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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Abhorsen said:
I voted the same way, and I'm basically scared of Thorek blowing up the Runesmiths guild.
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I'm with Alratan on that being inevitable if we're taking runesmiths from Azul at all.

Consider a few scenarios.

1) Karak Dum is standing but will have to evacuate.

In this scenario, there's no change from taking Thorek, an Azul runesmith or any other. Thorek will get the chance to interview the evacuees at some point and if the evidence is compelling to him. Boom the same thing happens.

2) Karak Dum is a ruin but there's evidence left behind about what happened.
in this scenario if the journeyman or Master Runesmith that accompanies us from Azul finds the information he's still going to tell Thorek, the same schism could still happen only this time the information is 2nd hand to Thorek which means the schism could be a lot more dangerous as instead of the rune lords taking the slayer oath if warranted perhaps they try and slander the junior rune smith to protect their reputation.

if the evidence exhonarates the runesmiths of the Karaz-ankor it would also be better for Thorek to be on hand to see it.

3) Karak Dum is a partial ruin, with hidden pockets of survivors in secret vaults or hideaways.

similar to the above.
I think the choice here if we think Thorek is likely to come if we ask isn't Azul runesmiths Vs Thorek but instead Thorek vs no runesmiths.

The information will leak out regardless as a journeyman of the other runesmithing clans not of Azul will still bring the information home if they find and if they have any honour they will demand something be done.
 
Briefvoice said:
[x] Plan Unconvention

To hell with this Thread Madness obsession with the Damsels; you have my vote.

EDIT: I will vote for any plan that does not attempt to recruit the Damsels. That is my sole priority, to stop that.

[X] PLAN: No Risking Runesmiths
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I would ask that you retract that comment calling it thread madness, it's offensive and unfair. You don't like it fine but don't imply that it's insanity to want to recruit the Damsels please.
 
picklepikkl said:
The auditors are extremely low-utility from Mathilde's perspective. I don't care about saving the EIC money, I care about using the EIC as a tool to make the world a better place. Wilhelmina cares about money; let her found an auditor's division if she is concerned about embezzling.
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Embezzlement is only one possible misuse of company funds. Bribery and graft both ingoing and outgoing, abuse of authority, personal corporate fiefdoms, plenty of ways for financial auditing to catch general misbehavior. We've instilled corporate values EIC that ensure that at the corporate and executive level it'll make decisions that make the world a better place. Now we need to ensure that that remains the case in middle management and on the ground, that is, that single bad actors don't sneak in and undo things by abusing their authority.

edit: Internal investigation division is good for following up observed failures. It's less useful if you don't catch any failures in the first place. Auditors are how you find things for the investigators to investigate.
 
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Abhorsen said:
I voted the same way, and I'm basically scared of Thorek blowing up the Runesmiths guild.
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I'm also afraid of just blowing up Thorek.
Let's not bring the second most talented, and therefore second most important, if not most important as the number one is not teaching apprentices, runelord into Chaos Wastes.
We want Thorek in Karaz Ankor, teaching every damn apprentice he can.
 
[x] Plan Unconvention

I'm tempted to make a Thorek variant, but the reminders of the fact Thorek could die out there and the level of loss that would be make me hesitant.
 
@Vebyast Any chance of adding the explicit use of our drake scales to the robe enchantment action? They're supposed to be top-tier reagents for defensive enchantment.

[x] Plan Unconvention
[X] PLAN: Chaos makes Taal feel peeved!
 
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Redshirt Army said:
@Vebyast Any chance of adding the explicit use of our drake scales to the robe enchantment action? They're supposed to be top-tier reagents for defensive enchantment.
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Good catch. Done:
Vebyast said:
-[X] Enchant an item with a Fiendishly Complex or easier spell: Robe with AA and AA mastery (with an aim to have physically indefatigable always on) (Use powerstone and drake scales) (Overwork)
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Okay, bedtime now. >_<
 
I think the question I raised above of what any runesmith we bring along can do in almost all scenarios that we can't achieve by giving Wolf an enchanted item that can produce images he can control and having him talk to Kragg or Thorek in Karak Eight Peaks?

People's hatred of Damsels is what seems irrational to me here. Making the expedition a more multi-national effort seems like it would have many benefits, including political and diplomatic ones, binding the nations of the Old World together and providing a good example to all the forces of Order. Not to mention them having their own unique capabilities. We want to be ready for anything in the Wastes, so having a greater diversity of potential solutions seems like a really good idea.
 
