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And in fact, after Dwarves stare at mountains for long enough, Dwarfholds do tend to spring up as if by magic

The similaries are uncanny

I had a rebuttal, but then I realized the obvious rebuttal to that, so I'm going to cut out the middleman and post both parts.

"She brought additional Dawi lives into this world!"

"Let me introduce to you the miracle known as Birth."

...............

Mathilde Weber's newest title: Technically, the most successful Midwife(or mother, up for deliberation) in Dawi history.
 
So if a Magister is legally considered nobility a Lord Magister is probably considered high nobility...

In this context, 'High Nobility' would probably be equivalent to the 'Hochadel' of the Holy Roman Empire, indicating descent from 'royal, princely or ducal houses, or the Imperial Counts'. The Empire's equivalent would be those related to a current or former Emperor or Elector Count.
 
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Accounts say that the Jutones didn't join the Empire under Sigmar and the Endals did, so the Endals should be one of Sigmar's Twelve Tribes and the Jutones shouldn't. But then they say Westerland didn't get a Runefang but Nordland did, and to make it more complicated Westerland has different stories saying it was inhabited by the Endals, the Jutones, or the Was Jutones. Did Jutonsryk fall apart in Sigmar's time? Was it conquered by Sigismund II in the 400s? Did it last into the 900s? Depends who you ask. So let's go with 'yes' with an asterisk.
Fair enough. The way I always figured to square it- if we're just going with Sigmar's Heirs, I haven't read the Sigmar novels or the 1st ed Marienburg book- is that Crow Feeder was Westerland's originally but ended up in Nordland's hands somehow, possibly those dynastic ties that leaves Gausser persona-non-grata in Marienburg.
 
I see talking to Ruprecht Wulfhart as important because of how impactful he will be on the expedition morale. The Ulricans nearly routed before the enemy even entered combat, and that's something expected more from peasant militia or newly trained conscripts rather than than proper knights. They're morale is probably down the tubes right now, and that could cause us all sorts of problems down the line if it isn't handled properly. Talking to Wulfhart gives us a window into how he's dealing with that, and whether it's likely to cause us any problems down the road. Compare that to the skaven, which does have potential value to the expedition, but I suspect the morale issues will be more relevant than potential skaven action so long as we move the convoy through quickly.
 
In this context, 'High Nobility' would probably be equivalent to the 'Hochadel' of the Holy Roman Empire, indicating descent from a 'royal, princely or ducal houses, or the Imperial Counts'. The Empire's equivalent would be those related to a current or former Emperor or Elector Count.
Ok, when I mentioned High Nobility I meant to make equivalence to the nobility titles that were considered as High Nobility during the Modern Age in Europe, ranging from Baron to Duke...
 
Reallllllllllly.

Well then, tell me: Is young Ruprecht here because he seeks glory in the name of Ulric? Or is it to help repay the dwarves for the help they gave his father? Perhaps he wants to prove himself to said father? Or alternatively he wants to separate himself from his fathers shadow and make his own name? Unless he has personal reasons to want to fight chaos?

Does he believe in the expedition to Dum, or does he think it's doomed to fail? And after his latest experience, has his orders failure tempered his expectations, or has Mathilde's unexpected success buoyed his hopes?

He was the lynchpin that stopped his knights from breaking. Is he feeling more confident now that he's proven himself, or is he shaken that things already came so close to the wire so early?

Well? What's your guess?
Based on our conversations when recruiting him, it's about 1 part "fuck Chaos" to 2 parts "Seeking glory".

He considers you for long enough that you're fairly sure he suspects where you're going with this. "Our first duty is the protection of our flock," he eventually says, "but we are lacking in challenges. Some are beginning to look outwards, wishing to seek new foes, lest our claws grow dull."

"I have something in mind that could serve very well, then. I've been looking north. Very north."

"Is the Great Enemy stirring?" he asks instantly.
"This is beginning to sound like something that songs will be sung about," he says with a grin. "And I'm of the opinion that there ought to be a verse or two in glory of Ulric in those songs. The Winter Wolves will ride with this Expedition."

