[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
Can I just say how much I love the relationship between Freddy and Eldyra. The poor girl has been without a father figure for so long and Freddy instinctively steps in.

Glad that they are certain to meet up again soon once Everqueen is rested up and returns to talk to the Wood Elves. Hope they meet each other at least somewhat regularly after that.

Freddy might only be around in Eldrya's life for a short time, but I have a feeling it will leave a big impact for her. I hope she meets rest of family so maybe she can befriend the whole bloodline! That way there is a piece of Freddy she can always talk to in his descendants.
The only shame about this vote, which I am admittedly passionate about, is that it has distracted me from my traditional Eldyra fawning. She is just so pure and good. If I was in Frederick's position I would not be able to restrain myself from ruffling her hair. Really my favorite side character this entire arc.
To Tyrion's horror, he would find out that his squire is picking up some Ostlander habits.
 
The "So what?" Here is that the Empire in its current state is very, very nascent, since we have just left the Age of Three Emperors.

Having a group of Electors decide that they are an Empire in miniature, all but declare that their loyalty is to Magnus rather than the ideal of the Empire, and I can very easily forsee that age returning. That means very very bad things for us in case you were wondering.

Acting out like this won't cause the greater Empire to view the Trident as a faction to be courted; it will cause them to fracture among preexisting lines of loyalty from the Age of Three Emperors and rightfully view the Trident as a threat.

We really don't want that.
Problem is that's going to happen anyways. By which I mean the perception part, not actually cutting ourselves off the Empire because that has no purpose unless you really want to be Emperor and we don't. But we did decide to do diplomacy with Laurelorn. And before then we did diplomacy with Kislev, and the Karaz Ankor too even if the Dwarves are arguably an exception. And by the law, leaving aside the perceptions, we do have the right to keep doing it if we want.

The question is: can we tank the hit for having done it when it comes out that we did it? And the answer is that we can right now, but whether we'll be able to in the future is very unclear.
 
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[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

mostly because the MC city has a dwarf district. And the best brew master of them is also a ranger (I think). Basically I don't want to see any old dwarf or/and angry dwarf trying to remove a grudge in that city. Even knowing that the people involved are smart enough to do preparations to avoid problems. I still think that the longer (and stealthy) approach will win the race ^^.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
Problem is that's going to happen anyways. We did after all decide to do diplomacy with Laurelorn. And before then we did diplomacy with Kislev, and the Karaz Ankor too.

The question is can we tank the hit when it happens? And the answer is that we can right now, but whether we'll be able to in the future is very unclear.
I very, very much so hope that you're not saying what I think you're saying. Because it sounds like you're saying the collapse of the Empire with the death of Magnus is inevitable. If that's the case than we absolutely fucked up somewhere and need to refocus on establishing and maintaining inter-Empire ties.

I'm saying that there is a very real concern that continuously belligerently acting like the opinions of the other Electors don't matter, or that we are strong enough alone if need be, etc are actively detrimental to the fragile cohesiveness of the newly reborn Empire, and that keeping it together should be one of our top priorities.

It is also perfectly acceptable to do diplomacy with foreign nations, especially with the implicit backing of the Emperor. What we have not done, is invite Kattarin, or the High King, or anyone else into what is ostensibly a meeting between Elector Counts.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
I find it funny how Freddy she's himself in Mena with how undiplomatic she in general, and likely brings back embarrassing memories of his younger days of being so gosh darn stupid when it came to diplomatic things in general. We made it work... but by all accounts it shouldn't have gone nearly as well as it did. :p

Makes me wonder if Mena's husband and Nat could bond over how crazy it is to cover for their partners all the time.
 
[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.
 
I very, very much so hope that you're not saying what I think you're saying. Because it sounds like you're saying the collapse of the Empire with the death of Magnus is inevitable. If that's the case than we absolutely fucked up somewhere and need to refocus on establishing and maintaining inter-Empire ties.

I'm saying that there is a very real concern that continuously belligerently acting like the opinions of the other Electors don't matter, or that we are strong enough alone if need be, etc are actively detrimental to the fragile cohesiveness of the newly reborn Empire, and that keeping it together should be one of our top priorities.