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Vebyast said:
Embezzlement is only one possible misuse of company funds. Bribery and graft both ingoing and outgoing, abuse of authority, personal corporate fiefdoms, plenty of ways for financial auditing to catch general misbehavior. We've instilled corporate values into the EIC that ensure that at the corporate and executive level it'll make the world a better place. Now we need to ensure that that remains the case in middle management and on the ground, that is, that single bad actors don't sneak in and undo things by abusing their authority.
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I see your point, but I maintain that this feels like a lot of "eat your vegetables so you can grow up big and strong" actions for the EIC instead of "using it directly to do the stuff we want to do." Incorporating the Gong Farmers and expanding the supply of high-quality gunpowder in the world by whatever resources the EIC can bring to bear on that is a good thing, and it ensures that that particular enterprise gets attention that Mathilde is unequipped to give it. We have not even collected our money from them since we left for K8P the first time, that's how little attention it gets.

Anyway, ultimately this is a small quibble. Your plan is basically fine; it follows the basic outline that the thread consensus developed for "what actions should we do," and while I don't like either the EIC or the DUCK actions enough to vote for your plan, I am not going to fight with all my heart to crush it if it reaches contention for the top spot, either.
Alratan said:
People's hatred of Damsels is what seems irrational to me here.
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I think people just don't think that we're very likely to succeed at recruiting them as compared to other options, and so see that as a wasted half-action. I also don't think that we're very likely to succeed, but I think the gamble is worth it. It's a subjective judgment call.
 
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So, i want fog path, i want no Thorek in chaos wastes, and i definitely do not want to vote for more EIC military.
[X] PLAN: Chaos makes Taal feel peeved!
Seems to have what i want.

edit-
We should set up somesort of auditing system for EIC, but it can wait a bit, rolling the niter factory into EIC and expanding production has immediately useful effects, not only for EIC, but also for Karaz Ankor and the Empire.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
I would ask that you retract that comment calling it thread madness, it's offensive and unfair. You don't like it fine but don't imply that it's insanity to want to recruit the Damsels please.
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The idea is to hare off to some land that Mathilde has never been, to contact some magic-users that she has barely had any interaction with, whose capabilities she knows very little about, whose culture she knows very little about, to go on an expedition they have have no connection with, to aid a people they have no alliance with, to at best rescue maybe a few hundred people from Chaos but more likely to just check that they're dead.

This seems to me to be on the same order as all that discussion about breakfast sandwiches and time-traveling grad students, except you're trying to bring it into the thread.

Yes BoneyM has approved it as "a thing Mathilde can try to do", but that guarantees neither its success nor its wisdom. I sincerely see this as the thread having talked itself into something that makes no sense in-character or in-world.
 
Valmond said:
edit-
We should set up somesort of auditing system for EIC, but it can wait a bit, rolling the niter factory into EIC and expanding production has immediately useful effects, not only for EIC, but also for Karaz Ankor and the Empire.
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Pretty sure we already did, didn't we?


Briefvoice said:
The idea is to hare off to some land that Mathilde has never been, to contact some magic-users that she has barely had any interaction with, whose capabilities she knows very little about, whose culture she knows very little about, to go on an expedition they have have no connection with, to aid a people they have no alliance with, to at best rescue maybe a few hundred people from Chaos but more likely to just check that they're dead.

This seems to me to be on the same order as all that discussion about breakfast sandwiches and time-traveling grad students, except you're trying to bring it into the thread.

Yes BoneyM has approved it as "a thing Mathilde can try to do", but that guarantees neither its success nor its wisdom. I sincerely see this as the thread having talked itself into something that makes no sense in-character or in-world.
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That's nice.

There's a few small holes in your reasoning. Firstly Damsels have the reputation of being the most powerful magic users in the old world. That isn't me hyping them, that's explicit. The Damsels of the Lady of the Lake have that as their reputation amongst the learned. Mathilde has had some small contact with Damsels in Altdorf through her lectures and whilst that's a tenuous connection I agree, you're ignoring the existence of Sozoic. Most of Mathildes interactions with people are entirely off screen, I do not believe that Mathilde will have had no interactions her through her connection via Hubert.

Depending on the turn order, we'll have scouted a large chunk of the land we're going to. Questing knights are sent visions by the lady of the lake for lesser deeds than potentially saving thousands. Karak Dum if it still stands could have thousands of people to rescue, not the hundreds you're stating.