He might be a little embarrassed that his subordinates didn't exactly cover themselves in glory, but since the enemy was crushed anyways and there were very few casualties (who didn't want to die in the first place) he'll probably be more focused on doing better next time than concerned or shaken. There's no doubt more insight to glean, but I don't really think Ruprecht is going to have pulled a complete 180 on the face/persona he's previously displayed - he's not Horstmann.

Still a guess, of course, but not exactly an unfounded one.
 
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Reallllllllllly.

Well then, tell me: Is young Ruprecht here because he seeks glory in the name of Ulric? Or is it to help repay the dwarves for the help they gave his father? Perhaps he wants to prove himself to said father? Or alternatively he wants to separate himself from his fathers shadow and make his own name? Unless he has personal reasons to want to fight chaos?

Does he believe in the expedition to Dum, or does he think it's doomed to fail? And after his latest experience, has his orders failure tempered his expectations, or has Mathilde's unexpected success buoyed his hopes?

He was the lynchpin that stopped his knights from breaking. Is he feeling more confident now that he's proven himself, or is he shaken that things already came so close to the wire so early?

Well? What's your guess?
This post does a great job of capturing why I feel such importance about talking to the expedition leadership. We don't know the levers that move them. Convincing people is very rarely a question of "let me prove that this thing is Good in an abstract way," it is about making them believe that the thing you want satisfies their values. You can see this in how Mathilde approached Asarnil to hire him for this expedition, which was only possible because we had a reasonable understanding of what his deal is and what motivates him.

If things go to hell more than they are already literally going to hell and we need to convince people to turn around, we need to understand the people we need to convince at a deeper level than "well, he's Ulrican and a knight."
 
I see talking to Ruprecht Wulfhart as important because of how impactful he will be on the expedition morale. The Ulricans nearly routed before the enemy even entered combat, and that's something expected more from peasant militia or newly trained conscripts rather than than proper knights. They're morale is probably down the tubes right now, and that could cause us all sorts of problems down the line if it isn't handled properly. Talking to Wulfhart gives us a window into how he's dealing with that, and whether it's likely to cause us any problems down the road. Compare that to the skaven, which does have potential value to the expedition, but I suspect the morale issues will be more relevant than potential skaven action so long as we move the convoy through quickly.
To be fair, we have already recovered a Dwarf Hold with minimal casualties... I think that the expedition´s morale, including the Wolves, is going to be quite high if not extremely high.
 
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This post does a great job of capturing why I feel such importance about talking to the expedition leadership. We don't know the levers that move them. Convincing people is very rarely a question of "let me prove that this thing is Good in an abstract way," it is about making them believe that the thing you want satisfies their values. You can see this in how Mathilde approached Asarnil to hire him for this expedition, which was only possible because we had a reasonable understanding of what his deal is and what motivates him.
Sorry, but we managed to recruit him because he had just finished his last contract and we rolled extremely well, understanding him was very, very, very secondary in that scenario.
 
Sorry, but we managed to recruit him because he had just finished his last contract and we rolled extremely well, understanding him was very, very, very secondary in that scenario.

Do not use dice rolls to argue against examination of events in the quest. Even from a completely OOC perspective, the difficulty or possibilities of a diceroll is determined by the circumstances.
 
If things go to hell more than they are already literally going to hell and we need to convince people to turn around, we need to understand the people we need to convince at a deeper level than "well, he's Ulrican and a knight."

Do we? Or can we assume competence by someone who has thus far shown it and been recommended by someone with a proven track record. Why shouldn't the default expectation be that if things become untenable he'll come that conclusion on his own or at the very least agree when the facts of the situation being such are presented to him?

Wasn't part of the reason we didn't vote for Mathilde to assume leadership over the knightly orders due to the arguments that they could handle themselves and our time was better spent elsewhere? Whereas now there seems to be a train of thought that things will trend towards failure if Mathilde doesn't poke her nose in.
 
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It might not be about convincing people to turn around though.

What if we have to convince people to continue on? What if we find ourselves agreeing with Borek, but several other expedition leaders don't agree with Borek and us?

I mean, we can't know that everybody will want to as far as possible and never want to turn around. We may come to a level where Mathilde is one of the people, or part of the faction, that wants to keep going or wants to try something risky... but other members don't. Or if another side-quest pops up, or something we really want to do, but most of the rest of the Expedition doesn't, and so we'd need to convince people of it if we wanted them to do it?

