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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Mopman43 said:
[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon

Eh, what the hell. It is at least more creative than another tower.

My only remaining concern is that it might cause issues with the Ice Dragon if we have to use it to fight some Wyverns or something.
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we Can tell him we were inspired by him. With the right coin running we can even make that a kind if flattery.
 
Whoever turns into a dragon won't have much chance for practice in dragon form until it's do or die - and most likely die.
 
This is literally a shitpost I made back in April:
Derpmind said:
Andres110 said:
How come people don't ask amber wizards to permanently turn them into dragons? Their battle magic has a chance of accidentally making into a dragon permanently so there should surely be some ritual to do that on purpose.
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Notwithstanding the reasonable chance of horrible megadeath, who are you going to trust with the power of Being A Dragon? Who's going to foot the bill for feeding, housing, training, clothing, providing entertainment, etc. for your new force of transformed dragons, especially since as dragons any of them could easily leave for another continent whenever they feel like it? Are they even going to be fully grown dragons or will they need to grow for a few decades before being battle-ready? And if an elder dragon finds out about your artificial dragon industry and is ticked off about it, you and everyone else within a few miles are toast.

All told this is a brilliant plan and if I was an Amber Lord Magister I'd move to begin reckless experimentation immediately. :V
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Quick reasons this is stupid:
  1. Raw magic is poisonous to Dwarves. So much so that something like enchanting the water they drink for cleanlieness would turn them to stone. (That's an example from somewhere earlier in the thread...) Something as extreme as a battle-magic transformation spell is more likely to kill a Dwarf or have super-crippling consequences than it is to work. Edit: And literally every other idea is one that can be used by the dwarves we're building this for.
  2. Dragons have centuries or even millennia of experience being a dragon. Anyone using this item will have a few brief seconds trying to figure out how to move and fly (nevermind fight) in a completely alien body.
  3. Battle-Magic enchanted items are super-heavily restricted. Not only is it rare that there's someone who can even do it, but they only give them out in specific circumstances to very trusted people. Our Regeneration Seed is literally implanted in our palm so it can't be stolen. If there's any kind of magic that the Colleges would restrict from giving out, it'd be a spell that could turn people into dragons. A version that could be used by anyone, and that's repeatable? That's like giving out a nuclear weapon that can manufacture more nukes. (Metal Gear!?) You just don't do that; not even for your best allies.
  4. This kind of magic is the opposite of subtle. If it's ever used, foreign nations are going to hear about it. Dragons are going to hear about it. Everyone will want to either steal the item or destroy it. It could bring major conflict just by its very existence.
 
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BoneyM said:
You can dispel the lingering part of the spell that would allow them to turn back.
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This is one of the canon, rulebook spells right? One that the High and Wood Elves would have access to?
Given the life-span of dragons (unlimited) and how long Elves have been throwing magic about (several thousand years) I would expect there to be a meaningful number of elf-turned-dragons wondering around if being trapped in the form of a dragon was survivable long term. Perhaps there are and they just never bothered telling anyone?


…you know, I think I want to see Mathilde attempt this out of pure curiosity. The reactions alone should be epic.

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon
 
kfrar said:
Especially since we can use our Penthouse action to make an AA-tower on top of that, if we decide to include some more traditional defenses.
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Yeah, I'm thinking we sink some personal Favour into making the Celestial AA tower to deal with lighter threats so we don't need to break out the Dracoknight. That makes sense to me.
Semi-Autogyro said:
Wait. Did we just blow 300 gold on looking for Dragonbone last turn when we can source it ourselves with 'this one wizard trick the colleges would never tell you'?
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That's the most morally horrifying thing someone has said in this thread in the last while.

Have a Funny react.
 
Speaking of dragons and "territorial instincts" and secondary benefits of this spell, I'm now imagining the Ice Dragon's likely response to a trial run ("What the hell is going on down there") and Mathilde's response to its baffled inquiries ("NOTICE ME SENPAI").
 
So random question @BoneyM in regards to a potential anti-air tower, how feasible would it be to make one based around the Shadow Knives spell only using the fact that it's tied to a tower to increase the range by a lot and more importantly increase the number of knives to bullet hell levels.
 