Regardless it's rude as heck to imply that any one voting for recruiting the damsels is insane for doing so and your doubling down shows you're actually not at all concerned with and indeed intend to be rude. Not cool.
 
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picklepikkl said:
I see your point, but I maintain that this feels like a lot of "eat your vegetables so you can grow up big and strong" actions for the EIC instead of "using it directly to do the stuff we want to do." Incorporating the Gong Farmers and expanding the supply of high-quality gunpowder in the world by whatever resources the EIC can bring to bear on that is a good thing, and it ensures that that particular enterprise gets attention that Mathilde is unequipped to give it. We have not even collected our money from them since we left for K8P the first time, that's how little attention it gets.
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I agree, but I also think that we need these vegetables before we start acquiring existing companies and attempting to assimilate them. Like I said, the single most likely way for the EIC's cultural values to start to degrade is if they come under attack from the inside because it acquired an existing cultural bloc and failed to break it down properly. Blocs like that can really screw with HR and IA visibility; think Thin Blue Line. Financial auditing, though, no getting around that. If Stirland or the Empire had an immediately upcoming war I think that I'd have a different opinion, but I also think that the Marienburg situation is at this point basically under control and the EIC taking over the gunpowder factory wouldn't contribute fast enough for it to matter anyway - IIRC the timetable for the canal finishing is 2-3 years now? Taking Asarnil away from them was a major power move.
 
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Alratan said:
There are probably significantly more Damsels than there are Collegiate wizards, so I would't expect them all to be any busier than all wizards are.
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How are you justifying that hypothesis when the recruiting pool is chopped in half, and unlike Empire Wizards, Damsels are flat out incapable of having children, making the total amount of candidates even smaller? And all that's not even taking into account the fact that Bretonnia is further away from the polar gates than the Empire, and would thus have even less exposure to the Winds, meaning it would have even less children with magical talent on average.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Pretty sure we already did, didn't we?
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Did we?
I was answering to a conversation that started from
Vebyast said:
[X] EIC: Found an auditors division, to make sure the ledgers are in order.

Unconventional position number three: Navy and Gong Farming are both low-utility.

Gong Farming in particular is a bigger risk than I think people realize; integrating a largish guild and a bunch of workers from a totally unrelated field is by far the most likely way for the values we instilled in the company to begin to fail. I've seen it happen at more than one company.

Navy is of strictly short-term utility - Marienburg collapsing or the canal finishing will both make it a moot point.

Of the options that I think are actively good, hardening the EIC against insider risk is at the top of my list. Company-wide cultural values won't help at all if a single bad actor goes unnoticed for too long.
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So, if there is an auditors division already, or something similar, then that's fine.
I'm sure we have audited EIC at somepoint, just not sure how constant that is, so any links to stuff like that would be appreciated.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
How are you justifying that hypothesis when the recruiting pool is chopped in half, and unlike Empire Wizards, Damsels are flat out incapable of having children, making the total amount of candidates even smaller? And all that's not even taking into account the fact that Bretonnia is further away from the polar gates than the Empire, and would thus have even less exposure to the Winds, meaning it would have even less children with magical talent on average.
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Very few of the wizards are caught in the empire, consider all the spell casting priests in the empire, each one of them would be a potential damsel in Bretonnia. There's probably more damsels than there are battle wizards of the colleges, i'm not so sure about more damsels than wizards as a whole though.
 
Alratan said:
You've not explained the scenario that can happen in. If the Karak has been overrun, the runesmith won't be able to get to those runic seals and traps, and won't be willing to tell Mathilde anything useful because of the extreme secrecy requirements. Any runic artifacts or records can be hauled home and analysed by runesmiths there, just as well as they can back in base camp. Remember, Wolf can see through our eyes. He can talk to Kragg the Grimm to describe what we're seeing in real time. If we give him the right enchanted item he could produce illusionary copies that Kragg can examine. What can any runesmith we bring along do better than that?

There's very unlikely to be so many recovered artifacts post-looting that they won't fit.
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This is just manipulating the use cases by narrowing them to get the conclusion you favor.
The scenarios are:
-Karag Dum still stands and is unmolested(unlikely as it is) - Runesmiths are not especially useful and would speed any shit flinging. That said, any such shit will be flung anyways.

-Karag Dum still stands and is being raided - Runesmiths are not especially useful and would speed any shit flinging. That said, any such shit will be flung anyways.

