Well, damn. I had to skip through and just read Boney's posts to get through all that.
Takes me back- I don't think the thread's moved this quick since around a year ago.
(Man, the vote function on the bottom is not helpful with this one)
Uh, I'm just going to vote for an action.
[X] ACTION: Turn back
At this point... there's no way this turns out to be something the Karaz Ankor wouldn't burn Karag Dum for. It doesn't really materially change anything. And staying any longer in the Chaos Wastes with it's man-eating childhood homes seems too risky.
We're already going to go through quite a bit of trouble getting that Goblet if Lil-whatever can find it.
[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[X] THEORY: The Dwarves have learned to tap the waystone to create something not unlike the Eonir, binding themselves to the land and reshaping the land and even space itself into forest. The desert is the dwarves stealing life from elsewhere to feed their forest. The Beastmen are super impressed by this pooling of raw Chaos and came to subscribe to their newsletter.
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
There are so many options that 'vote everything' seems to be done but on inspection show that only half were used.
And what is with the bottom? Is that a collection of all the common ones?
So after reading *part* of the discussion I agree with the line of thinking that this is an extreme contigency to keep the Karak fighting (because of his reaction and welcoming). I am as well sure that no one else can get close to the forest.
[X] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.
[X] THEORY: Things are not what they appear as at the first look. Nothing Mathilde knows allows for what they are witnessing to be the reality.
[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
[X] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
If they are binding the likes of Moghur they are servants of the Ruinous Powers, even if they are deluded enough to think otherwise. A grudge is a grudge no matter how they would rationalize it. The only thing we should have to do with dwarfs so far gone as to do so is kill them. Sadely we lack the resources to do so
I don't know about that. I mean, vampires can resurrect various chaos beasts that are unatural, and while they aren't in Morghuls level that implies it's possible to do so.
It could very well be that they are enemies of chaos who have mastered some twisted version of runecraft to bind him.
"Well, let's see if we can improve that," you say cheerily. "Might want to take a few steps back."
[Rite of Way: Learning, 87+28-10(Winds overhead)+15(Windsage)=120.]
You reach your hand upwards and with force of will you snag one of the overhead streams of Ulgu, causing it to break free of the overhead tapestry to swirl downwards towards the Alriksson and spiral around you. You feel giddy as you feel it engulf you, the thrumming energies throbbing in time with your heartbeat and flitting hither and thon in response to your slightest whim. With an effort of will you remind yourself of your purpose and channel the Wind through you and into your Staff, the altered dragonbone almost as permeable to Ulgu as your soul. Fog billows out from your staff and hands and mouth and eyes, pouring forward to embrace the terrain ahead.
The steam-wagons seem to surge as they hit the grey road you've made for them, and at the same time there's a yank on your soul as the spell demands much more energy to sustain its effects, so much more than they required on the Skull Road. But now more than ever before there is energy aplenty, fresh from the Aethyr and ready to shape the malleable world to your will, and you meet the demands with only a slight effort. Then a second yank as the Magnus reaches the road, then a third and a fourth and a fifth, and now the entire stream flows straight through you and out onto the turf below. If you attempted to hold this much energy it would tear you asunder in seconds, but you simply let it flow through you. The lever moves the world, but the fulcrum remains steady.
This is what it is to be a Wizard. The robes, the rituals, the titles, the books, they were just decoration. To be a Wizard is to face the tide of power that would kill the world, and to bend that power to its defence.
"Maybe more than slightly," you hear Borek mutter to himself behind you, and your smile widens.
I love this moment. That moment when Mathilde drops all the pretenses, drops her smug mystery and petty trappings of power, and just gets down to the business of breaking reality over her knee like a particularly dry twig. This... this is the power of a 9 Magic, 28 Learning Lady Magister. I haven't seen anything this quintessentially Wizardly since she nuked half a million greenskins in an instant.
I almost feel sorry for all the Journeymen Wizards who had to watch that and be scared shitless.
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
So, as I drew parallels in what's going on magic-wise between our Belt of the Unshackled Mountain, I think there's a case for Karag Dum now being this is the Unshackled Mountain itself. Thematically.
