Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

There honestly is no rush. Give Naraiel time to win over her own people, let the stories from Athel Loren and their own civil instabilities really weigh on them. Give Stephan time to consider. We can use this time to bring in Ortrud and Big Mag, and check if this might invite issues with the Dawi.
 
spudman said:
Naraiel doesn't know Emperor Magnus, so she's wary of involving him. But we don't need to involve him. This is three elector counts meeting the Asrai of Laurelorn for their own provincial affairs. That's the truth and no need to hide it. We do it at the Trident meeting, it's out in the open and done. And look, the Trident hasn't seceded from the Empire or whatever certain parties might be whispering.

If we do this quietly, but it gets found out sooner or later anyway. Then people are likely to wonder, 'why were they trying to hide this?'
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If we do this quietly we can build up relations inside the Empire, so the blowback isn't nearly as bad, and Magnus the Pious can give better advice on how this agreement can be handled at the upcoming Electors Meet (as there would be more diplomatic acquaintances inside the empire for the Trident to work with if Ostland has been trying to improve things diplomatically inside the empire). The players got 4 turns to work with on trying to get any preparations for the Laurelorn Deal done before the Electors Meet. Stirland has been worked on improving the relationship with, Reikland can be worked on improving Ostland's relationship with. Averland, might be best to leave it alone as they got the Whaagh threat to worry about.

Bringing Nariel to the Trident Meeting is not guaranteed to lead to the political opponents of the Trident deciding how the rumor mills treat this. However it would be likely as the Trident Meetings are not a secret. The one thing we don't need is someone spreading the rumor that the Trident is making deals with the wood elves, potentially becoming puppets of the wood elves of Laurelorn or whatever slander the Trident's political opponents would use while multiple threats to the empire are approaching. We know about the dark elves inside the sea of claws, we know about the beastmen threat growing, we know about the ever-present Great Whaaagh! threat, vampires are doing something that involved a lot of paper from Wulfenburg.

Add the wood elves of Laurelorn seeking an alliance with the Trident, and there could be potential for distracting emperor Magnus from whatever he is doing now. Distracting Emperor Magnus could be a bad thing.
 
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Marlin said:
If we do this quietly we can build up relations inside the Empire, so the blowback isn't nearly as bad, and Magnus the Pious can give better advice on how this agreement can be handled at the upcoming Electors Meet (as there would be more diplomatic acquaintances inside the empire for the Trident to work with if Ostland has been trying to improve things diplomatically inside the empire). The players got 4 turns to work with on trying to get any preparations for the Laurelorn Deal done before the Electors Meet. Stirland has been worked on improving the relationship with, Reikland can be worked on improving Ostland's relationship with. Averland, might be best to leave it alone as they got the Whaagh threat to worry about.

Bringing Nariel to the Trident Meeting is not guaranteed to lead to the political opponents of the Trident deciding how the rumor mills treat this. However it would be likely as the Trident Meetings are not a secret. The one thing we don't need is someone spreading the rumor that the Trident is making deals with the wood elves, potentially becoming puppets of the wood elves of Laurelorn or whatever slander the Trident's political opponents would use while multiple threats to the empire are approaching. We know about the dark elves inside the sea of claws, we know about the beastmen threat growing, we know about the ever-present Great Whaaagh! threat.

Add the wood elves of Laurelorn seeking an alliance with the Trident, and there could be potential for distracting emperor Magnus from whatever he is doing now. Distracting Emperor Magnus could be a bad thing.
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Bringing it up at the Electors Meet at all without Naraiel's approval is a breach of trust. We may be able to convince her to meet Magnus during that time (before or after the Meet), but we shouldn't expect more than that.
 
spudman said:
Bringing it up at the Electors Meet at all without Naraiel's approval is a breach of trust. We may be able to convince her to meet Magnus during that time (before or after the Meet), but we shouldn't expect more than that.
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As has been noted already, "Not like Freddy would announce the Laurelorn Deal at the Electors Meet in front of all the Counts. Going to Magnus for some help on the deal in private to avoid political backlash from this deal between Nordland and Ostland would be helpful." The slow path should also make this problem null and void, as it's four years. In those four years Nariel should be told about Ostland and Nordland wanting emperor Magnus's input. That or the trust Nariel has for Freddy and Stephan would mean she'd accept that Stephan and Freddy want Magnus's input on the Laurelorn Deal.

