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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
I mean if they are not there is literally nothing we can do about it. We can't guard the whole mountain range. That said if Vlag had another way though the mountains some of them would even have evacuated that way when the Daemons first came. They did not, which is a pretty clear indicator such a path does not exist
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Yeah, my major concern was that if we hold the pass, and such a path existed, they could come around and assault us in the rear.
But as stated, since we doesn't seem to have any survivors coming out of those exits anyhow, we could ignore any such possibility.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
So...I imagine that whether or not there are any survivors will be determined by a dice roll by Boney before the next post. But if there ARE survivors...christ, Mathilde's rep with the Karaz Ankor will skyrocket. To play a vital role in reclaiming a long-lost Karak is an epic achievement. To singlehandedly find out the fate of a vanished hold, bring that hold back into reality, and potentially save the survivors that have been under siege directly from Chaos for two hundred years?

Goddamn.
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Oh, it will, for more reason than one. Consider that Coin is set at Protector for the expedition.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
So...I imagine that whether or not there are any survivors will be determined by a dice roll by Boney before the next post. But if there ARE survivors...christ, Mathilde's rep with the Karaz Ankor will skyrocket. To play a vital role in reclaiming a long-lost Karak is an epic achievement. To singlehandedly find out the fate of a vanished hold, bring that hold back into reality, and potentially save the survivors that have been under siege directly from Chaos for two hundred years?

Goddamn.

It'd also make King Belegar's rep increase substantially, given that his contributions to the expedition were the Winter Wolves...and Mathilde (plus some of her ducklings).
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Don't forget that this long-lost Karak isn't even the one we were aiming for. Literally it's a sidequest to our current goal. We could end up nabbing two entirely separate long-lost Karaks in the end.
 
[x] Fortify the Karak entrance with the steam-wagons.
[x] Fortify the Karak entrance, but keep the steam-wagons disengaged.
 
BoneyM said:
I think Asarnil's reputation is being inflated. These are daemons, of which those daemonettes were the very least. Asarnil and Deathfang will die if they try to fight any substantial force without backup.
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Sorry, Boney, that's kinda your own fault. Asarnil wrecked a large group of Vargheists on his own in assault on Drakenhof.

Those Vargheists are tabletop-wise a match for non-Greater Daemons.
 
DragonParadox said:
We are pretty explicitly fighting Slaanesh. Tzeench is cheering us along and eating popcorn.
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We hope: it could be a Chaos Undivided project*.
That said, I guess we just have to trust that Mathilde (who is the actual trained expert on the matter) will keep her anti-chaos training in mind.

Also, while warning Kislev seems like a good idea, I worry about what the Daemons could do during the time the round trip would take. Like dropping an ambush on us on our way back. I'm not too worried about the expedition itself considering Deathfang is there, but then again this has to involve a MAJOR daemonic force.

*It'd almost have to be in order to move that much mountain around now that I think about it, considering stone is an excellent insulator of magic
 
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For me, we should drop "leave it to Kislev" and "clog and move on" ideas. First one is morally ambiguous and might lead to fallout when we get back.
Second one is too risky. We leave the waystone unguarded and we would have to risk not returning in time to unclog it.
 
BoneyM said:
"If I interrupt that power supply," you continue, "it would cut short the effect. I believe that would result in Karak Vlag returning permanently to reality."

"You believe," Borek echoes. "The other possibility being that it is lost permanently?"
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Oh god, do we hope that that doesn't happen. Losing it permanently... oof.
BoneyM said:
"Once they're returned, any daemons within it would not have long before they begin to decay," Joerg says thoughtfully. "No storm of magic, and the Chaos Wastes are not currently waxing. And there's no population centers nearby for them to capture for sacrifices. Two days, three if Morrsleib is full."
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Two days. The daemons should last only two days...

... Also. Interesting. Why did Joerg know how long would it take, but not Mathilde? What kind of level of experience gets you that knowledge? Is it just the experience of fighting against Daemons, which Mathilde lacks?
BoneyM said:
"Even in the worst case scenario, we rob Chaos of a major avenue of attack," Snorri says.

"And any survivors are doomed to Chaos," Gotrek points out.

"They're already lost. I'm sure they'd rather their Hold be snatched back from the realm of daemons than it be lost with them."

"How long would it take to return?" Borek asks.
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Who said the third bit in here? Snorri again?
BoneyM said:
"Could Kislev not deal with it?" Borek asks. "Mathilde, you are able to move swiftly when necessary, are you not?"

"I am," you say.