Originally, the unshackled Mountain was that which we freed from Castle Drakenhof and the Von Carsteins, as the destruction of the castle freed it from them. Now, however, we see that in doing what they've done, Karag Dum may have freed itself from the influence of Chaos in the same way.
More than that, the presence of Beastmen implies a heavy role in Ghur, the wind of the wild. Possibly now untainted by Dhar's poison. (Unshackled from it, you might say.) So, a freed and wild mountain. Unchained in a mystical sense as well as metaphorical one.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if those parallels are part of how the scenario came to mind.
Which feels extra appropriate Dum is both Chaos but also Doom, and "doom," at least in English, isn't a word for just endings, but also for fate. So I wonder if there might be a good Khazalid name for a mountain that broke its fate, broke Chaos against itself, and perhaps also broke oaths with it.
A true monster doesn't need a superweapon, for she can spread terror all on her lonesome.
It's not like Cython developed their own weapon... Nor did anyone on Mathilde date list bar Algard I think? And mind you, IIRC Algard was lower than even Qrech on that thing.
Look, I just like my love interests to have big superweapons. Don't kinkshame me. And how would you know Cython doesn't have superweapons? It's not like we had any intimate discussions about lewd topics like that.
No, we are rejecting the idea that a thing that is ostensibly a thing famous for constantly and unstoppably twisting reality like a pretzel isn't constantly and unstoppably twisting reality like a pretzel, therefore it isn't actually the thing famous for constantly and unstoppably twisting reality like a pretzel. It's a small*, but significant difference.
But your arguing that the reputational distortion is not on the scale that we only know *by* reputation. We haven't *seen* a Ancestoral Demon Beast before.
I would like to remind you that Panoramia has perforated so many living beings with thorns that she kinda forgot it'd look scary from the outside.
Mathilde is dating a terraforming human-shaped monstrosity of high pedigree that chews up greenskins with thorny vines, spreading madness among them and that had to be intimidated into following her orders to not join the fighting. Panoramia staying behind to do gardening in the Karak-8-Peaks is not for her nor Mathilde's sake, it is for the sake of all civilised people of the world who are safer outside of her vast shadow.
[X] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.
[X] THEORY: Omegahugger
[X] THEORY: I think I still owe Borek like 1800 gold.
[X] ACTION: I'm going to have to check this out.
[x] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
But your arguing that the reputational distortion is not on the scale that we only know *by* reputation. We haven't *seen* a Ancestoral Demon Beast before.
It's not happening at all, or else Borek would have turned into a Chaos Spawn or a statue on the spot and the ground around 'Morghur's' hooves would be doing something like frothing like white water - that's what Morghur does and it's a universally observed and appropriately well-documented phenomenon in-universe (unless BoneyM is retconning every encounter a non-Asrai has had with him, which is... unlikely, to say the least). If I show you what I claim is a functioning flashlight and it doesn't make any light when I press the 'on' button, you are well within your rights (and are probably correct) to say that it isn't a functioning flashlight - so the situation is, here.
[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur does not not attack people, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[x] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
[x] THEORY: There's some sort of strange illusion magic going on, and it's not visible even to extremely good mage sight. Out of all known sources of magic only Dawi Runes are capable of that - so the works of Dawi Runesmiths are still in use.
[x] ACTION: Demand the Runesmith in the Morghur Fursuit presents Borek so you can scream at him for not mentioning he was taking you to the Capital of Dwarven Illusion Craft. You would have brought more ink and paper.
[x] THEORY: This could be a Rune-based Illusion with "Morghur" being a Runemaster. The Dawi of Karag Dum let the forces of Chaos assume that Dum has fallen and is surrounded by Beastmen forces so they don't all unite to attack the Hold together and instead only come in smaller groups to "test" themselves against another chaotic force.
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
[x] ACTION: Gain more information.
[x] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[x] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum seems to be magically connected to somewhere else. Somewhere similar to Athel Loren?
[x] Theory - There are no Beastmen, only Dryads, Elgi and illusions
[x] Theory - There are no Beastmen, only Dryads and illusions.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
I find votes like "Gain more information" and "investigate further" to be a little insufficient. What does that mean?
[X] ACTION: Investigate by following the waystone ley line. It will be your guide through any possible illusion or trickery.