Jumping straight into "Laurelorn is making deals with the Trident" without any warning or support system in place, leaves the rumor mill open to our political opponents to mold and control.
 
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[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
Marlin said:
As has been noted already, "Not like Freddy would announce the Laurelorn Deal at the Electors Meet in front of all the Counts. Going to Magnus for some help on the deal in private to avoid political backlash from this deal between Nordland and Ostland would be helpful." The slow path should also make this problem null and void, as it's four years. In those four years Nariel should be told about Ostland and Nordland wanting emperor Magnus's input.

Jumping straight into "Laurelorn is making deals with the Trident" without any warning or support system in place, leaves the rumor mill open to our political opponents to mold and control.
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I mean bringing it to even Magnus without Naraiel agreeing would be a breach of trust. Torroar even quoted a part of the last update to emphasize that she's reluctant that this be spread before it's finalized. Even to him. She'd have to agree to meet him first. That's before we tell him a damn thing.

But that's all moot if we just get the deal done at the Trident Meeting. We don't have to worry about slowly building approval and things leaking before it's ready because it will be done. People can harp all they want, but the results of better trade relations and non-aggressive neighbors will speak for themselves.
 
spudman said:
I mean bringing it to even Magnus without Naraiel agreeing would be a breach of trust. Torroar even quoted a part of the last update to emphasize that she's reluctant that this be spread before it's finalized. Even to him. She'd have to agree to meet him first. That's before we tell him a damn thing.

But that's all moot if we just get the deal done at the Trident Meeting. We don't have to worry about slowly building approval and things leaking before it's ready because it will be done. People can harp all they want, but the results of better trade relations and non-aggressive neighbors will speak for themselves.
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Nariel and you are giving conflicting messages.
torroar said:
Silence follows in her wake until Naraiel speaks up again.

"It would make things faster," she muses before shaking her head. "But the diplomatic consequences could be a bit more…interesting than I suspect would be preferable."
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Nariel is aware that the diplomatic consequences of going could be "more interesting than preferable".

And torroar said it may be possible to get Magnus's input on the Laurelorn Deal. Not that it cannot be done.
torroar said:
"What if it goes wrong? If we get some sort of new treaty or at least bare agreement going, only for it to fall apart later, some new asshole gets it in his head to disregard it? Or tricked by vampires or daemons or something?"

"Then I am sure Kyrian will tell me that he told me so as he buries my corpse beneath the roots of the trees," Naraiel responds with grave poise. "But until that day, I choose, just this once, to make a leap of faith. After witnessing Isha's own favor upon our world, so close, how can I not?"

After that, she lets you stew in silence over her words for a good long while. Your mind grapples with the revelations and implications that they have left you with.

"Are we talking about some kind of treaty, here? Between the Empire and Laurelorn?"

"I know you and Stephan. It is you two I feel I can – Isha forgive me – trust," she makes a cutting motion with one hand. "I do not know your Emperor, or the other Electors. Marienburg has none, and those of the west have often coveted our woods."

Well, Marienburg covets just about anything in the world that it doesn't have.

"Magnus the Pious is the best Emperor we've had since Sigmar," you tell her earnestly. "I don't know anyone who could possibly have managed the support of the Gods and the people across all of the provinces, nor who could have matched Asavar Kul without Ghal Maraz."

She frowns at you.

"Perhaps. I shall reserve judgement, but for now…no. It is with Nordland and Ostland that I would deal with. Your 'Westerland' has never made any pretenses about their desires, and Middenland holds to their inherited claims from your Drakwald Emperors. Are they inclined to give up such things on your word?"

Would Gunthar give up on any lands claimed by Middenland without a fight? He seemed perfectly happy to get into it over the Middle Mountains, but this could be different. You think. Maybe. If he's recently gotten a blow to the head that left him with permanent brain damage. Or ten. Or maybe just died.

"Absolutely not. If anything, it would only incense Gunthar and intrigue Marienburg, which is the opposite of what we should want to happen. But if the Emperor said it…it might be different."

She actually looks a bit surprised about that. She really must not know Magnus at all. Though, based on all you've learned, you think that Laurelorn's ability to know the outside world must have been steadily shrinking all the while the Empire grew stronger.

"I will think on it," is all she says on that before moving on. "For now…I will focus on those I know."
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Nariel even said that she would think on the suggestion of getting Magnus's support. While, right now in the present she would focus on those she knows. Four years can change things.
 
