The fact is we most certainly know they aren't dragon princes, you can tell by the lack of dragons. They are not something you can hide.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
The fact is we most certainly know they aren't dragon princes, you can tell by the lack of dragons. They are not something you can hide.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
If the dwarves don't have the manpower (dwarfpower?) to spare for clearing overland routes, why would they have manpower to spare for a war half a continent away? Likewise, if the Empire is barely keeping a lid on things now, a war is the last thing to add to the pile.
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
- Location
- Greece
Problem is, this is not war vs lean years, this is gunboat diplomacy with a small possibillity of becoming a small war with an even smaller possibillity of becoming a big war ifthe small possibility comes to pass vs 5 lean years.
A very expensive gamble with absurdly good odds vs a certain short term loss for long term gains that may leave us vulnerable... I am approval voting both here because I honestly believe both sides have good points, so I am also batting for both.
Because it takes far fewer dwarfs to man a bunch of ironclads for weeks than to clear trade routes for years.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
It's not acceptable that one city can stick up the entire empire like this, and so alternates will be created. The question then becomes how to manage the city. Which is, ultimately, a stationary bandit more than a productive contributor. So I am in favor of bopping then on the nose in principal.
So we want to avoid any options that would significantly weaken the karaz Ankor and the empire.
As is, we are facing overland threats and not naval ones, so using a naval asset to solve this means we don't have to take the military hit else where.
There is a vote for war, and it is not winning. The vote that is winning is gunboat diplomacy, bit diplomacy none the less. So it isn't five lean years vs war, it is five lean years vs a small chance of war. And those numbers are MUCH less easy to evaluate. So I see this as a bad faith argument.
It's not acceptable that one city can stick up the entire empire like this, and so alternates will be created. The question then becomes how to manage the city. Which is, ultimately, a stationary bandit more than a productive contributor. So I am in favor of bopping then on the nose in principal.
So we want to avoid any options that would significantly weaken the karaz Ankor and the empire.
As is, we are facing overland threats and not naval ones, so using a naval asset to solve this means we don't have to take the military hit else where.
There is a vote for war, and it is not winning. The vote that is winning is gunboat diplomacy, bit diplomacy none the less. So it isn't five lean years vs war, it is five lean years vs a small chance of war. And those numbers are MUCH less easy to evaluate. So I see this as a bad faith argument.
Akasha
The Only Truth
- Location
- 「̛̛́́ ͏̨҉̕͏ ͏̶̴」
Hmm... I am a bit torn here. There is only one way to solve this conundrum.
1-3 is trade compensation
4-6 is blockadebusters
*rolls 1d6*
My pocket Ranald has spoken. It is four.
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
Now, let us see the supply of Luck we can expect to be available in the times to come.
Edit: A near-average of 3! And the unholy Tzeentchian critfails have all been countered by the blessed Ranaldian 4s! Balanced, as all things should be. A most auspicious result!
1-3 is trade compensation
4-6 is blockadebusters
*rolls 1d6*
My pocket Ranald has spoken. It is four.
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
Now, let us see the supply of Luck we can expect to be available in the times to come.
Edit: A near-average of 3! And the unholy Tzeentchian critfails have all been countered by the blessed Ranaldian 4s! Balanced, as all things should be. A most auspicious result!
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So invade multiple times with just the few marines on board the ships? Plus going against landbased fortifcations which historically doesn't tend to end all that well for ships...
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Huh, not by Karak Varn? I thought you mentioned the Aver Reach previously? At least, from the other map, it runs close to Karak Varn (the southern bend on that map)Marked in red.
Isn't that connecting to Sylvania?
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
You're an inspiration to all of us in this thread.
It goes just fine for Ironclads, and I imagine the Barak Varr navy are capable of deciding how many ships they need to leave as guards.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Er, the vote winning is for Barak Varr to steam into Marienburg and blow up everything that floats or looks sideways at the Reik. That's a bit past diplomacy.
Sure, maybe Marienburg backs down once they hear that Barak Varr is involved, but I doubt it. They probably knew that from the start, and this is a matter of their very existence.
Dwarves have learned to accept manling foolishness, but they will not adopt that manling foolishness themselves. If their allies are too cowardly to act in the open, then the Karaz Ankor will stand alone.