It is also perfectly acceptable to do diplomacy with foreign nations, especially with the implicit backing of the Emperor. What we have not done, is invite Kattarin, or the High King, or anyone else into what is ostensibly a meeting between Elector Counts.
No I'm saying the perception of us doing bad stuff and potentially separating from the Empire is going to happen. Because we're always looking to grow our power and do effective diplomacy with other Order factions so as to not be destroyed by our real enemies, and there's always somebody who dislikes us in the Empire so they'll always spread that perception. Its just a good line of attack, compared to overt sabotage which will backfire if discovered.

One may note that nobody other than Nordland actually cares about Laurelorn normally. Certainly nobody offers Nordland help dealing with that meat grinder when Nordland actually tries to fight Laurelorn over their land claims, because its not worth their time. Its only now that there may actually be a effective solution that benefits people here, that they'll care, because Nordland growing in power alters the political balance in its favor and away from others who profited greatly from having an advantage over Nordland.

And they'll care no matter when we reveal it. Hence why we should reveal it soon and get it over with, instead of waiting and hoping the next crisis won't distract us. Because the next crisis always distracts us.
 
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[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

Reasoning later.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
No I'm saying the perception of us doing bad stuff and potentially separating from the Empire is going to happen. Because we're always looking to grow our power and do effective diplomacy with other Order factions so as to not be destroyed by our real enemies, and there's always somebody who dislikes us in the Empire so they'll always spread that perception. Its just a good line of attack, compared to overt sabotage which will backfire if discovered.

One may note that nobody other than Nordland actually cares about Laurelorn normally. Certainly nobody offers Nordland help dealing with that meat grinder when Nordland actually tries to fight Laurelorn over their land claims, because its not worth their time. Its only now that there may actually be a effective solution that benefits people here, that they'll care, because Nordland growing in power alters the political balance.

And they'll care no matter when we reveal it. Hence why we should reveal it soon and get it over with.
Yeah, but engaging with an independent elven state that's existed within Imperial territory since before it was Imperial territory, and inviting them in to our power bloc, is the sort of thing that will catapult the Trident from being a mild irritant that they think they might need to address eventually, but don't currently have the power or inclination to confront, all the way up to an immediate threat to their economic stability as the breadbasket of the Empire that they need to address. And meeting with a foreign, oft-misunderstood power with no form of Imperial oversight, in Imperial territory, is literally handing them the dagger that they can stab us with.

Frankly, I think whether it came to some sort of political or military confrontation with our enemies among the Elector Counts, we'd probably win. But the issue is that whoever wins, we all lose. We don't WANT a confrontation because a confrontation weakens the Empire as a whole. By quietly, slowly growing our power, while remaining as a vital bulwark of the Empire, they might scheme up some tricksy shit like the trade reforms the Moot and Marienburg tried to push, but they can't really directly confront us to try and curb our growth, at least not without an overwhelmingly large chance of failure, and an awful lot to lose from that failure. But if we go through with the Trident Meeting with Laurelorn, without any sort of Imperial oversight, we become both an immediate, very large threat to their political authority, and a threat that they have a method to directly attack.

If we at least get the approval of Magnus and take some time to more slowly introduce the idea, while it will still sting them, and they'll still regard it as a threat, we won't be handing them a means to oppose the action on a silver platter when the next Elector's Meet rolls around.
 
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[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.


Our struggle with inter-Empire Diplomacy resulting from the Trident Alliance, and in general, is already tough enough.

I honestly doubt that we can effect relationship improvement in-depth (more than just a personal relationship with Frederich) with Laurelorn on a time-frame smaller than half a century, no matter how many grand gestures we make.

Maybe we could consider an arrangement like this some turns down the road.
It's not like Narielle is going anywhere.
 
[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.

Was there ever really a question? Direct diplomacy is expedient and solid, can't claim the negotiator wasn't empowered to make a deal when the two authorities are directly speaking to each other. It's why state visits are a thing.
 

-you raise a lot of good points but you have to remember the empire is not a centralized state in any way shape or form with each province having its own culture , mindset , laws and traditions along with ancient rights in regards to both autonomy and independence(as the empire is a holy roman empire expy after all) these rights are such a big deal that the elector counts will often close ranks at any attempt by the emperor to take away those rights from any province as they won't allow a precedent that could be used against them being set , one of these ancient rights is the power to make pacts , deals , agreements and alliances within and without the empire like with with the other provinces like us with Kislave , marianburg with the high elves and Ostmark with the dwarfs .