[X] ACTION: Wait for at least two days and see if Karag Dum sends out an emissary. Borek will report back, and perhaps someone inside will feel less ashamed than he does.
[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[X] THEORY: How and why does not matter. The expedition's responsibility is to bring word to Karag Dum of the state of Karaz Ankor if any yet live and to bring back any message, refugees, or other explanation from Karag Dum. Borek has fulfilled the first responsibility. We should attempt to to fulfill the second, even if just by observation and waiting a decent time for any messenger from Karag Dum to emerge.
[X] THEORY: Morghur wasn't "patting Borek on the head". It was some touching him in some sort of check to verify he was an authorized Karag Dum resident, and given their respective heights that's where its hand landed.
Anyway, this is stream of consciousness, confused, back from page 8017, having only read a very few posts from past 8017 and not pages at all, and half of it is Discord convo (where I copy-pasted the quotes too and stuff) and anyway. So. Sorry if you get upset about being quoted torroar. Hopefully I did this quoting and speculating and "Hmmm..."ing in an okay-enough fashion. As I'm not out to compare quests and go 'Well X is like this in' or 'Y is better!' but looking at and marveling at two different worlds and writing styles/approaches. And drawing inspiration and interest from both.
And also, very badly explaining or thinking about them probably (I overuse and overfocus on the word "choice" a lot, I felt, in the Discord. As while, yes, that's an element of it... Consequences and history and the-way-the-world-is matters...)
Anyway.
Now I'm going to go take a walk for an hour. See if things clear up or settle or whatever.
========================
Still like 50 pages behind, but having read a few glimpses here and there, and finally read what the Omegahugger theory is, and man am I surprised to voice myself thinking about "huh maybe there's a kernel of truth in that idea? " "nothing is born beyond redemption." Though I'm not sure if this is redemption or not per se. torroar has a more high fantasy (in the sense of 'good and evil exist and are forces' I think) take on WHF, but comparisons and contrasts between the two perspectives and takes on WHF from the two quests is fascinating. They're different. But they both can be very interesting. And, at times, when they talk about a similar or related topic, it can be cool to see an approach like that.
I'm just... going to mix my own babbling, with some stuff I said on Discord. I gotta say that I appreciate and like and am really interested by both torroar's and BoneyM's takes on Warhammer Fantasy. Not sure which one I prefer or agree with more or whatever, but... They're both very eye-opening and 'holy shit!' and compelling. They can't be directly compared to each other of course, because they're taking different approaches, and doing different things. Almost like slightly different genres sort of. But. You can mine useful insights or philosophies or interesting things from them.
When looking at this post of mine, keep in mind that it's 110% stream of consciousness, and parts of it are listed from a Discord conversation where I was explaining and talking to another person and going "wtf" and "holy shit" as of the latest Karag Dum reveals.
So it's not just retreading and circling a lot, but it's also not... very smart or coherent. Also possibly not maximally tactful maybe? But, I'll just that I try to be as respectful as possible. I'm interested in these things not as a way to pull a gotcha on some random person or a writer or questers, but because the topics are interesting. And it's not about comparing and going 'x is better in y thread!' but... appreciating and being interested in two different approaches and takes that two different authors take.
So. And when inevitably similar topics crop up, it's interesting to see how they're handled or what they might be like.
And also, fundamentally, the worlds depicted are a bit different (maybe fundamentally so in some sense). And that's okay. But that doesn't stop the philosophizing and theorizing and thinking from being fascinating and interesting.
Anyway, here we go.
Both torroar and BoneyM focus on the importance of human choice and willpower. But torroar presents a world more... well, a world where choice is sometimes taken from people. Though salvation or redemption might be possible. Or just defeating the evil for another day.
One of the most existentially horrifying things about Warhammer, about Chaos, is how insidious it can be. Through no fault of your own, you can, unwittingly and unwillingly, be corrupted by the Dark Gods. It's something hard to properly quantify, to understand in depth, compared to IRL issues. Yes, you can be forcibly addicted to things, conditioned to think certain ways, and obviously sometimes are 'unfairly' acted upon by the universe. A car crash hitting, a piece of machinery malfunctioning and injuring you, etc.