Derpmind said:
Raw magic is poisonous to Dwarves. So much so that something like enchanting the water they drink for cleanlieness would turn them to stone. (That's an example from somewhere earlier in the thread...) Something as extreme as a battle-magic transformation spell is more likely to kill a Dwarf or have super-crippling consequences than it is to work.
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We're transforming a human, not a dwarf.
 
Vebyast said:
Speaking of dragons and "territorial instincts" and secondary benefits of this spell, I'm now imagining the Ice Dragon's likely response to a trial run ("What the hell is going on down there") and Mathilde's response to its baffled inquiries ("NOTICE ME SENPAI").
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I am nnot sure Ice Dragon is going to be happy about sudden single dragons in his area.
Not when it's painfully clear whom is the weapon against. The very definition of diplomatic clusterfuck.
 
I want to be clear here, that turning a dwarf into a dragon is an absolute last resort. The undumgi are the first choice for volunteers, then the halflings, and then, if all else fails, a dwarf.

A crit fail would be a disaster but I'm hoping beyond hope for a crit success.
 
Derpmind said:
This is literally a shitpost I made back in April:

Quick reasons this is stupid:
  1. Raw magic is poisonous to Dwarves. So much so that something like enchanting the water they drink for cleanlieness would turn them to stone. (That's an example from somewhere earlier in the thread...) Something as extreme as a battle-magic transformation spell is more likely to kill a Dwarf or have super-crippling consequences than it is to work.
  2. Dragons have centuries or even millennia of experience being a dragon. Anyone using this item will have a few brief seconds trying to figure out how to move and fly (nevermind fight) in a completely alien body.
  3. Battle-Magic enchanted items are super-heavily restricted. Not only is it rare that there's someone who can even do it, but they only give them out in specific circumstances to very trusted people. Our Regeneration Seed is literally implanted in our palm so it can't be stolen. If there's any kind of magic that the Colleges would restrict from giving out, it'd be a spell that could turn people into dragons. A version that could be used by anyone, and that's repeatable? That's like giving out a nuclear weapon that can manufacture more nukes. (Metal Gear!?) You just don't do that; not even for your best allies.
  4. This kind of magic is the opposite of subtle. If it's ever used, foreign nations are going to hear about it. Dragons are going to hear about it. Everyone will want to either steal the item or destroy it. It could bring major conflict just by its very existence.
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  1. No one is planing to use in on a dwarf
  2. The form comes with the instincts, it's Ghur that is what it does
  3. The GM says it's doable to K8P can get the item approved
  4. Most dragons are sleeping, and the ones that are not have better things to do than listen to gossip about weird magic items
 
Angelform said:
This is one of the canon, rulebook spells right? One that the High and Wood Elves would have access to?
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Yep, straight from WFB.

Sinsystems said:
So random question @BoneyM in regards to a potential anti-air tower, how feasible would it be to make one based around the Shadow Knives spell only using the fact that it's tied to a tower to increase the range by a lot and more importantly increase the number of knives to bullet hell levels.
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Entirely feasible.
 
