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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] Do you want to meet an Icewitch?

why not, AV enchanting is not winning this round.

so here is a question that's off-topic @BoneyM, but I've been thinking about since diner with Pan.

we know that the Templars of Sigmar (Witch Hunters) and the Colleges have a thing going were the hunters don't like the colleges and the colleges don't like the Hunters but its 'play nice and work together for the good of the empire.'

but I wonder what the Average Hunter thinks of the different Colleges? ('Average' because obviously there are ones like Van Hal who don't really care and ones that want to 'burn them all' whenever they think they can get away with it.)

Like, with all the religious druid trappings of the Jades and how they have a lot of the 'nice' healing spells. does the average hunter find them more tolerable than say, Bright or Amethyst Wizard?

basically, where do the different colleges fall on the Templars scale of 'they're not that bad' to 'Just give me a reason to shot you, please.'
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
I would argue long term the chaos wastes are salvageable, it would involve being able to expand the waystone network to channel the excess magic of the chaos wastes into the existing waystone network to siphon it off.

Theoretically the end game for success here would be expanding the network enough to clear the contamination to the polar gates.
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I wonder if there might be an easier answer then figuring out how to recreate Waystones?

Something no one else could figure out, cause no one else does theurgy and is interested in this sort of thing.

Architecture that absorbs ambient magic is already a thing, and specifying it for certain winds is already a thing as well. We also know how to establish a link with a deity and throw them energy that doesn't originate from us.

Assuming we get Theurgy down .... could we just make towers of "throw the magic the flows through here at Ranald"?

Can deities handle large amounts of Dhar without getting hurt/corrupted? Cause I bet you that, assuming the above is possible, with our knowledge of Dhar and with some research we could set it to grab Dhar specifically and just stick a few in Sylvania and Bretonnia.
 
So, uh, anybody voting for Do you want to meet an ice witch except me and @Alliterate your votes are separated from the actual plan in the tally for some reason. Fair warning.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
[X] Do you want to meet an Icewitch?

why not, AV enchanting is not winning this round.
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Gonna point out that we probably don't do it next turn either unless we get both of the classes done, because the whole point of delaying it is to max out our understanding of enchanting before we start trying crazy shit with AV.

If you want to take two job actions and still be in position to do AV enchanting research next turn, I'd recommend Fulfilling Obligations v2.
Ericwinter said:
So, uh, anybody voting for Do you want to meet an ice witch except me and @Alliterate your votes are separated from the actual plan in the tally for some reason. Fair warning.
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The reason is that @Parzival95 edited his post from this morning to include a vote for it, which means that the tally views that as the "original" vote, and so votes for it without the sub-items get counted towards that instead of @Alliterate's plan. It has logic to get around this if the word Plan is in the vote item, but "Do you want to meet an Ice Witch" doesn't.
 
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King Arthur said:
I wonder if there might be an easier answer then figuring out how to recreate Waystones?

Something no one else could figure out, cause no one else does theurgy and is interested in this sort of thing.

Architecture that absorbs ambient magic is already a thing, and specifying it for certain winds is already a thing as well. We also know how to establish a link with a deity and throw them energy that doesn't originate from us.

Assuming we get Theurgy down .... could we just make towers of "throw the magic the flows through here at Ranald"?

Can deities handle large amounts of Dhar without getting hurt/corrupted? Cause I bet you that, assuming the above is possible, with our knowledge of Dhar and with some research we could set it to grab Dhar specifically and just stick a few in Sylvania and Bretonnia.
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If it were that easy the elves would have already done it. They understand their gods a good deal better than human do. Generally if the premise for a proposed solution is 'the golden age elves and dwarfs missed something obvious' it's probably not a solution.
 
DragonParadox said:
If it were that easy the elves would have already done it. They understand their gods a good deal better than human do. Generally if the premise for a proposed solution is 'the golden age elves and dwarfs missed something obvious' it's probably not a solution.
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Elves never really got theurgy like humans did IIRC. Tomb Kings have it but the High and Dark Elves do not, after all.
 
ReImagined said:
The Age of Vengeance is Thorgrim's way of going out with a bang because the Runes of Valaya were failing.
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The vast vast majority of the Dawi neither knew the Runes of Valaya were failing nor do they know now that anything related to that has changed. And yet "Age of Vengeance" is a widely spread dream. And I don't believe it all grew on a highly successful propaganda campaign at Thorgrim's command.
"Vengeance" can mean more than trading lives for grudges. I don't remember which chapter we had that conversation with a Dwarf, but as far as I recall he saw the retaking and restoring if Karaks as a sign that it has finally started.
 