Chaos can occasionally just have you mutate out of nowhere, without warning, because a slice of the Green Moon's light hit you at the right angle on the right day at the right time. But only a little bit, small enough that you don't notice. Like, say, your toenails getting a bit discolored, and then it goes away, and you either never noticed in the first place or were just happy it went away. And then it turns out that it turned your veins into literal daemonic plant vines transplanted out of Nurgle's own garden that sprout out of your mouth and burst your capillaries while you're sitting down at dinner with your family.
On occasion, like with Logan, it can be burnt out early enough to save them. Other times, like the evil creatures that tore their way out of Natasha's womb and would have killed her and Logan if not for the priests and Jade Wizards on hand, it can't be, because they can be literally damned by birth. On malicious purpose by the Dark Gods, can people through no fault of their own be irreversibly corrupt and evil, which sucks, but that's just part of the setting. Basically, being transformed into an extension of evil, never getting the chance to possibly be anything different, which is terrifyingly dehumanizing both in thought process but also literally on purpose, because, again Dark Gods. For a lot of people, they quite simply had no choice, their mutations and Dark God-given (forced) instincts driving them to madness and murder.
And for all that, the Witch Hunters purposefully confront such things again and again until they inevitably go down one way or another. Cause Warhammer, yeah? Doesn't mean that it's great, or even nice, or most optimal possibly way to be/act, but then they are flawed. Perhaps worse because they, unlike a lot of unfortunate souls, they have a choice to do so. (But then you also have people who definitely chose Chaos, necromancy, etc. so they don't get any passes at all, yeah?) It is, barring a way to permanently cut out/off/otherwise remove the Dark Gods, warpstone, and the Green Moon from the setting, an unfortunate truth that there is no perfect detection/selection/salvation method which can save everyone mind, body, and soul. And innocents get caught in the crossfire. Sometimes there are mutants whose transformations are purely physical, and perhaps they might be pure of soul. But such things can only really be determined in the afterlife, and there are powerful entities capable of simply taking command of the bodies of said mutants because of said mutations, again ripping the chance for making a choice. Because it amuses the Dark Gods.
Either way, I'm not sure if I could ever properly call Witch Hunters forces for good, insomuch as being forces of anti-evil.
The above being a post about Witch Hunters. I included it because I 'liked' the example of the vines, in a "Oh wow what the fuck is this stupid unfair bullshit" sort of way.
The below, is actually just one post, but a long one. It talks about Skaven and Beastmen.
Well, for one thing, there's the Beastmen, the beastmen, and the beast men.
The foremost, the Beastmen, are literally described as the True Children of Chaos, in their army books, in their lore, by their very characters in books and video game and tabletop alike. Humans are born one way or the other, and can end up choosing. The Beastmen proper are, really if you think about it, almost sort of like twisted versions of the Lizardmen. Sure, they have ideas, goals, things like that, but at the end of the day they are inextricably linked with some higher power which basically determined their general course in life one way or the other (Old Ones vs. Chaos). The Fimir were a race that lived on the planet and started worshipping Chaos first, and they are jealous of humanity for taking the attentions of the Chaos Gods away from them. The Beastmen were spawned by Chaos and hate humanity for the same reasons and more.
The Chaos Gods got bored of them...because as a race, top to bottom, they were simply always going to serve them one way or another. Because they, quite simply, couldn't do otherwise.
Mutated people have a chance, certain spells and artifacts can remove their corruption, purify them. Most will never experience such things, and yet even then they have time. There's even a novel about it, about a guy undeniably mutated, who actively works against the Dark Gods and their servants, and the whole time he KNOWS that at some point down the road the voices of the Dark Gods will grow too loud for his mortal mind and soul to resist. But he has time before now and then to make them pay.
The Beastmen proper don't have that period of freedom, only the turnskins could boast such things. They are disgusting, horrible, violent, etc. because they were crudely created that way, and for that the blame falls on the Ruinous Powers. If, perhaps, you could block off the Polar Gates again, they might be free of that permanent influence. If you put them in a room that was blocked off with runes from the Ancestor Gods of the dwarfs and spellwork of the Slann to create a wholly deadened zone through which the Warp would be unable to affect, you might get some different versions of the Beastmen.
But the moment you let them out of that room, into a world touched from head to toe, corner to corner, by the Winds of Chaos?
They are lost.
