks like Borek got headpats from Morghur. That's not a good look for Borek and finding more information can potentially alleviate that. If we leave right now then that's the report we bring back.

We don't need to risk lives for information here. There's a variety of levels of risk we can take in our investigation from looking at bones and using telescopes to look at trees (basically no risk) all the way up to sending people into the forest (insanely risky). Unsurprisingly I advocate for starting with low risk investigations that can bring high rewards.

As far as risk goes the highest I'd likely accept is having Asarnil fly up and shoot a message into the forest and/or having Mathilde talk with the local tribes.
Staying in the Chaos Wastes risks lives, fundamentally. Leaving aside the passive dhar taint that everybody besides us is accumulating, some people want to contact the Kurgan, who have at least a 1 on a 1d6 of turning hostile immediately, and a 5 or 6 (looking for alliances) would undoubtedly result in hostilities either against the Beastmen or when we don't attack the beastmen. The knights also stopped scouting because of the passive environmental dangers, and looking around to find clues sounds an awfully lot like scouting.
 
Yes, yes i am.
There is nothing we can do the help them, and much we can do the harm them, and us, and those who are our responsibility.
We have done what we came to do, now let's try to keep our people alive, and not get burned as a heretic.


There is a way to help them, but before that we have to investigate, see if they are beyond help, what their status is, number of survivors, sane or insane, corrupted or noncorrupted, if they are holding out, if they are in danger of falling to the kurgans. But that requires investigation, currently our people are not in danger besides the chaos wasteland, and this expedition has always been dangerous, thats why we have the various group gathered, which is to accomplish this mission, if you wanted to avoid danger, you might as well not have started the expedition, not have tried to rescue Karag Vlag. Danger has always been part of the expediton, which is normal, and we have to assess Karag Dum, not bring inconclusive news to Belegar.
 
As of right now it looks like Borek got headpats from Morghur. That's not a good look for Borek and finding more information can potentially alleviate that. If we leave right now then that's the report we bring back.
Or make it worse.
To him, to us, to the expedition.
Time finding answers is time not getting to safety, and right now we are not safe.
And, again, trying to be friendly to Morghur and his allies is unlikely to be good for us.
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There is a way to help them, but before that we have to investigate, see if they are beyond help, what their status is, number of survivors, sane or insane, corrupted or noncorrupted, if they are holding out, if they are in danger of falling to the kurgans. But that requires investigation, currently our people are not in danger besides the chaos wasteland, and this expedition has always been dangerous, thats why we have the various group gathered, which is to accomplish this mission, if you wanted to avoid danger, you might as well not have started the expedition, not have tried to rescue Karag Vlag. Danger has always been part of the expediton, which is normal, and we have to assess Karag Dum, not bring inconclusive news to Belegar.
Please explain your plan to help them, and also include your plant to convince the two religious knightly orders, the dwarves who take propriety very seriously, and the wizards sworn to uphold the articles of magic, to not kill us for being a traitor.
 
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Its not *just* curiosity. Understanding what has happened here is incredibly important from a strategic perspective. A knee-jerk reaction if fine in general but we need to know what happened her so we can make proper reports. THat information will be essential to preparing any potential counter-measures and guiding stategic planing. For example if that *is* the "real" Morghor then that means that he is unlikely to reappear in the Old World and forces don't need to worry about him attacking their homefronts.
Why does it matter that much from a strategic point of view? Materially speaking Karak Dum is definitely not a part of the Karaz Ankor anymore and there's a lot of awfulness going on in the Chaos Wastes East of Zorn Uzkul. Also, the Dawi-Zarr may or may not have gotten a competitor for their market. Beyond that it's all pretty academic, with details being more likely to be an additional burden on the Book of Grudges than a lightening of it.

Even if we find out that this is the real Morghur there's no indication on wether he has some different but equivalent way of traveling like the Wood Elves do.
 
The difference between an Apparition and a Daemon is explicitly what Mathilde intends to use as a defence to not get executed.
Binding Daemons is a hard line to cross with the Articles of Magic, the do not use dark magic line.
Cor-Dum is way beyond that line.
Only beyond that line if he's still chaotic; if not, it's exactly like Apparition/Djinn/etc.

Line between demons and apparitions is mostly there for public consumption and to ward off chaos temptation, it's not a real thing. All's warp entities which people are working with, question's only who's holding the leash, so if Dawi are holding the leash it's apparition and all's well.
edit: well, okay, Chaos Demons are parts of respective gods as opposed to independent entities, which is kind of crucial, but Morghur's not that either way.
 