Derpmind said:
Raw magic is poisonous to Dwarves. So much so that something like enchanting the water they drink for cleanlieness would turn them to stone. (That's an example from somewhere earlier in the thread...) Something as extreme as a battle-magic transformation spell is more likely to kill a Dwarf or have super-crippling consequences than it is to work.
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It's not for Dwarves. Dwarves decide who gets to use it to prevent betrayal.
Derpmind said:
Dragons have centuries or even millennia of experience being a dragon. Anyone using this item will have a few brief seconds trying to figure out how to move and fly (nevermind fight) in a completely alien body.
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All plans have this problem. That's sort of the issue with trying to deal with an immortal Archmage who's also Godzilla. But it does come with sufficient instincts to let the individual operate normally, so this problem is overblown.
Derpmind said:
Battle-Magic enchanted items are super-heavily restricted. Not only is it rare that there's someone who can even do it, but they only give them out in specific circumstances to very trusted people. Our Regeneration Seed is literally implanted in our palm so it can't be stolen. If there's any kind of magic that the Colleges would restrict from giving out, it'd be a spell that could turn people into dragons. A version that could be used by anyone, and that's repeatable? That's like giving out a nuclear weapon that can manufacture more nukes. (Metal Gear!?) You just don't do that; not even for your best allies.
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This isn't a hand-held item. It can be moved, yes, like an Anvil of Doom, but nobody steals Anvils of Doom for the same reason nobody will steal this; it's too heavy to hide, and the dwarves (and the Dragon) will kill them first. The only way they're getting it out of the Karak is if everybody else is already dead first.
Derpmind said:
This kind of magic is the opposite of subtle. If it's ever used, foreign nations are going to hear about it. Dragons are going to hear about it. Everyone will want to either steal the item or destroy it. It could bring major conflict just by its very existence.
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We literally one-shot over five hundred thousand orcs with a single spell, and nobody knows how we did it, and we just kind of brushed them off and gave a lecture about another way to beat orcs and nobody 'wanted to steal or destroy the item'.
 
I have some concerns about the dragon transformation:
Does transformation automatically come with full knowledge of the body? Or would our dragon volunteer need flight lessons first?
For that matter, is dragonflight in whf purely in-setting-physics or is it magically assisted?
Would a nonwizard transformed into a windsensitive creature like a dragon run the risk of creating magical problems the way untrained human mages do?

Edit: The last one is most important to me, because our human turned dragon unintentionally channeling magic they could not perceive let alone comprehend without knowing how to turn it off might cause dragon sized miscasts.
 
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Derpmind said:
  1. Raw magic is poisonous to Dwarves. So much so that something like enchanting the water they drink for cleanlieness would turn them to stone. (That's an example from somewhere earlier in the thread...) Something as extreme as a battle-magic transformation spell is more likely to kill a Dwarf or have super-crippling consequences than it is to work.
  2. Dragons have centuries or even millennia of experience being a dragon. Anyone using this item will have a few brief seconds trying to figure out how to move and fly (nevermind fight) in a completely alien body.
  3. Battle-Magic enchanted items are super-heavily restricted. Not only is it rare that there's someone who can even do it, but they only give them out in specific circumstances to very trusted people. Our Regeneration Seed is literally implanted in our palm so it can't be stolen. If there's any kind of magic that the Colleges would restrict from giving out, it'd be a spell that could turn people into dragons. A version that could be used by anyone, and that's repeatable? That's like giving out a nuclear weapon that can manufacture more nukes. (Metal Gear!?) You just don't do that; not even for your best allies.
  4. This kind of magic is the opposite of subtle. If it's ever used, foreign nations are going to hear about it. Dragons are going to hear about it. Everyone will want to either steal the item or destroy it. It could bring major conflict just by its very existence.
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1. Use Undumgi.
2. Our dragon doesn't have to win, just survive and distract enough to bring the artillery, the gyrocopters, Mathilde and all the other weapons we have in place to attack the hostile dragon.
3. The altar in the plan is relativly well secured already and I'm sure we can ask the Dawi for further paranoia.
4. We are sitting in a Dwarf Hold. There is no safer place to keep an artifact of value, except for a few other holds. Having the altar here, is about as safe as it would be in Altdorf where the people who can cast this spell live.
 
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kfrar said:
We've been going back and forth since the update dropped trying to come up with a good dragon counter and we've been having a devil of a time with it because it's just hard to counter dragons. Some of the other plans involve single visible points of failure, some are just "use your artillery, but, like, better", all of them fail to address the problems posed by tunneling dragons when the dragon the prompted this task attacked by tunneling. Simply making another dragon to at least tie down the real one is honestly one of the best plans I've heard for how to deal with the thing.
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We don't need to build something that one-for-one takes on an enemy dragon. We have entire mountains worth of martial power. We just need something to act as a deterent and/or force multiplier. So "artillery but better" is perfect for the task. Only that's not good enough for the thread I guess.

[X] Plan Versatile
[X] Plan: Skavenslayer with Less Vague Artillery
[X] Plan: Skavenslayer
 
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