The Ruinous Powers would immediately seize upon the idea of a Beastman that is not utterly enthralled by them, and would crush their existence into a new more 'pleasing' shape.
The Beastmen don't have those minor forms of humanization or complexity, of anything like that at all, because at the end of the day they AREN'T natural, the natural world is an affront to them and they to it. They quite simply aren't allowed to be that complex, because the Ruinous Powers are dicks like that, and that's the way they want it.
Still. Is it possible? Sure, almost anything is with the Warp reflecting all possibilities. But, grimdark, no one has the time, resources, or power to maintain such an experiment while there is just...so much else crushing down on them.
(There's more in this post, and it talks about Skaven, and how yeah maybe if you got the Breeders and detoxed them and raised the Skaven carefully and blocked off the Great Horned Rat... Yeah, it could work. But. Nobody has the ability or time or capacity for that, because "gestures at just... just everything." So even in torroar-world, redemption or salvation is possible, but... It's brutally hard.)
In both worlds, maybe people can manage to redeem another or whatever. But where damnation is often a choice and a history in one world, it's sometimes deeper in the other world. Both have them be brutally hard though.
But, still, it's interesting to note these sorts of... Well, these times when the quest GMs talk about similar sorts of things.
torroar draws on themes or aspects of fantasy and fiction, where good and evil exist and choice matters, but where also due to the way that the world can be shitty, things can happen to you or corrupt you beyond your choice or will.
BoneyM draws more focus on choices and decisions, and how the weight of history and culture could have pidgeon-holed races or nations into being like they are (though ultimately "nothing is born beyond redemption.")
torroar has a Warhammer Fantasy that is more... high fantasy. High fantasy in the sense of "there is good, and there is evil."
BoneyM has a Warhammer Fantasy that is more... hrm. Something like our world, but with good and evil and magic in it. Or, no, not quite but -- hm. The possibilities are broader in it? you can see how you can find places where they come together.
Torroar's world says that "Well since this is the Warhammer Fantasy setting... yeah, there is pure evil here. And some pure good, or mostly good."
(((This also leads me to suspect that, for example, magic and runes can be pretty bullshit in BoneyM's world. Because it plays into the themes and set-up of the setting he sees and wants to portray. Whereas with torroar... there's a more almost mythological bent to it. The heights can be pretty high, but they might be when Gods and Ancestor Gods come out and play. People can make huge differences in both worlds of course. But how they might make differences vary. And the settings they play in vary. But wow. Holy moly.)))
So, in torroar's world, Beastmen -- capital B, Beastmen, one word rather than two words -- are damned. They are the Children of Chaos.
But if, hypothetically, you somehow threw a big enough middle finger to the Chaos Gods themselves... Maybe you could make a room where Beastmen could be "safe" from them. Maybe.
Same for Skaven.
BoneyM says that... barring things like Daemons and the Chaos Gods, nothing is born utterly damned and corrupt.
So, even Skaven and Beastmen can be good.
But.
Due to how history and causality and reality works out...
You basically have a hostile or evil polity or race, in Skaven and Beastmen.
Corruption and Dhar are like evil nuclear radiation in BoneyM's world.
Corruption and Dhar are like... well. Like Melkor's essence, in torroar's world.
(((One poster, Karugus, in the Dynamic Alcoholism thread said a quote that made me think. "The whole point of the Warhammer setting is that evil isn't just a choice, it's a force as integral as gravity and electromagnetism, and how the setting is shaped from there." Choice and heroism still matters. Human endeavors still matter. But. Evil is a real force. 4 Melkors or Morgoths exist, and they freaking suck. Fortunately, the Valar and Maiar also exist. You're up in shit creek in this world, man. Fight hard.)))
Skaven and the Horned Rat are bound, and if you tried to tear even a minority of them away from it the Horned Rat is likely to do its damnedest to make you regret it...
Speaking of properly compartmentalized spoiler information, that reminds me, might you now reveal to us what was up with former Patriarch Hexensohn and his little misadventure at Drakenhof? Did he show up due to a very good reinforcement roll, or a very bad one? Did Patriarch Algard ever get any answers out of Matriarch Elspeth on the subject?
A very bad one. Not everyone believes the Van Hal family redemption story.