"So we have her take a message west to warn Kislevite authorities, then goes to perform her magic, then catches up to us partway through the Zorn Uzkul. Is this a possibility?"
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Whew, I was just thinking this to myself and going "Wait, if Daemons attacking Kislev is a problem, could somebody from the Expedition warn them?" and here Borek goes with that same idea.
BoneyM said:
[ ] Fortify the road to Kislev to keep the Daemons isolated from population centers.
Joerg, Ruprecht, and Snorri are in favour of this idea.
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BoneyM said:
[ ] Send a warning west, clog the Waystone, and move on.
Joerg, Gotrek, and Borek are in favour of this idea.
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Okay, so, here's the problem as I see it with any "Clog the Waystone, and assume the Daemons can't find it."

What if they can find it?

Mathilde has said that she only knows where to find the Waystone because she got a glimpse of where the magic was coming from, right? But. The Forces of Chaos were the ones that initially swept this Karak away. What if they, too, had somebody with magesight observe where the energy was coming from? Or, in short, what if they'd know where to find the Waystone?

... Or, is that an unreasonable thing to worry about?

I mean, Mathilde is right that without a lead to go on, the Daemons wouldn't be able to find the waystone. The thing I worry about, is if they knew where the waystone roughly is.

But. My worry about that... What if I'm wrong to worry? Because, after all, if they knew where the waystone was since long long ago... then they probably would have secured it, right? Altered it, propped it up with Chaos stuff, and so on. Still kept it hidden and stuff, because it benefits them. But they probably would have done something with the waystone if they knew where it was already, right?

Which means that if/when we find the waystone, and we find that it's fine, then that should be a sign that Chaos never got to it.
BoneyM said:
[ ] Fortify the Karak entrance with the steam-wagons.
Ruprecht, Snorri, and Gotrek are in favour of this idea.
[ ] Fortify the Karak entrance, but keep the steam-wagons disengaged.
Joerg, Gotrek and Borek are in favour of this idea.
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Wait. How well would fortifying a Karak entrance go?

We were just told that you can't fortify and encircle a Karak, because the secret passages inside.

So, if we fortify at the entrance... We would be right there for them to throw all their forces against, right? They'd have an immediate target.

... And, furthermore, they would not be suffering from the "takes hours/days to get there" of dissipation. So they'd be able to engage with us at full strength.

Also, we would take losses here. We don't know how bad the losses would be. But we could lose a hell of a lot, possibly the whole expedition, possibly just enough that we can't continue on, possibly we only take lots of damage to our steam-wagons (or some of them) and we can't move them... so... Let's keep that in mind.

Though, we would be right there at the foot of Karak Vlag and able to enter it. Though, going into Vlag instead of Dum would probably annoy Borek some.
BoneyM said:
[ ] Harass the Daemons with cavalry to slow them down enough that they cannot reach population centers in time.
Joerg, Gotrek, and Borek are in favour of this idea.
[ ] Send a warning west, clog the Waystone, and move on.
Joerg, Gotrek, and Borek are in favour of this idea.
[ ] Other (write in)
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I don't... exactly like the thought of relinquishing so much control and awareness, of these last two choices.

(Also, in the cavalry harass idea, is the expedition itself moving on to Karag Dum? And not doing anything to fight these daemons?)

We have no idea how Karak Vlag turns out.

... We also could lose our entire cavalry screen, if things go bad. On the other hand, we wouldn't lose the whole expedition. On the other hand, maybe the daemons could succeed... ... Probably not.

Hrmph.


Which of these actions has the Expedition check out Vlag, after the Daemons are gone? Or enter Vlag?

Or, at minimum, which of these actions at least tells us "Yep, Vlag returned to the physical world rather than being lost in the aethyr"?
 
Tomcost said:
I thought that it would be Nurgle the happy one? Pappa Rot dislikes Pleasure Brat.

The same way the tryhard blood and skulls guy dislikes the overthinking magical dude.

Or do I have the rivalries mixed?
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They have more than just those. Slaanesh dislikes Khorne for not having any appreciation of artistry in slaughter, Khorne hates Slaanesh for being preoccupied with something other than bloodshed, Nurgle for killing through pestilence and poisons instead of claiming skulls with axes, and Tzeentch for both wasting time with overly convoluted schemes and being a puny wizard. Tzeentch and Nurgle hate each other for being directly opposing forces in the world, being endless change and stagnation respectively. Nurgle for his part only hates Tzeentch, so beyond competing for power and influence in the world, the rivalry with Khorne is entirely one-sided. Slaanesh is for the most part ambivalent about Nurgle and Tzeentch.
 