- Location
- Greece
Problem: said powers may also take advantage of the economic and influence losses of two major powers of order for just as much benefit, if we are giving them that much credit.
- Location
- Brazil
There's another angle to consider here, which some posters raised up but is not being picked: this is still in the realm of diplomacy.
Having a dwarf show up at the table where the Marienburg ambassador is expecting the Empire's capitulation and tell them to stop playing silly buggers or they will get a 20th century fleet shoved up their Renaissance asses might well be enough to make them decide this is not worth it.
Having a dwarf show up at the table where the Marienburg ambassador is expecting the Empire's capitulation and tell them to stop playing silly buggers or they will get a 20th century fleet shoved up their Renaissance asses might well be enough to make them decide this is not worth it.
Because those sailors are already crewing their ships, but securing overland routes means stretching the KA even thinner.
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Valkur
The True Valkyria, Valkur!
- Location
- Fólkvangr
I'd be Down for it.
We are a grey wizard and we should use our shadow powers to sabotage there war efforts. Like, using our womanly charms to seduce the Marienburg Vault Keepers to take the gold with us.
Or some crazy scheme to disappear the gold. Anything to make them really rethink this war thing.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
There's a whole sequence of threats and "no really, the navy is right here, we'll do it"-s that form "gunboat diplomacy" before we get to the actual blowing up of infrastructure.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
I'm saying the naval option has a real probability of turning into a ground war, which will commit the Empire's remaining military leaving it vulnerable, and bleed it militarily and economically more than running a trade workaround with the Dwarves.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
They've known from the start that Barak Varr is the main actor behind the canal. Are you telling me that they haven't considered the possibility?
The maps are inconsistent. This is the closest to what's happening I can show with this map.
For gods sake, Marienburg isn't a bandit and the fact it is a massive centre of trade tends to be very beneficial to the Empire as whole. Just not as beneficial as it would be were it part of the empire and its taxes and tolls would go into the coffers of the Emperor and his cronies instead of the merchant princes... Also you think that the dwarves won't have tolls and taxes on trade moving through their city, river and canal? Again the motivation for building those canals wasn't some altruistic concern but a wish of already rich and powerful dwarven holds to be even richer and more powerful and some humans with the same motivation.
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Zedman7054
Eternally 3rd
- Location
- United States
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
Whatever the results of the vote, I'm just hoping we don't piss off the Elves bad enough to revoke our internship.
Whatever the results of the vote, I'm just hoping we don't piss off the Elves bad enough to revoke our internship.
- Pronouns
- It/They
Staff Notice - This is uncivil, and a borderline violation of the thread policy.
We are not blockading them, we are breaking thier blockade on us. read the goddamn options.
I want to point out that we are giving our opinion. If the chancellor doesn't like it, or thinks it courts a second war of the bread too openly, he will work to kill the canal his own way. We are giving advice and advice can be disregarded.
[X] Write in: I see two possibilities, either we convince them to make up the trade or they break the blockade. It could swing either way, and which way is best depends on how Ulthum will react, which I don't know. Tell me which you prefer and I will try to swing it that way.
I'll be blunt. I don't think we know enough to make an informed decision on the results of the blockade so I say we turn it over to the guy whose job is to predict this stuff.
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
Approval voting for the one I want if the write in doesn't catch on.
[X] Write in: I see two possibilities, either we convince them to make up the trade or they break the blockade. It could swing either way, and which way is best depends on how Ulthum will react, which I don't know. Tell me which you prefer and I will try to swing it that way.
I'll be blunt. I don't think we know enough to make an informed decision on the results of the blockade so I say we turn it over to the guy whose job is to predict this stuff.
[X] They can make up for the loss in trade
Approval voting for the one I want if the write in doesn't catch on.
- Location
- Singapore
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
I think we need to look at this from the perspective of a Dawi, not Umgi. Barak Varr paying for Marienburg's transgressions against Barak Varr's projects? From the Dawi perspective, this is odd to say the least.
I think we need to look at this from the perspective of a Dawi, not Umgi. Barak Varr paying for Marienburg's transgressions against Barak Varr's projects? From the Dawi perspective, this is odd to say the least.
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