DragonParadox said:
If it were that easy the elves would have already done it. They understand their gods a good deal better than human do. Generally if the premise for a proposed solution is 'the golden age elves and dwarfs missed something obvious' it's probably not a solution.
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I don't know, Elves understand their gods but they don't really do Miracles and Theurgy the way humans do.

As in, they seem to see their deities more as a state of mind? Like, deities don't help you with you're problems when you pray to them, you act like you're deity, you approach things like you're deity, and you solve you're problems using the tools of the material world and the winds of magic, it doesn't seem like they actually get help from the Realm of the Gods.

I could be wrong, but it always seemed to me that the Elven relationship with their deities is pretty unique in that they don't really do Faith Magic like the other factions.

Like I said, I could easily be wrong on this, you are the Elves expert here after all.

..........

It is worth noting that moving energy from one end of the planet to the other seems to be this incredibly difficult thing that only top level arcane dudes do, but just sending Arcane energy into the Realm of the Gods is something every Priest who can cast miracles can do. It's literally step one for doing miracles, the very easiest part.

Mopman43 said:
I could easily be wrong of course, but I expect you'd need a human intermediary for any power to get to Ranald. Mathilde was a crucial link in the Mork-to-Ranald power pipeline.
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Maybe, or it could just be the difference between doing it as a spell like effect and doing it as an enchantment.

I could easily be wrong on this, but I think it might be worth looking into. Even if I am wrong and you are right ... if we can make a tower that collects and store's magic and priests can send said magic to the gods, we could just build one somewhere secure and have a bunch of priests come by and empty it every few months.

This might all be impossible speculation and completely wrong, but I think it's worth checking out. Offering magic to the gods seems pretty to easy to do in Warahmmer so it feels like theirs potential, and even if it's impossible I bet you we learn something just by doing the research to find out if it is possible.
 
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King Arthur said:
It is worth noting that moving energy from one end of the planet to the other seems to be this incredibly difficult thing that only top level arcane dudes do, but just sending Arcane energy into the Realm of the Gods is something every Priest who can cast miracles can do. It's literally step one for doing miracles, the very easiest part.
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This is not how miracles work at all. Miracles work, by the priest turning their soul into a warp tear attuned to his or her god and then caughing up the power in the requested form. The world has exactly one mechanism for consistently putting arcane energy back into he Realm of Chaos and it is called the Vortex, a vast and complex spell sustained by a time-locked Calandor Dragontamer and mages of like caliber besides which the greatest mages of even the present day Asur are as children. The idea that we could perform the same function by 'sticking some towers in Sylvania' is very hard to credit.
 
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I think that if we hurt the chaos gods, the chaos wastes will recede somewhat. The more their power weakens, the less of it there is to flow, no?

Honestly, I hope Boney gives us a reason for why they are so strong, because it seems to be like the authors just made them villain sues, but even if he does, they should be a lot more hurtable without devil ex machina propping them up each time they shouldn't have won.

I am not sure why they even do it, apart from W40K success, they have better villains whose strategy I can see working, like the Horned Rat, BSDM elves. orcs and Nagash. I can see why they wouldn't allow their complete defeat, as the chaos gods are just useful for branding and because defeating them changes the setting so much that of course they wouldn't do it, but I have no idea why those idiots and their insane cultists and warped hordes are just the most powerful and dangerous threat by fiat rather than a backround influence/force that enables the actual villains. Heck, being just in the backround and helping people fall, enabling other villains, poisoning magic with dhar would add to their mystique and make them much less "why are those guys the most dangerous threat again?" and much more "the backround, ever scheming, unbeatable evil force that slowly grinds the world down". But they just have to be drama queens that are more successful than they have any bussiness being with the strategy they follow because potatoes and because Tzeentch is supposedly smart.
 
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[X] Plan Classy Ciphers
[X] Plan Classy Navy
[X] Plan Fulfilling Obligations
[x] Plan Fulfilling Obligations v2
[x] Plan Keep It Classy But Do the Job
[X] Do you want to meet an Icewitch?
 
storryeater said:
I think that if we hurt the chaos gods, the chaos wastes will recede somewhat. The more their power weakens, the less of it there is to flow, no?

Honestly, I hope Boney gives us a reason for why they are so strong, because it seems to be like the authors just made them villain suess, but even if he does, they should be a lot more hurtable without devil ex machina propping them up each time they shouldn't have won.