Then they decided to try to sort out some other business while they were in the neighbourhood, and whoops. The nature of that side business is still under the aegis of wheels in motion.
It was, in an indirect kind of way, inspired by him.
It took me a while to get myself to read Shepherd's Crown - it was the last Pratchett book, and I didn't want there to be none left. And while I enjoyed it, it was less than I hoped. A lot of people have criticized Shepherd's Crown and I can't really dismiss those criticisms, because the cracks are fairly clear to see for anyone familiar with how good things used to be. But one of the criticisms that I never liked was that the redemption arc for the Queen of the Elves 'came out of nowhere', though it took a while to figure out why. After ruminating on why for a while, I remembered that in one of his later letters, Tolkien expressed regret that he had painted the Orcs as irredeemable. Drawing that line made me recontextualize Shepherd's Crown and realize what it was, instead of what I wanted it to be. I wanted one last Terry In His Prime book, but it was never going to be that. What it was is Terry, through herculean effort, managing to communicate in depth his intentions for the setting, tell the last story he had in him as best he could, and put right all that needed putting right so he could rest peacefully and without regrets. The world will go on after Granny Weatherwax dies. The story goes on, even if its telling has ended. Men can be Witches, and Elves can be redeemed.
In torroar's world, sometimes you just can be corrupted or turned evil without any choice or say-so in the matter.
In BoneyM's world, choice and decisions are incredibly important and the consequences of people's actions decide so so much down the line even thousands of years later maybe.
((I mean, this bit about choice and consequence is true in both settings of course. Just... different expressions and stuff.))
That's why a temptation or corruption in BoneyM's setting would be something like... It wouldn't necessarily make you evil, especially if you knew enough about magic and the divine and dark magic to be sure that this wasn't one of the really-really-bad cases where "doing this, even once, fucks you over forever." But. It would incur a cost. Either on your psyche, on your sanity, on your honor, on your mind, on your body, on your soul... Or maybe even on your metaphysical purity, yes. But you could maybe keep going.
A really good demonstration of this, was when we learned the story of Frederick Van Hal, the first necromancer in Sylvania, who raised the dead to fight the giant Vermintide of Skaven. At a time of immense crisis for the Empire, when the Black Death had killed like... was it 1 in 4, or 9 in 10? people, and the Skaven invaded...
He was guided and helped by Vlad Von Carstein, carefully learning from a Book of Nagash and avoiding all the traps and corruptions of it, in becoming a necromancer.
And...
And unfortunately, dark magic, Dhar, is "like evil nuclear radiation." So. His sanity was slowly eroded over time, because even if he did not fuck up the spellcasting, the environmental and nearby presence of Dhar still took its tool and irradiated him.
So it's a journal about one man's struggle against slowly onsetting magical insanity and paranoia, and a war diary of his wars against the Skaven.
And at the end of it, Frederick Van Hal had gone around the bend enough that in just a few paragraphs or pages he convinces himself that the approaching Imperial forces are allied with the Skaven and everybody's traitors and etc etc.
But even then, that was a relatively "not totally fucked over" example. And even then, it ended sadly. And most people don't have the benefit of going into those sorts of situations with eyes open and having an idea of how far it can be pushed. Most people know little, and so even the first choice turns out to be really bad and have consequences forever down the line.
==============================
This bottom part of the post was drawn up when I was wtfing and wondering about "What is up with this Morghur here?"
---
Also relevantly though, was several posts or glimpses at people talking about "You know, this Morghur is acting weird as fuck" and wondering whether, while we might not be under an illusion, perhaps we simply don't understand what we are looking at.
I don't know if the "Perhaps this is a contingency" theory is the best one to advance. Then again, I don't know if openly stating the suspicion of "Perhaps they have a way of preventing even Beastmen or Morghur from being swayed by the Chaos Gods, if born in Karag Dum?" to the Expedition would be received well...
On the other hand, I don't want to give them a theory and say "We need more information" only for them to go "Oh fuck no, we are not doing this, we are turning right around and going back." Hence why I'm thinking about some of this 'This Morghur business and activity is weird as shit.' Because giving forth a theory that stresses the weirdness of Morghur's activity (rather than just "Okay, they bound a Beastmen demigod, this is heretical as fuck, let's leave") means people being less convinced that Karag Dum is... yeah.