-each elector count is nothing less than a king in his own right with all the power that entails within his province as the empire is not held together by the laws ,edicts , regulation and authority of the emperor , it held by a series of shard religions , a shared language and the unifying national identity and mythos of Sigmar uniting the tribes

- in regards to your points about a hostile emperor there is a qualifier about the office of the Emperor and that is that Magnus the Pious rules because he is Magnus the Pious not because he is emperor after the misrule of the drakwald emperors and the war of the three emperors the authority of the office of emperor was vastly diminished to the point were in theory the emperor may make edicts ,declarations and rules but in practice its up to the elector counts to enforce them and implement them but should the elector count in question decide that said edicts ,declarations and rules are not to his liking then he simply won't and there is an infinite number of acceptable reasons the elector count could give to excuse himself . in summary an emperor rules with the consent of his electors and normally he has said consent as the elector counts are the ones who vote him into office

also the trident controls three of the electoral votes with four other votes from the cults the remainder being the other elector counts with means that between the trident being involved with process of choosing the emperor and the fact that any one with imperial ambitions must court the trident with its three consolidated votes and the fact that no province can be ruled without the consent of its elector count as pointed above means that the tridents can sell its vote to whichever would be emperor that is willing to allow concession to the trident

finally the trident is not actually as unprecedented as it seems as before there was the trident there was the Middenland Northern power block consisting of Middenland , Ostland , Hocland , Ostmark and Nordland which would vote how Middenland directs until the trident formed and broke off from them that is so alliances like the trident can and have been known to exist without much issue within the mess that is the empire's legal and political framework
 
Yeah, but engaging with an independent elven state that's existed within Imperial territory since before it was Imperial territory, and inviting them in to our power bloc, is the sort of thing that will catapult the Trident from being a mild irritant that they think they might need to address eventually, but don't currently have the power or inclination to confront, all the way up to an immediate threat to their economic stability as the breadbasket of the Empire that they need to address. And meeting with a foreign, oft-misunderstood power with no form of Imperial oversight, in Imperial territory, is literally handing them the dagger that they can stab us with. Frankly, I think whether it came to some sort of political or military confrontation with our enemies among the Elector Counts, we'd probably win. But the issue is that whoever wins, we all lose. We don't WANT a confrontation because a confrontation weakens the Empire as a whole. By quietly, slowly growing our power, while remaining as a vital bulwark of the Empire, they might scheme up some tricksy shit like the trade reforms the Moot and Marienburg tried to push, but they can't really directly confront us to try and curb our growth, at least not without an overwhelmingly large chance of failure, and an awful lot to lose from that failure. But if we go through with the Trident Meeting with Laurelorn, without any sort of Imperial oversight, we become both an immediate, very large threat to their political authority, and a threat that they have a method to directly attack. If we at least get the approval of Magnus and take some time to more slowly introduce the idea, while it will still sting them, and they'll still regard it as a threat, we won't be handing them a means to oppose the action on a silver platter when the next Elector's Meet rolls around.
We're not actually inviting them into our power block. We're just meeting them, as a block, in order to finally make some headway with them. Because they're Wood Elves, and as anyone with sense knows they'd rather see the Empire burn than shed a single drop of their own blood.

Also, you miss the point. Because we're meeting with them either way. The only question is whether we're openly meeting them now, or making covert preparations to later openly meet them. But either way we're meeting them, and either way it'll be a dagger for others to stab us with. So the real question is, how well armored will we be when it is stabbing time? And the answer is that it depends on how many of our most prestigious members and supports haven't died.

Because Frederick's reputation as someone whose been attacked in every conceivable way and proven every accusation conclusively wrong counts more than any amount of preparation, but only if he's alive to leverage it. Same goes for our allies, who have great reputations of their own.
 
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[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

I know people like to go for a "who cares what the other provinces think" sort of attitude, but, well, I care? Keeping relations up is the way to make sure the Empire doesn't split apart again. Making sure the Empire doesn't split apart again is the way to make sure it doesn't devolve like it has in the past. The Age of Three Emperors is one of the darkest periods in the Empire's history for a reason. Just look at how many of Freddy's ancestors died stabbing Ludenhofs.
 
@torroar could we get the Emperor in on this at the next Elector's Meet? Not drawing the whole of the Empire into the treaty, but rather getting his seal of approval on the talks, so as to make it properly official.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
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