I am not sure why they even do it, apart from W40K success, they have better villains whose strategy I can see working, like the Horned Rat, BSDM elves. orcs and Nagash. I can see why they wouldn't allow their complete defeat, as the chaos gods are just useful for branding and because defeating them changes the setting so much that of course they wouldn't do it, but I have no idea why those idiots and their insane cultists and warped hordes are just the most powerful and dangerous threat by fiat rather than a backround influence/force that enables the actual villains. Heck, being just in the backround and helping people fall, enabling other villains, poisoning magic with dhar would add to their mystique and make them much less "why are those guys the most dangerous threat again?"
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The Chaos Gods are so successful because they are the ultimate expressions of the realm of souls as it exists in the metaphysics, emotion begetting act begetting power from the aethyr begetting more of that emotion and on to the farthest extreme of both emotion and behavior. The more power they get the more they can corrupt mortals to feel what they want, thus getting more power.
 
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King Arthur said:
This might all be impossible speculation and completely wrong, but I think it's worth checking out. Offering magic to the gods seems pretty to easy to do in Warahmmer so it feels like theirs potential, and even if it's impossible I bet you we learn something just by doing the research to find out if it is possible.
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I wouldn't want to create a giant sieve that goes straight into our friend because that sounds like a really good way for somebody to throw in some metaphorical poison. Gods stay untouchable mostly because not doing that is a good way to run into trouble. Being really strong doesn't make you invincible, as any Dark Souls player mobbed by hollows can tell you.
 
Rafin said:
The vast vast majority of the Dawi neither knew the Runes of Valaya were failing nor do they know now that anything related to that has changed. And yet "Age of Vengeance" is a widely spread dream. And I don't believe it all grew on a highly successful propaganda campaign at Thorgrim's command.
"Vengeance" can mean more than trading lives for grudges. I don't remember which chapter we had that conversation with a Dwarf, but as far as I recall he saw the retaking and restoring if Karaks as a sign that it has finally started.
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Skaroki, Karak Eight Peeks: A Confession and a Feast.
BoneyM said:
Skaroki chuckles and ruffles the hair of the nearest lad. "Never underestimate them. If you want something done right, get a Dwarf, but there's none for getting it done fast like the manlings. That goes treble for this'n. Go get the lass a tankard, there's a lad." Thorek (you think) scoots off and Skaroki takes a pull from his own tankard. "As my choice of names for these lads demonstrates, I've believed in the Age of Vengeance since the High King rediscovered our Norscan cousins, but it's almost unbelievable actually seeing it happen. Not just spending lives to shed Grobi blood, but actually recapturing the Karags!"
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Named his twin sons Thorgrim and Thorek in belief of a better future.
 
DragonParadox said:
The Chaos Gods are so successful because they are the ultimate expressions of the realm of souls as it exists in the metaphysics, emotion begetting act begetting power from the aethyr begetting more of that emotion and on to the farthest extreme of both emotion and behavior. The more power they get the more they can corrupt mortals to feel what they want, thus getting more power.
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This... still doesn't make any sense at all except as a handwave. It may make more sense in 40k (where they actually fit better despite originating from fantasy) but here? Here it makes no sense.

Who is the chaos god of sadness and grief and despair and fear? no, it ain't Nurgle, he is apathy. It feels as if they made Tzeenetch the god of hope for the grimderps, it doesn't fit. Who is the chaos god of contentment and positive emotion? It cannot be Slaanesh, their hedonism and excess are drowning actual positive emotions in the sea of carnal emotions. Who is the god of determination and resoluteness? It cannot be Khorne, as the god of anger and fighting his way is all about being impulsive. Why are they all configured in a way that makes them evil, with no counterpart or exception? Why do they grind down the indivinduality of their followers, when that should be anathema to their nature? Why are emotions evil in a corruptive way? Why isn't there a god of emotions being good things or a god of logic if you want to go full "emotions are bad" as an opposing force? Why do they succeed if they are powerful personified emotions, they should still be beaten because of self sabotage. Why does the god of hope and change plan? Why is Khorne the god of fighting first rather than the god of anger? Why is Nurgle the god of plagues first rather than the god off apathy? Why do they cooperate with each other, Tzeenech and Khorne are opposites by this reading, as are Slaanesh and Nurgle. Why does Khorne gain no power from orcs?

The catalogue won't stop. If GW wants to claim that they are somehow different than most other gods, it just raises way, waaaay too many questions. At least in W40K, you could read them as their worst parts being dominant because the universe is such a shit place and enpowers those parts, but in fantasy it makes no sense to claim they are somehow more primal than the other gods while not even really being worshipped, with no good counterparts, while having a united front, and wuthout representing even half of the breadth of human emotion.
 
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