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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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vsh said:
Oh boy. We've got another war coming, and this one is on our hands. I'm thinking either Dwarves shouldering the cost, or overland fight. Stopping the canals is stupid, and Asur are too strong on the sea and to risk breaking quarantine.
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The Asur have the largest navy, but they also have the largest obligations for that navy to fulfill. I genuinely don't think they could take Barak Varr's ironclads with the force they could bring to bear, and I am certain they wouldn't be willing to do it even if they could.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I think the fears of War of Vengeance part Two are a bit exaggerated. No one on either side wants that, literally no one. They know it would be suicide. We could see elven raids, more dwarfs being hunted to make beard cloaks, more elves killed on the high seas by ironclads but neither state can afford a full blown war t and they know it. They have known it before Sigmar's Empire was a twinkle in a barbarian's eye.
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If we can trust everyone to be a rational actor you are completely correct, but we have no guarantee that everyone will be a rational actor. After all if everyone had been a rational actor there would have been no War of Vengeance in the first place.

Now the likelihood of a second War of Vengeance happening is very low in my estimation, but the cost if it does happen is utterly and completely ruinous. Which combined with a viable alternative option in terms of increasing trade makes me disinclined to take the risk.
 
Night said:
Finubar's writ is not entirely law like if he were running the Karaz Ankor. He's a leader of Elven society, which sometimes means getting out in front of everybody to take them where they were already going. We know nothing about how the wind blows in Uluthan and if it turns out the Elves are ornery we all lose.
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You belive that the elves being ornery is enough for them to enter a suicide pact war with Karaz Ankor? Personally I have more respect for them.
 
My two cents is that Mathilde has a personal in with the elvish ambassador, not much but still an in. I say we add to any answer the offer to try to go talk to him about the situation to clear things up
 
DragonParadox said:
Trying to independently fight the Karaz Ankor is how the leaders of those Houses come down with a mysterious case of holes in their flesh and sudden examination. The Asur remember the War of the Beard and they know they cannot fight another. They certainly are not going to do it supporting one bunch of mayflies against another.
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Because there's not like there's a persistent cadre of Asur that is deeply hopped up on anti-Dawi juice and repeatedly goes around and shaves dwarves for jollies. Oh wait there is.

And even if the Phoenix King could just kill noblemen/noblewomen (which I heavily doubt), the damage would still be done by the point Finubar takes action.
 
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[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

I think this is the way to go, we present a United front and then unleash the Anton superweapon on them.
 
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BurnNote said:
@BoneyM How about a counterblockade of Marienburg? It's a trade city, and that would hit it hard. And I'm pretty sure that the dwarfs are more stubborn.
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Marienburg is obscenely wealthy. They can afford being cut off from trade a lot better than the Empire can. Unless you also mean cut them off from overland trade, at which point you're talking about a siege and that's called a war.

MonkeyTypewriter said:
@BoneyM How do the Eonir Trade? I'm trying to see how this impacts them. Ulthan is unlikely to have given Marienburg permission to blockade them, so that potentially amounts to a massive loophole or a way to make them back down.
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They're mostly self-sufficient, and what little trade they do engage in is with human merchants in Nordland and Middenland. They don't really have a stake in this.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
The Asur have the largest navy, but they also have the largest obligations for that navy to fulfill. I genuinely don't think they could take Barak Varr's irnoclads with the force they could bring to bear, and I am certain they wouldn't be willing to do it even if they could.
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Whether they can spare an CVBG or five depends mostly on Druchii front, and we have no idea how that's going. There could be a lull in their usual back and forth, and if so, they won't hesitate to sink major competitor's fleet with a vengeance.
 
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Alliterate said:
Hmm. What are we voting on here? I mean, several of those answers seem true, as in things that could happen.
He's not explicitly asking the 'best' way. Will our answer lock in the possibilities so it is the only way?
Should this be like our plan proposals to Abel, where we give a list of options?
(I.e. a plan vote)?
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Any comments on this, @BoneyM ?
Is this almost a meta vote, shaping the future fiction, or about 'making the truth', either of which would be presenting single options? As opposed to Mathilde with her expertise outlining the several possible options. More than one of those seem objectively possible.
 
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SITB said:
Because there's not like there's a persistent cadre of Asur that is deeply hopped up on anti-Dawi juice and repeatedly goes around and shaves dwarves for jollies. Oh wait there is.