I just don't fucking know what to make of things.
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Anyway, this is stream of consciousness, confused, back from page 8017, having only read a very few posts from past 8017 and not pages at all, and half of it is Discord convo (where I copy-pasted the quotes too and stuff) and anyway. So. Sorry if you get upset about being quoted torroar. Hopefully I did this quoting and speculating and "Hmmm..."ing in an okay-enough fashion. As I'm not out to compare quests and go 'Well X is like this in' or 'Y is better!' but looking at and marveling at two different worlds and writing styles/approaches. And drawing inspiration and interest from both.
And also, very badly explaining or thinking about them probably (I overuse and overfocus on the word "choice" a lot, I felt, in the Discord. As while, yes, that's an element of it... Consequences and history and the-way-the-world-is matters...)
Anyway.
Now I'm going to go take a walk for an hour. See if things clear up or settle or whatever.
68 pages in 15 hours. And more than likely it will be 69 before I finish typing.
Theory: The Dwarfs of Dum have not fallen to Chaos, but may be in the process of falling. They have certainly done something that the Karaz Ankor wouldn't approve of. While Borek might consider their actions bordering unforgivable the inhabitants may not be so fatalistic. It is entirely possible there are still Dwarfs in that mountain who can and would like to be saved.
On the more practical side I don't think the observable defences are sufficiently hostile that trying to get past them is suicidal. And I remain of the opinion that trying to get back over that cliff without being able to reinforce it first is an unacceptable risk.
We have to go in.
Oh boy the vote tally is a mess.
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has turned to forbidden arts, and Borek left in shame.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[X] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum are alive and uncorrupted by Chaos, but have resorted to truly drastic measures to survive, probably undertaken by their controversial "Rune Masters", which involves having these beastmen or beastmen-appearing creatures defending the karak for the dwarves. We can assume that this is all in favour of the dwarves by Morghur's easy acceptance and non-destruction of Borek as well as Borek's mutual acceptance of the beastman. The idea of Rune Masters being critically involved is the certainty that some form of magic was used to create this whole situation, including the odd weather, and the Rune Masters' lack of corruption is supported by the lesser level of ambient dark magic in the area, even directly around Morghur himself.
[X] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
[X] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[X] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[X] ACTION: Persuade the Expedition to stay put for a day while you sneak to the gates of the Karak and try to have a chat about it.
[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
[X] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[x] THEORY: I think I still owe Borek like 1800 gold.
It's not happening at all, or else Borek would have turned into a Chaos Spawn or a statue on the spot and the ground around 'Morghur's' hooves would be doing something like frothing like white water - that's what Morghur does and it's a universally observed and appropriately well-documented phenomenon in-universe (unless BoneyM is retconning every encounter a non-Asrai has had with him, which is... unlikely, to say the least). If I show you what I claim is a functioning flashlight and it doesn't make any light when I press the 'on' button, you are well within your rights (and are probably correct) to say that it isn't a functioning flashlight - so the situation is, here.
But even though Mathilde is a Master Swordswoman, she'd still be Mathilde even if you cut her limbs off. She wouldn't be a Master Swordswoman anymore, but that's not everything she is.
By the same token Morghur would still be Morghur even if the Dawi found a way to contain/control his realitywarping.
So... 40+ pages to catch up to. This is gonna take so long.
Unless...
*Uses tally tool*
Yup, I like those.
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Turn back
Alright, time for an effort post!
Boney is an excellent world-builder, as we can all agree. Thus, even if we don't know exactly what's going on, we can reasonably expect that whatever is happening is consistent with the facts we've gathered (up to illusions, etc). Thus, let's follow the maxim 'Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Facts (in no particular order):
1: Borek is significantly more ashamed of whatever happened here than he was of direct commercial dealings with Chaos Dwarves. Additionally, he was resigned, rather than surprised, upon seeing Morghur.
2: Karag Dum is no longer part of a mountain range, and is now at the bottom of a crater, surrounded by (temperate, not arboreal...) forests with a sudden demarcation to desert.
3: Karag Dum is exuding an environmentally massive amount of heat, described as a "hot, gritty wind that seems to be blowing directly into [Mathilde's] face."