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spudman said:
I mean bringing it to even Magnus without Naraiel agreeing would be a breach of trust. Torroar even quoted a part of the last update to emphasize that she's reluctant that this be spread before it's finalized. Even to him. She'd have to agree to meet him first. That's before we tell him a damn thing.

But that's all moot if we just get the deal done at the Trident Meeting. We don't have to worry about slowly building approval and things leaking before it's ready because it will be done. People can harp all they want, but the results of better trade relations and non-aggressive neighbors will speak for themselves.
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She said that she wasn't willing to DEAL with Magnus yet. I don't think she'd regard it as some great betrayal if we went to him for advice on the matter, and to inform him of the negotiations taking place, even if we don't bring him in on them right away.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

Next year...
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

Tyrion: "Stop corrupting my squire dammit."
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.

Yo, it's the Northern Quadrant Gang! In serious do think this is part of the solution to her generational issues: she needs to befriend each generation of leaders. She also needs to convince her son to go along with it.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

this is bigger than the trident, this could involve all future wood elf empire relations, we need Magnus for this
 
Parzival95 said:
[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.

Yo, it's the Northern Quadrant Gang! In serious do think this is part of the solution to her generational issues: she needs to befriend each generation of leaders. She also needs to convince her son to go along with it.
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I like that, the heirs can drag Kyrian along with them and get him piss drunk.

okcorral said:
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

this is bigger than the trident, this could involve all future wood elf empire relations, we need Magnus for this
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Let's get it done with the Trident. We establish it for that quickly, others see the benefits, then the idea of working with the Asrai looks better to other provinces and the Empire as a whole.
 
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[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.

Someone has to be the odd one out.
 
Politically speaking, the problem isn't being weak. The problem is being too strong.

The Empire traditionally gives zero shits about Laurelorn treaties because Nordland is weak and alone and Ostland is weak and alone. One isolationist ally matters little.

Laurelorn seen as allying with the Trident however, goes from Strong to Too Strong. Its a potential secessionist move, which they are obliged to counter before it gets too far and they can no longer respond to a new status quo.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
For Two reasons: one, Laurelorn could effectively become part of the northern shield if meetings are frequent enough, and th empire needs diplomatic shaking up. Second, the alliance is going g to require frequent in-person contact to make sure that the immortal elves keep developing new relationships with heirs.

[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.

Maybe we'll get to build things again next turn?
 
spudman said:
Let's get it done with the Trident. We establish it for that quickly, others see the benefits, then the idea of working with the Asrai looks better to other provinces and the Empire as a whole.
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yeah but Larelorn shares borders with Middenland and Mariemburg, both of those places are salty at us, Middenland because of Magnus's brother, and Mariemburg because we ruined their little-trade deal going loud Now only gives them more ammunition for the next electors meet.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
I think the idea of bringing Magnus, or even worse the elector's meet, into our relationship with Nariael is flawed.

As was established, her main concern is trust. When we talked about Emperor Magnus, she said that she was dealing with Us and Stephen not him, because she didn't know him. We vouched very hard, so she might be willing to meet him, but she still isn't particularly interested in that.

I just don't like the idea of hampering our own relation to the wood elves for the sake of inter-imperial relations. I don't see what benefit there is to not inviting her because of what others would think. We aren't going to keep our treaties or agreements secret.They are going to find out about our relationship sooner or later, and the reaction isn't going to be much different.

Especially in regards to Marienburg and Middenland, those two already have it out for us. I find it baffling to base our own development on what our political rivals would approve of. Of course Marienburg and Middenland would be upset by us getting closer to Laurelorn. Marienburg is also upset whenever we build a new ship, or expand Salkalten, or trade with high elves. Middenland is pissed whenever someone from Ostland steps foot into the middle mountains despite the fact that we made a deal.

That doesn't stop us from developing our navy or port, or the middle mountains. If it were up to them, Ostland would still be a poor irrelevant province that when told to jump by middenheim, asks "how high". Hampering ourselves to appease to these sorts of people doesn't seem logical to me.

If someone were to say, Reikland and Stirland will get mad, then I would be amenable. But the people who we are concerned about offending are the ones that are already offended by our mere existence. I don't think we should hold ourselves back meaninglessly.

I guess I am just surprised, and a little sad, that most of the thread seems to be so cautious in this regard.

eh, it's a democracy
 
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