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On the other hand the colleges would have never been founded nor arguably Asavar Kul defeated without Teclis coming before Magnus and offering to teach in defiance of his own king.
Teclis didn't actually defy Finubar to found the Colleges of Magic. He just didn't tell anyone on Ulthuan it was happening until after it did, and persuaded the two people with him that he was right, which was probably helped by the fact he was their friend.
 
...You know, if it weren't for the Dwarven network being seperate from the elven one, the metaphor of saving Vlag by clogging a giant magical toilet might have even worked.
I think this depends on your reading of the situation at this point. Personally, given that the Eonir referred to both their own and the dwarven waystone systems the as "a piece of the network" rather than separate networks entirely I think it would, in fact, be valid to liken Mathilde to a plumber.

And what is a plumber if not one who crafts the flow of dark waters? :V

EDIT: Mathilde as she explains how she shut off the watermain leyline and reconnected it later to solve the blockage issue. "Well there's your problem."
 
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Well I'd argue strictly speaking the beastmen aren't solely a magical problem but even then clearing the forests like you suggest would provoke an all out attack by the beastmen which is going to need magical assistance if you don't want to get utterly smashed by magically empowered beastmen, you're also going to need magical assistance to deal with the dhar menhirs they make. You can't credibly claim that beastmen are solely a mundane problem that can be solved by political and economic will thats a big part of it but if you're completely magically null and you don't have any kind of ability to impact the winds or operate with runes like the dwarves I genuinely don't see how you could deal with the fall out of the beastmen.
Yes, it would provoke an attack, that's why it takes political will to stick an army there for and end result that's going to be a bunch of unimproved no infrastructure farmland. The empire fought beastmen before they had the colleges of magic around, magic is very useful for fighting them but is not in fact actually necessary.

Contrary to non magical solutions being "mitagation," in this case the MAGICAL solutions are largely mitagation. Magic might be able to deal with a herdstone but until you deal with that damn forest there is nothing stopping the beastmen from just building a new one.
 
[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Deathfang
[X] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
 
Yes, it would provoke an attack, that's why it takes political will to stick an army there for and end result that's going to be a bunch of unimproved no infrastructure farmland. The empire fought beastmen before they had the colleges of magic around, magic is very useful for fighting them but is not in fact actually necessary.

Contrary to non magical solutions being "mitagation," in this case the MAGICAL solutions are largely mitagation. Magic might be able to deal with a herdstone but until you deal with that damn forest there is nothing stopping the beastmen from just building a new one.

The problem is that with out magic you have permanent destruction of the landscape. Dhar doesn't just poison people it taints the very land and the beastmen herdes when creating those menhir make permanent 'pollution' even prior to the colleges you had the priestly orders of the religious cults that could make use of divine magic to try and clear that taint, if you didn't have that at all you'd be in deep trouble, even if you could successfully wipe out all of the beastmen with out magic users to do something about the Dhar you're just going to have another problem in the future as that dhar poisons the people and land.
 
The problem is that with out magic you have permanent destruction of the landscape. Dhar doesn't just poison people it taints the very land and the beastmen herdes when creating those menhir make permanent 'pollution' even prior to the colleges you had the priestly orders of the religious cults that could make use of divine magic to try and clear that taint, if you didn't have that at all you'd be in deep trouble, even if you could successfully wipe out all of the beastmen with out magic users to do something about the Dhar you're just going to have another problem in the future as that dhar poisons the people and land.
The mechanism by which tainted locations are cleansed isn't prayer, it's fire. There are explicit mechanics for making it go away with fire, and no equivalent prayers. The only spell that assists in geomantic cleansing is the Jade Spell to cure blights, which only works on natural sicknesses and a particular spell in the Lore of Nagash used by Nechrarch vampires.

If a Priest had to be Blessed in order to deal with places of evil the Empire would be annihilated, because the vast majority of them aren't.
 
Can we just take a moment to appreciate that 279 people have voted since the last update. As someone who has both played and GM-ed quests for years I have to say that is and impressive level of engagement.

Congratulations @BoneyM.:)
 
IIRC, the empire was in fact able to cut back the forests a lot. It's just that it then got hit by the Black Death, which killed half the population, and then after only a short recovery period, Mandred died and the Empire effectively stopped being a united polity for the next thousand years. It's only been around 150 years since it got reunited.