[x] THEORY: The burning of Dhar or purifying it by whatever process Karag Dum has makes the temperature higher, could potentially be the reason why the desert exist.
[x] THEORY: A pseudo-Herdstone - the dwarves managed to create or use their secret resoruces to reverse engineer it, which combined with Morghur, lets them control nomadic beastmen or even create their own beastmen from wildlife or livestock.
[x] THEORY: The Beastmen and Morghur are illusions and runic trickery, The only evidence is that Morghur is not acting like his/her normal self, for instance, he/she is nonhostile, did not radiate chaos and Dhar aura, Borek is not mutated despite, Morghur supposed possesses a chaotic aura that can easily mutate, people. Morghur did not act hostile and aggressive enouch, he/she looks sane, he/she did not attack Borek, did not mutate the ground with he/she area of effect aura.
[x] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum managed to, somehow based on the desert borders stabilize reality contradicting the nature of the chaos wastelands
[x] Morghur knows Borek enouch to be affectionate with him, although this might just be identification procedure, or just a security measure to determine the identity of whether or not the person is a dwarf of Karag Dum.
[x] THEORY: Morghur has been linked to Karag Dum's waystone, which is acting as a psudo-herdstone that is burning away Dhar instead of creating it. Morghur is possibly cleansed of Dhar, and sees dwarfs of Karag Dum as family. The waystone may have been the cause of the weird geography via Geomancy, and might be weaponized. Based on Boreks last words, this was a longstanding contingency plan held by the dwarfs of Karag Dum. He is ashamed because it's a desecration of one of the greatest relics of the Ancestor Gods, as well as binding the fate of Karag Dum to a Beastmen Demi-God.
[x] ACTION: Investigate by following the waystone ley line. It will be your guide through any possible illusion or trickery.
[x] ACTION: I'm going to have to check this out.
[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur does not not attack people, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[x] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[x] ACTION: We need to verify if the situation here is stable, or if it's something that will come back to haunt the Karaz Ankor and Empire if left ignored.
[x] Theory: The Dwarfs have control over Cor-Dum and is likely being controlled by Karak Dum's King or Leader, They are doing this to protect the Waystone and keep the Karak Ankor safe, there is an ongoing siege to take control of the waystone with a nearby source providing power to the desert to weaken the defenders.
[x] Action: Look for the source of the desert.
[x] THEORY: This could be a Rune-based Illusion with "Morghur" being a Runemaster. The Dawi of Karag Dum let the forces of Chaos assume that Dum has fallen and is surrounded by Beastmen forces so they don't all unite to attack the Hold together and instead only come in smaller groups to "test" themselves against another chaotic force.
[x] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum are alive and uncorrupted by Chaos, but have resorted to truly drastic measures to survive, probably undertaken by their controversial "Rune Masters", which involves having these beastmen or beastmen-appearing creatures defending the karak for the dwarves. We can assume that this is all in favour of the dwarves by Morghur's easy acceptance and non-destruction of Borek as well as Borek's mutual acceptance of the beastman. The idea of Rune Masters being critically involved is the certainty that some form of magic was used to create this whole situation, including the odd weather, and the Rune Masters' lack of corruption is supported by the lesser level of ambient dark magic in the area, even directly around Morghur himself.
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] ACTION: Attempt to contact the nearby Kurgan tribes for information.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
[x] ACTION: Gain more information.
[x] THEORY: Magical signs and, less reliably, intuition about Borek, point to there being something uncorrupted in that mountain in the middle.
[x] THEORY: Theory continued: Borek expected Morghur, Morghur favors Borek, Borek isn't chaos-aligned(he had the chance to prevent us from acting on Vlag, but he didn't, and was, in fact, happy about the result). Obvious conclusion, Morghur is aligned with Borek in some way apart from alignment to chaos.
[x] THEORY: When Karak Dum warned the others about Chaos, the other holds instead chose to freak out about the elven army that had just landed upon the shores of the old world. The elves were later revealed to have been chasing Cor-Dum. What if K-Dum tried to remove C-Dum so the elves would go away and the dwarves could send reinforcments up north. However, they bound the demigod to their waystone instead—possibly by accident, possibly on purpose, definitly with forbidden knowledge. They weren't able to prevent the great war in time, so they chose to double down and make Cor-Dum their protector.
 
We don't know how critical the flow of energy to Thorgrim is.
No, but we do know that it's both A) Extremely valuable energy to the extent that we got approached by elves wanting to collaborate with dwarves because it's that valuable.

&

B) Holding back the expansion of the chaos wastes by absorbing their energy.

We don't know how critical it is. But we do know that it's massively important.
 
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