I vote for road fortifications because at the least we make it so whatever demon incursion we face get whittled down a bit by the distance they would have to travel (along with time spent figuring out where to go).

Also I am still fairly suspicious of the fact that fortifying the Karak entrance might open us up to surprise ambushes from hidden entrances that we don't know about. Lastly fortifying the entrance makes sure that we fight the daemons when they are as strong as they are possible to be.

[x] Fortify the road to Kislev to keep the Daemons isolated from population centers.

Edit: added because we have stupendpus harrassment capabilities

[X] Harass the Daemons with cavalry to slow them down enough that they cannot reach population centers in time.
 
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@BoneyM how difficult would it be to vacate one of those villages on a short amount of time?

I mean, we need them to put a couple days of distance between Vlag and them, and that would be it.

This way we can do what we wanted, that is waiting for the Daemons to vanish.

Also we have the Protector coin helping us there
 
[X] Fortify the road to Kislev to keep the Daemons isolated from population centers.

The knights and the dragon will have plenty of room to fight and withdraw if they need to. If something really bad crawls out it will have to make it down the road, perfectly lined up for the cannon and wizards, before it can get close enough to be a real threat, and if a cannon or a wizard explodes than it won't be a complete disaster.
 
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Spitballing, for any Kislev messages: Cast a shadowsteed for someone else to bring a message to them, if "Mathilde time" is a factor - also, could we make a one-use enchanted item of shadowsteed for the way back for them?

Alternatively, if we do deliver a message to Kislev, what about us going and casting shadowsteed so Ljiljana can come with - or at least have her give us a token of "this person is on the up-and-up" of some sort, or a message stating such.

Though, if we do bring warning to Kislev, I wonder if we can grab a few more wind-users or priest-casters with us? if so, Mathilde's shadowsteed would come in handy.
 
[X] Harass the Daemons with cavalry to slow them down enough that they cannot reach population centers in time.

Daemons are absolutely terrifying combatants, primarily limited by the fact that they gradually dissolve in reality. Our comparative advantage, then, is not to fight them directly, but to let reality do the brunt of the work and to minimize the losses while doing so.
 
If we fortify anywhere the daemons can flank us.

However, if we fortify the entrance we can take over the Watchtowers are reuse the existing outward facing fortifications around the entrance to help defend against that, as well as benefit from the face that we're in a choke point anyway. We won't have anything pre-existing like that on the road.

Daemons due to massed cannon fire as well as anything else.
 
Garlak said:
Who said the third bit in here? Snorri again?
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Yes.

Garlak said:
What if they can find it?
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In all but the 'clog and leave' scenario, the Expedition will be able to see and react to them beelining towards the Waystone. In the 'clog and leave' scenario, then things are no worse than if nothing had been done.

Garlak said:
Which of these actions has the Expedition check out Vlag, after the Daemons are gone? Or enter Vlag?

Or, at minimum, which of these actions at least tells us "Yep, Vlag returned to the physical world rather than being lost in the aethyr"?
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All but the last will check out Vlag after the daemons are gone, and Mathilde will check that it's back if 'clog and leave' wins out, only unclogging and returning to the Expedition after the daemons have left or dissipated.
 
[X] Fortify the road to Kislev to keep the Daemons isolated from population centers.
[] Send a warning west, clog the Waystone, and move on.
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There are already good arguments against just sending a warning, but I'd add that this involves Mathilde being entirely alone both ways in the journey, after disrupting a ritual and/or fouling a long-term plot involving Vlag. Which might mean directed action against her specifically.
 
@BoneyM

Are we sending someone to warn Kislev regardless of the option we pick? This strikes me as something we should do, even if the message gets a bit late, simply to give Kislev a chance to brace itself against any demonic hordes that slip past us. It should also help us avoid being blamed.
 
BoneyM said:
Already addressed in the update.
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That is not really I was asking about. It's more matter of tactical flexibility. Hypothetical situation: let's say we fortify main gate. Demons exit through unknown entrance, and then expedition is suddenly between hammer and hard place, with demons attacking both from Karak main gate and from behind. Being on receiving end of simultaneous attack from multiple angles is losing proposition. And demons not stupid. I was asking for whether can we cave main entrance if needed.

Likewise scouting I mentioned was not to find hidden entrances. Yes, that is likely impossible without months of efforts. I was thinking of possibility where we fortify main gate and demons will sally out to attack back of fortifications. Scouting was to detect that sally before they hit defensive possition.
 
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