So, first a huge loss of manpower and then a long time of frequent civil wars (plus the occasional vampire war, or Waagh) taking focus away from holding back the forests, nevermind pushing further. They're only now getting back to the long work of domesticating the land again. We don't know how the other provinces are doing, but Stirland is actually doing pretty well.
It actually killed 3/4ths or 9/10ths, depending on source. (One source said it killed 9/10ths and crippled half of the remainder!)
 
The mechanism by which tainted locations are cleansed isn't prayer, it's fire. There are explicit mechanics for making it go away with fire, and no equivalent prayers. The only spell that assists in geomantic cleansing is the Jade Spell to cure blights, which only works on natural sicknesses and a particular spell in the Lore of Nagash used by Nechrarch vampires.

If a Priest had to be Blessed in order to deal with places of evil the Empire would be annihilated, because the vast majority of them aren't.

Fire doesn't clean dhar taint is just kills anything alive that could propagate it, it may infact help with minor amounts of taint by diluting it and spreading it over a larger area but if fire really could actually clean it up then Praag wouldn't be the mess it is since the chaos invasion and Sylvania also wouldn't be so bad.
 
It does take a lot of administrating to equal a WAGH destroying mountain of shadowy doom though ;)
Our Wagh destroying mountain of doom was pretty good. It was a problem that our magic, in specific, was well suited to deal with , and we had thus an outsized role in preventing it. But I would object to the characterization that having a high level magister on staff is reliably better than, say, having so much wealth you can hire tens of thousands of mercenaries on command and support your kingdom with hundreds of artillery tubes, when split across the sum of potential military solutions. Or definitely better than making friends with all the surrounding countries, so that the one being hit by a Waagh like this isn't you. And so on, even if we ignore that a merchant could hire wizards, or a diplomat befriend them, etc.
While this is true there is not escaping the fact that the major problems of the world are magical not mundane. The problem with forests is not just that they are full of beastmen, who can be killed by and army, it's that they are filled with Dhar, which will always make more beastmen. The solution is to shore up the Wasytone network. Same for say Sylvania, the issue is not so much that there are undead to fight, but that the land is so seeped in death they spontaneously generate, a problem for a priest (which is to say another sort of magician) to fix.Great generals can win victories, great organizers can found states, but magicians need to fix what magic has broken.
I really object to equating priests and magic in this scenario. Priests are not an inborn trait like magic is, and the specific question is... what could we do as a character if we didn't have the magic trait. Even if every person who used the winds left a kingdom, that wouldn't stop them from being able to have Morrites put the dead to rest, or Sigmarites to heal, etc. And you absolutely could solve Sylvania without magicians; when we did it, we used artillery and mundane armies to do the heavy lifting.
 
I really object to equating priests and magic in this scenario. Priests are not an inborn trait like magic is, and the specific question is... what could we do as a character if we didn't have the magic trait. Even if every person who used the winds left a kingdom, that wouldn't stop them from being able to have Morrites put the dead to rest, or Sigmarites to heal, etc. And you absolutely could solve Sylvania without magicians; when we did it, we used artillery and mundane armies to do the heavy lifting.

Priests are very much magic, same mutations different power source. Order Gods can't give someone witch-sight for instance, but you need it to cast 'miracles'.
 
I really object to equating priests and magic in this scenario. Priests are not an inborn trait like magic is, and the specific question is... what could we do as a character if we didn't have the magic trait. Even if every person who used the winds left a kingdom, that wouldn't stop them from being able to have Morrites put the dead to rest, or Sigmarites to heal, etc. And you absolutely could solve Sylvania without magicians; when we did it, we used artillery and mundane armies to do the heavy lifting.

Priests that can actually bring down divine magic are 100% magic users in the same way an arcane magic user is, any priest that's having a real effect pretty much has to have the same mutations that make a person a potential wizard. Now the priests would disagree, but Teclis and the colleges think otherwise and the only information we've had seems to agree with them, until we have evidence to the contrary it makes the most sense to continue with that understanding.

Sylvania is never going to be 'solved' with out magic users because the place is a dhar blasted hellscape that poisons every one that lives there. Removing the vampires from the area will make a big difference but it would still be like living in a toxic waste dump of epic proportions. Unless the waystone network is fixed up or patched to push the dhar out of Sylvania is always going to be a necromancer and dark magic users favoured landscape.
 