-Karag Dum is under siege - Runesmiths may be useful for opening secret passages secured by runecraft.

-Karag Dum has partly fallen and the invaders are in the halls laying siege to the survivors - Only Rangers and Wizards are likely to make it through. Runesmiths, barring some eccentric mountaineering Runesmith from Azul, would not be especially useful.

-Karag Dum has partly fallen and the invaders have wandered off - Runesmiths would be necessary to access whatever places they sealed the survivors into, because most hiding places not secured by runecraft would have been breached.

-Karag Dum has completely fallen and all the invaders decided living in a Karag is pretty grand - Only Rangers and Wizards are likely to make it through. Runesmiths, barring some eccentric mountaineering Runesmith from Azul, would not be especially useful.

-Karag Dum has completely fallen and most of the invaders have wandered off - Runesmiths would be of critical importance in getting access to and extracting the actually important stuff from the Karag.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Pretty sure we already did, didn't we?
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We have taken "Found an internal investigation division, to investigate possible misconduct." Vebyast's plan founds an auditor division, which is similar but distinct, so I do not blame people at all for confusing the two, especially since we did the first thing, uh, nearly a year ago IRL (we voted to do it in November 2019, but then there was a Waaagh and we didn't get the results until late January, which is still over half a year ago).
BoneyM said:
The EIC a straightforward matter, as there is already a strong streak of patriotism within the company, giving you a good pool of candidates to draw from. They are to focus on actual misconduct that might threaten the Empire or the EIC's relationship with it rather than mere accounting irregularities, so you don't foresee any major conflicts of loyalty. Anyone misbehaving seriously enough to attract the attention of the newly-formed division would be betraying their friends in the company as much as they were the company itself, after all. And the first few examples will serve to make it clear to everyone else that the consequences will be severe and unavoidable.
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Tagging @Valmond since they had a question about it.
 
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picklepikkl said:
We have taken "Found an internal investigation division, to investigate possible misconduct." Vebyast's plan founds an auditor division, which is similar but distinct, so I do not blame people at all for confusing the two, especially since we did the first thing, uh, nearly a year ago IRL (we voted to do it in November 2019, but then there was a Waaagh and we didn't get the results until late January, which is still over half a year ago).

Tagging @Valmond since he had a question about it.
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Though for what its worth, auditors can also detect more subtle forms of unintentional harm, since one of the ways to detect misbehavior is following the money trail.

Its just not like, super high priority, compared to the very unsubtle pirates and bandits getting a money and equipment line from the richest city state in the area compared to what normal pirates use - some looted arms and mostly repurposed axes and knives.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
I would ask that you retract that comment calling it thread madness, it's offensive and unfair. You don't like it fine but don't imply that it's insanity to want to recruit the Damsels please.
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SuperSonicSound said:
Regardless it's rude as heck to imply that any one voting for recruiting the damsels is insane for doing so and your doubling down shows you're actually not at all concerned with and indeed intend to be rude. Not cool.
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Please don't do the thing where you interpret the words of others in the worst possible light to paint them as aggressors and accusers. 'Thread Madness' is a commonly-used phrase in this thread and you know it's not an accusation of insanity. Someone disagreeing with your accusations is not 'doubling down'. Chill or step away.
 
picklepikkl said:
We have taken "Found an internal investigation division, to investigate possible misconduct." Vebyast's plan founds an auditor division, which is similar but distinct, so I do not blame people at all for confusing the two, especially since we did the first thing, uh, nearly a year ago IRL (we voted to do it in November 2019, but then there was a Waaagh and we didn't get the results until late January, which is still over half a year ago).

Tagging @Valmond since they had a question about it.
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Well, sounds like there's need for auditors division to me.
But, not something we need to prioritize necessarily, the factory is more important, as is getting the information network setup and securing communications.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Very few of the wizards are caught in the empire, consider all the spell casting priests in the empire, each one of them would be a potential damsel in Bretonnia. There's probably more damsels than there are battle wizards of the colleges, i'm not so sure about more damsels than wizards as a whole though.
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Even if we were to assume a perfectly even split in sex, only half of them might become Damsels. And besides, Bretonnia is smaller than the Empire to begin with.

And all of this is without even taking into account that the Damsels have historically been in Bretonnia their entire lives. I can't recall a time when a Damsel ventured outside of Bretonnia at all, let alone go to a place like the Chaos Wastes.
 
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