For example, what if it comes to wanting to decide between starting a guerilla war in Karag Dum, versus going home? Or temporarily settling down in Karag Dum, in order to help shore up their defenses? Or to proactively hunt down and slay an enemy champion or enemy general, in order to help alleviate the siege?

Or, less dramatically but far more simpler: what if it becomes a question of "Karag Dum is safe-ish, but could use some reinforcement. Who do we leave behind, and who do we take with us on the return trip?" And it thus becomes a question of how much understanding we have of everybody involved in the expedition; not just their leverages and wants in order to best convince them, but also their skills and willingness-ness and who is most useful where.

There's always power in knowing the people that you are literally journeying into the jaws of hell together with.

That power or reason or point is not solely "So we can convince them to turn around if need be!" It's also for any other reason or challenge that comes up during the expedition. Which can even be "So you can convince them to keep going. Or convince them to remain in Dum and help them out, while we go back and return with help."
 
Do we? Or can we assume competence by someone who has thus far shown it and been recommended by someone with a proven track record. Why shouldn't the default expectation be that if things become untenable he'll come that conclusion on his own or at the very least agree when the facts of the situation are presented to him?

Wasn't part of the reason we didn't vote for Mathilde to assume leadership over the knightly orders due to the arguments that they could handle themselves and our time was better spent elsewhere? Whereas now there seems to be the train of thought that things will trend towards failure if Mathilde doesn't poke her nose in.
We don't need to exercise tactical leadership over the knights the way we exercised tactical leadership over Asarnil, Deathfang, and the wizards in the last fight. That is very different from the question of whether or not we'll need to talk people into not throwing the expedition away if the situation at Dum is untenable.

I sure hope Ruprecht is a sensible fellow! But I don't think we can afford to assume it. After all, we're not assuming it for either Gotrek or Snorri: we have those secret weapons Gotri gave us in our back pocket to help with leverage on them, and we're meeting them this round. We're meeting Borek a second time, too, which should help as well. But we already have some concerning signs about Ruprecht:
"Hardly the stuff of songs," Ruprecht says.
Joerg is drawn to the more pragmatic ideas, and Ruprecht favours going all-in on wiping out the daemons.
Compared to Joerg, he's more glory-hungry. This is very worrisome in the context of our pre-existing concerns about what might happen at Karag Dum. Maybe he's completely unsalvageably brash, but given the way Boney writes complex characters, probably not: all I want is to find out stuff he cares about that we can use to motivate him other than glory, if it turns out we need to do something ingloriously practical.
 
Compared to Joerg, he's more glory-hungry. This is very worrisome in the context of our pre-existing concerns about what might happen at Karag Dum. Maybe he's completely unsalvageably brash, but given the way Boney writes complex characters, probably not: all I want is to find out stuff he cares about that we can use to motivate him other than glory, if it turns out we need to do something ingloriously practical.

He wants glory but he obviously understands when and how to seek it. When it was decided the slayers would be first in line he accepted it, when he was told he wasn't useful in Vlag he didn't throw a fit about it. I don't think if it turns out the to be the bar of "Well this place in the wastes was unsalvageable afterall, time to turn around" is one that we should be uncertain whether or not he'll be able to clear. Just seems incredibly condescending about the guy really. He has no cultural obsession blinding him to the obvious here like other potential actors afterall.
 
I sure hope Ruprecht is a sensible fellow! But I don't think we can afford to assume it. After all, we're not assuming it for either Gotrek or Snorri: we have those secret weapons Gotri gave us in our back pocket to help with leverage on them, and we're meeting them this round. We're meeting Borek a second time, too, which should help as well. But we already have some concerning signs about Ruprecht:
Not necessarily, I am pretty sure that most people are voting for seeking with Gotrek or Snorri simply because it is a great opportunity to make friends Worst Slayer and his Friend Snorri Nosebitter before they crossed the Despair Horizon Event, and it makes sense to speak with the leader of the Expedition that wants to recover a Karag after, almost accidentally, recover another Karag... Not because we assume that they may not be sensible fellows and they have ht potential to screw us over down the line.