4: There's a whole bunch of bones and banners sitting outside the area, and it's a known spot to challenge Morghur for the favor of the Dark Gods.
5: Morghur greeted Borek with an intimate gesture, and Borek let it happen.
6: "As you watch reality flinch away from him, Morghur the Shadowgave, immortal demigod of the Beastmen, bellows a warbling prayer to the mountain that has become his Herdstone, and from the trees countless more voices join him."
7: There's less Dhar here than in other areas of the waste.
Theories:
A: Karag Dum managed to trap/bind Morghur.
This theory is inconsistent with [5, 7]: Morghur is a chaotic evil Beastman demigod. He ain't caressing nobody, and he ain't reducing Dhar taint.
B: Karag Dum is impersonating Morghur with e.g. a Runesmith
The smallest issue is that this naively seems to contradict 6 & 1, to a greater or lesser degree: how and why would a Runesmith let out a prayer to a Herdstone? It's possible that this is just poetic license, but if it's not, then that's an issue. I'm also not convinced that tricking beastmen into playing defense is so much worse than trading with Chaos Dwarves.
A slightly larger issue is that this doesn't account for how Karag Dum has kept the beastmen from doing the usual 'mad offerings, chieftains scratching their name on it in Dark Tongue, etc' thing.
The largest issue, however, for me is that this theory is incomplete. It doesn't begin to explain 2, 3, or 4. This means there's a big missing piece (or several) to the puzzle, somewhere. 'Runelord Illusions' doesn't explain how or why the Dawi of Karag Dum built/maintained a temperate forest in the fucking chaos wastes, deleted a mountain range, and transported their mountain to the bottom of a weirdly even crater. It also doesn't explain (at all) why it would be throwing off so much heat.
C: [ELGI INTERFERENCE] + or - Impersonating or taming or raising Morghur
This is the one that makes the most sense to me. It doesn't directly contradict any of the facts that we've gathered, but it also begins to address why and how Karag Dum may have semi-transported itself to a different place. Magic + Runes also opens up a vast possibility space for how they might do things and allows the possibility (if this is Athel Loren) for these being e.g. dryads in an illusion. It also very conveniently fits the timeline Boney gave us for Morghur.
It's not happening at all, or else Borek would have turned into a Chaos Spawn or a statue on the spot and the ground around 'Morghur's' hooves would be doing something like frothing like white water - that's what Morghur does and it's a universally observed and appropriately well-documented phenomenon in-universe (unless BoneyM is retconning every encounter a non-Asrai has had with him, which is... unlikely, to say the least). If I show you what I claim is a functioning flashlight and it doesn't make any light when I press the 'on' button, you are well within your rights (and are probably correct) to say that it isn't a functioning flashlight - so the situation is, here.
And, again, this isn't first-hand information we're drawing on. Its *reputation.* Mathy hasnt witnessed someone being transformed into a Beastman. The distortion could behave in any number of ways in reality and concluding "Not strong enough, must be false" is unsubstantiated based off of what we've *seen*.
It's not happening at all, or else Borek would have turned into a Chaos Spawn or a statue on the spot and the ground around 'Morghur's' hooves would be frothing like white water - that's what Morghur does and it's a universally observed and appropriately well-documented phenomenon in-universe (unless BoneyM is retconning every encounter a non-Asrai has had with him, which is... unlikely, to say the least). If I show you what I claim is a functioning flashlight and it doesn't make any light when I press the 'on' button, you are well within your rights (and are probably correct) to say that it isn't a functioning flashlight - so the situation is, here.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss the idea of this being Morghur entirely.
It is actually twisting reality, as per text of the update. It just doesn't seem to be doing so in a Chaos-y way. So this is either Morghur that's been cleansed/suppressed of Chaos somehow, or something comparatively powerful and also attractive to Beastmen. Either way, it seems like it should be approached with extreme caution.
" "nothing is born beyond redemption." Though I'm not sure if this is redemption or not per se. torroar has a more high fantasy (in the sense of 'good and evil exist and are forces' I think) take on WHF, but comparisons and contrasts between the two perspectives and takes on WHF from the two quests is fascinating. They're different. But they both can be very interesting. And, at times, when they talk about a similar or related topic, it can be cool to see an approach like that.