And even if the Phoenix King could just kill noblemen (which I heavily doubt), the damage would still be done by the point Finubar takes action.
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Yes, which is why those deeply anti dwarf Asur have already started an apocalyptic war with Karaz Ankor with all the myriad of excuses they have had over the last 3000 years and we are currently living in the Chaos soaked ruins of that battle... Wait.

This feel to me like protagonist arrogance. Of course we will restart the war between these two age old superpower that have maintained their peace for millennia. We are after all the center of the world.
 
Well then, now that I know our feasible courses of action, analysis time.

[ ] The High King could make it so
This is likely to cause discontent within the Karaz Ankor.

Ha ha ha ha noooooooo. That would either kill Belegar of cause him to revolt. Nuuh, not a chance, nosireee, that is the worst option without an equal.

[ ] For sufficient concessions
This would weaken the Empire.

Somewhat traitorous, but I do not care about that as much as I care about the fact the Empire is swarmed with problems that may become the dawi problems if the empire cracks. Not a wise choice, we need strong forces of order.

[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.

A better compromise, maybe? Still leaves a sour taste but it may be the option that weakens the forces of order the least. Let's jot this down an option number 1.

[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.

That would be the least bloody way to do it while stucking up to Marienburg, as well as the most dwarvish way. If Marienburg escalates, we can convince the Dawi to escalate without lies. Lets's jot that as option number 2.

[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.

Lying to the dwarves? Hahahahaha noooooo.

[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded
It's hard to say what this would result in.

Significantly worse than "I do not know", gains us nothing but danger.

[ ] I don't know
Wash your hands of the matter.

Best way to answer if some flaw is found in option 1 and 2, let's jot it down as plan B.

So, as far as I am concerned the choice is between

[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade

or

[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade

I cannot, in truth, decide which of those are better, so unless someone sways me, I will be approval voting both. Should both of those have significant flaws, however, I will go with plan B, which is "I don't know".
 
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We should talk about several possibilities... largely because the chancellor seems to want to do:
[ ] The High King could make it so
...and that's a bad idea. As mentioned, there has never been a civil war amongst the Dwarves... but if Thorgrim just arbitrarily shuts down a project that's so vital to the health and prosperity of multiple Holds, that may not remain true. It's that big an ask. That leads to:

[ ] For sufficient concessions
...and that's expensive, since making up for the loss of the foreseen profit of the canals would require a major expenditure. It's not impossible, but it'd be a huge investment, and one that could be more plausibly applied.

[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded
Regardless of what gets offered, "no canal" is a very hard sell. Karak Azul needs trade, and Barak Varr lives and breathes it, while Eight Peaks sits in the middle... not yet established enough to easily pass up such opportunities. That's why these other options are so expensive. So let's talk about what they can do to make the canals happen:

[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
Perhaps true, but it'd be a disastrous war. Probably one best avoided.

[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the Dwarven naval power. They have the ships and the inclination to make and win a naval war over this. That's not much better than a land war, but the consequences would be better.

[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This is certainly true, and is my preferred option. In the long run, the best way to deal with Marienburg is probably to ignore them until they starve. They can afford to hire an army of mercenaries to defend them against a frontal attack for long enough to overcome the logistics of one of the Empire's attacks. They can't afford to hire an army of mercenaries sufficient to defeat the Empire in an offensive war. As merchants, trade is their lifeblood, and an embargo is a sword that cuts both ways. If Marienburg wants to wield that weapon, let them. They'll bleed themselves dead with it.
 
Whatever we do means that Barak Varr and the rest of the Dawi will declare a grudge against Marienburg. They may stew on it if we ask them to, but there's 0% chance that they won't grudge them
 
Maybe we should write in, with our choice, that the Eonir could be more open to talks then he's expecting.

I'm going to vote for breaking the blockade, because I think that's the best option and that Finubar won't want to fight the dwarves, but we could add a sub-write in that Mathilde believes the Eonir could be convinced to open talks on contributing, for the right agreement.

I kind of feel like the Emperors Council aren't fully communicating with one another, as Dragomas and the Grand Theologist should both be able to tell him more about the Eonir in all this, except the Waystones seem to be a secret and the GT is probably screwing over the Ar-Ulric.
 
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The Asur would be facing both the Karaz Ankor (because Elves means it's not just Barak Varr, even discounting the trade benefits) and the Empire's navy.

There's no perfect solution, but I'm not willing to weaken the Empire or Karaz Ankor for them.
 
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