Like in the first turn, maybe I´m wrong but I am pretty convinced that people voted by Arnasil and Deathfonf mostly for the cool factor. I think that using the social actions a chore to make "preventive damage control" is a waste and sucks the fun out of the game, we should not be this negative.
 
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[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[X] Preceptor Joerg von Zavstra
 
Let's be serious, no one who isn't a dwarf will vote for trying to hold land in the Chaos Wastes. Even the Dwarves would only vote for it because there's a Karag there, if the place was obviously destroyed they'd leave. Just going all the way to Dum coming back and killing everything that tries to stop us will be enough glory and daemons for everyone.

I'm far more worried about our more suspicious Wizards than I am about our knightly contingent.
 
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The frustrating thing to me about close votes like this is that we'll see the results, and so rarely does anyone ever say, "I guess I was wrong." on either side.

Part of the reason I'm so in favor of the exploration votes is that I didn't vote to go to Karak Vlag, and I now see I was wrong. I learned from my mistake and now when an exploration vote is dangled in front of me, I take it. If Ruprect wins as seems likely and I read the update and it seems like it was really informative about his character in a "expedition leading" way, I'll try to admit I was wrong there too. But if it doesn't end up seeming all that helpful, will people on the other side admit they were wrong?

I think "learning from past votes" is a valuable part of a quest, and I do try to do that.
 
Are we seriously going to do the whole song and dance about the competence and rationality of our colleagues again. Borek is on edge but he has a logic behind his decisions. Can we extend Ruprecht the same courtesy, or will we forever have to look over the shoulders of are nominal equals and leader to argue on whether they can be trusted to effectively lead, based on a few statements? Like if you want Ruprecht because you think it would be interesting I respect that, but can we give the others on the expedition some credit please.
 
*looks at leading votes and runner-ups*
*they're all votes I like*

Oh no, what do I vote for? I'll just go for whatever seems interesting.

[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[X] Asarnil the Dragonlord
[X] Ice Crone Ljiljana
[X] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[X] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
 
[x] Magister Michel Solmann
[x] Ice Crone Ljiljana
[x] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann
[x] Asarnil the Dragonlord
[x] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[x] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[x] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[x] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[x] Preceptor Joerg von Zavstra
 
Not necessarily, I am pretty sure that most people are voting for seeking with Gotrek or Snorri simply because it is a great opportunity to make friends Worst Slayer and his Friend Snorri Nosebitter before they crossed the Despair Horizon Event, and it makes sense to speak with the leader of the Expedition that wants to recover a Karag after, almost accidentally, recover another Karag... Not because we assume that they may not be sensible fellows and they have ht potential to screw us over down the line.

Like in the first turn, maybe I´m wrong but I am pretty convinced that people voted by Arnasil and Deathfonf mostly for the cool factor. I think that using the social actions a chore to make "preventive damage control" is a waste and sucks the fun out of the game, we should not be this negative.
Are we seriously going to do the whole song and dance about the competence and rationality of our colleagues again. Borek is on edge but he has a logic behind his decisions. Can we extend Ruprecht the same courtesy, or will we forever have to look over the shoulders of are nominal equals and leader to argue on whether they can be trusted to effectively lead, based on a few statements? Like if you want Ruprecht because you think it would be interesting I respect that, but can we give the others on the expedition some credit please.
If interacting with our fellow expedition-goers was purely for flavor and "see what interests you" and didn't give us anything of value to the expedition, Boney would not be making us trade off between "interact with other members of the expedition" and "go do other stuff," much like how we don't have to choose between our normal actions and our social actions in regular turns. On the K8P expedition, our interpersonal choices had payoffs for our ability to know and do relevant things later on, not just our "do stuff" actions.

That's not to say that every interpersonal interaction is of identical value, of course. There are better and worse options. It is my contention, though, that interacting with Expedition leadership is a high-value option because of the outsize influence these people's attitudes and competencies have on the expedition. So, no, I'm not arguing based just on coolness factor, I'm saying "I think it will be useful to talk to this person so we can understand their motivations, because we cannot expect people to just listen to our perspective because obviously it'll be sensible to them."
 
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