Fire doesn't clean dhar taint is just kills anything alive that could propagate it, it may infact help with minor amounts of taint by diluting it and spreading it over a larger area but if fire really could actually clean it up then Praag wouldn't be the mess it is since the chaos invasion and Sylvania also wouldn't be so bad.
I can't see how much more explicit it gets than having a nifty chart for its precise application. This isn't something I've invented, or that only works on small things; it can deal with taint all the way to the same corruption level as the Marcher Fortress.

Actually burning all that land for as long as you need to is the thing stopping people from cleansing cities or provinces.
 
When you return to the surface, you're forced to repeat your argument several more times before everyone reluctantly accepts it, but Snorri brought one of the crossbow bolts up with him and keeps showing it to people who think they'd be able to do better. The mood is mixed as the Expedition prepares to set off once more, as those who want to stay and try their hand are harangued by Borek into submission.

One thing I'm hoping to get from talking to Gotrek, Snorri, and Borek is why "the mood is mixed". I honestly thought that the Expedition would be leaving as happy and upbeat as dwarves are capable of being. They brought back Karak Vlag, they fought off Chaos, and basically the only ones to die were the Slayers who wanted to die as soon as possible anyway.

It seems like the dwarves were really bothered by not being welcomed by Karak Vlag, even if they intellectually understand what's going on. Maybe it's that part of dwarven psychology at work where everyone has to receive their due, and the Expedition feels like they're not getting their due? Or maybe that's uncharitable, and it's more the reality of being under constant siege by Chaos for ~200 years being shoved into their faces. Like, this is the optimist's case for Karag Dum, and it's possible we get to Dum and if there's surviving dwarves they'll all be like that?
 
No I do not. FOMO is no excuse for skipping out on necessary social prep to go poke hornet nests.

We have a responsibility here, and we need to get to know the rest of the expedition leadership and learn the baseline personalities of our subordinates before we reach the "too busy to socialize" phase. Boney has stated that doing so is important - it's not some invented justification for avoiding more sidequests.
Being in the area of Qrech's old Combe is a unique opportunity that will not come again.

But so is interacting with the Dwarf leadership shortly after we just dragged a lost Karak out of the aether, probably the greatest argument for Umgi Nonsense it is possible to have. So is seeing how the leadership of one half of our cavalry is holding up.

Basically, *big shrug* from me. All are good options.

EDIT: I guess I'd rather visit the Combe than do a clean sweep of Dwarf leadership (x3), and Gotrek is locked in hard, so I'll go:
[X] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[X] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
and see if one of the latter two boot Forkbeard out, although to be honest he's growing on me. I may have a weakness for Dwarf leadership's logistical chops.
 
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Though that level of uncertainty about how many actually died would seem realistic as "in setting" information. I totally believe that scholars in the Empire argue a lot over how many people died, with "slightly over half" being the low end and "nine-tenths" being the high end and everyone having a good argument for their estimates.
 
One thing I'm hoping to get from talking to Gotrek, Snorri, and Borek is why "the mood is mixed". I honestly thought that the Expedition would be leaving as happy and upbeat as dwarves are capable of being. They brought back Karak Vlag, they fought off Chaos, and basically the only ones to die were the Slayers who wanted to die as soon as possible anyway.

It seems like the dwarves were really bothered by not being welcomed by Karak Vlag, even if they intellectually understand what's going on. Maybe it's that part of dwarven psychology at work where everyone has to receive their due, and the Expedition feels like they're not getting their due? Or maybe that's uncharitable, and it's more the reality of being under constant siege by Chaos for ~200 years being shoved into their faces. Like, this is the optimist's case for Karag Dum, and it's possible we get to Dum and if there's surviving dwarves they'll all be like that?

"They're back! Except they think they're still in Hell and no you can't go talk to them, they'll kill you. Just leave them like that, we got places to be."

It's a win, but it sure doesn't feel like one.
 
Though that level of uncertainty about how many actually died would seem realistic as "in setting" information. I totally believe that scholars in the Empire argue a lot over how many people died, with "slightly over half" being the low end and "nine-tenths" being the high end and everyone having a good argument for their estimates.
That's not far from the span we have IRL for how many died to the black death, and that's both more recent, and we don't have with constant supernatural evil buggers.
 
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