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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Andres110 said:
Belegar's not asking for that though. He wants an anti-dragon tower, and I don't think it's right to make him pay favours for something he hasn't asked for.
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Andres110 said:
If we're gonna make it anything but anti-dragon I think Mathilde should pay for the extra stuff out of her own pocket.
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I understand the general idea of financial honesty, but your application of it is baffling. This isn't an Esoteric Romance Novel here, it's a strategic superweapon. We're not building this thing for laughs, we're building it to protect everybody in the hold from somebody disabling our anti-apocalypse superweapon, which we have used to stop the Karak from being apocalypse-d.

Abel's words come to mind again; the only reason we'd need to ask him about this is because we didn't trust our own judgement. A Dwarven King doesn't hand out blank cheques to just anyone. He knows that whatever we use it on is going to be in the best interests of the Karak. If that means shelling out to protect it from a multitude of threats while preparing for a specific one then he will understand, because he's a Dwarf; their cultural meme is spending a hundred years on a job because they want to do it right.
Vebyast said:
I feel like half of the point of the Ranaldian Faith is to find ever more sneakier and more creative ways to stick a thumb on the scales of fortune. It's almost the entire function of Ranald's Coin, for example. Also, we made a ton of money at one point by teaching everyone that the house always wins. I feel like a giant tower that goes "fuck you" to someone's luck sounds like it's right up Ranald's alley.
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Maybe, but on the other hand apparently we wouldn't be allowed to use it, or else Ranald would be annoyed, according to Boney.
 
chocolote12 said:
I understand the general idea of financial honesty, but your application of it is baffling. This isn't an Esoteric Romance Novel here, it's a strategic superweapon. We're not building this thing for laughs, we're building it to protect everybody in the hold from somebody disabling our anti-apocalypse superweapon, which we have used to stop the Karak from being apocalypse-d.

Abel's words come to mind again; the only reason we'd need to ask him about this is because we didn't trust our own judgement. A Dwarven King doesn't hand out blank cheques to just anyone. He knows that whatever we use it on is going to be in the best interests of the Karak. If that means shelling out to protect it from a multitude of threats while preparing for a specific one then he will understand, because he's a Dwarf; their cultural meme is spending a hundred years on a job because they want to do it right.
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Fair enough I suppose.
 
Vebyast said:
I feel like half of the point of the Ranaldian Faith is to find ever more sneakier and more creative ways to stick a thumb on the scales of fortune. It's almost the entire function of Ranald's Coin, for example. Also, we made a ton of money at one point by teaching everyone that the house always wins. I feel like a giant tower that goes "fuck you" to someone's luck sounds like it's right up Ranald's alley.
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Oh, sticking a thumb on the scales of fortune is fine. The issue is using magic to do it, because that implies that Ranald's favor is not enough, and so it would hurt his feelings; we're supposed to be getting all of our fate-bending from him, not seeing Azyr on the side for a bit of dice trick hanky-panky. There are QM citations I could dig out on this subject if you want; it came up in the context of buying magic items with Portent, IIRC.
ReImagined said:
If it's determined by dice roll, then I think it could be needed. Failing results could vary anywhere from "I'm/we're too busy, find somebody else" to "You DARE blaspheme against the traditions of Thungni? I would strike you down where you stand were it not for your status. Cease this research of yours, or know that you have earned my grudge."
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Maybe? My feeling, though, is that we've got a bunch of alternative approaches for AV if "trying to interest runelords from the top down" doesn't work. On the other hand, Belegar wants an anti-air defense system, and he wants it by the end of the year, so stacking the deck there just makes the most sense to me.
Andres110 said:
Fair enough I suppose.
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To @chocolote12's excellent post I would add the following:
BoneyM said:
- The dragon task has a huge amount of latitude, and creativity is encouraged.
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So I feel building in tactical flexibility is only good if it can be done. It might cost more than a dedicated anti-giant-flyer emplacement, but it will almost certainly cost less than a dedicated anti-giant-flyer emplacement and a dedicated anti-swarming-flyer emplacement, so I don't feel we're being irresponsible, as much as I feel where you're coming from regarding the ethics of spending official business money (you'll note, for instance, that I set up the book purchase vote so that we were paying for the romance novels out of pocket rather than with the library subsidy).
 
Rafin said:
Just as a visible refresher, here's the current heart of my "Skaven Knowledge Missile Launcher" plan:

-[V] Collaborate on an anti-air artillery vehicle that can be used by non-wizards and specializes against dragons and ice dragons in particular.
  • Request Light Wizard(s) to identify weaknesses of Ice Dragons.
  • Request a Celestial Wizard(s) for the main enchantments.
  • Request Runemaster(s) to add any helpful runework.
  • Request Dwarf Engineer(s) to aid in basic vehicular mobility.
  • Emphasize the potentially available budget and the results of the last such collaboration while headhunting for collaborators.
  • Suggest the spells Lightning Storm, Urannon's Thunderbolt, Curse and Second Portent of Amul and the Runes of Accuracy and Flakksson's Seeking during brainstorming.
--[V] COIN: The Gambler

What do you all think? Pros/cons compared to other non-tower-based plans?
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I like it. The main pro and con is that it is just laying down a set of design goals and then asking BoneyM to do the hard work.

My personal favourite is still just build lots of runed and enchanted bolt throwers and turn the caldera into a kill zone.

However. All of the current plans ignore that the Dragon (which is the job remember not anti-air for the tower) has demonstrated the ability and will to stay underground and kill tunneling things fro there with out flying in the open at all.
 
picklepikkl said:
Maybe? My feeling, though, is that we've got a bunch of alternative approaches for AV if "trying to interest runelords from the top down" doesn't work. On the other hand, Belegar wants an anti-air defense system, and he wants it by the end of the year, so stacking the deck there just makes the most sense to me.
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BoneyM said:
Your assignment for the remainder of this year is a light one, as Belegar knows you've still got to finish the Reikspiel version of the translation - to create, commission, devise, or otherwise see to some sort of plan for if the Ice Dragon turns hostile, ideally something that could also come in handy against other dragons or any other variety of enormous flying beast. A number of possibilities immediately leap to mind, and it's up to you to decide upon the best of them.
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The wording is 'plan,' not 'system,' so there doesn't seem to be any real sense of urgency there, and there's a reason our preference is diplomacy with the dragon-- if we're relying on anything we make in the next six months against a hostile Emperor Dragon, then we're pretty screwed anyways.
 
[X] Plan Versatile

I am very much in support of another doom tower, because it's just kind of our thing. The biggest worry I have about Plan Versatile is that it doesn't dream big enough, with just lightning, but I'm not familiar enough with the spells available to know what else might be added. I do think it wouldn't hurt to look into mundane AA as a backup to the tower, though, given the resources it seems Belegar is willing to spend.
 
Lupercal said:
However. All of the current plans ignore that the Dragon (which is the job remember not anti-air for the tower) has demonstrated the ability and will to stay underground and kill tunneling things fro there with out flying in the open at all.
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ReImagined said:
The wording is 'plan,' not 'system,' so there doesn't seem to be any real sense of urgency there, and there's a reason our preference is diplomacy with the dragon-- if we're relying on anything we make in the next six months against a hostile Emperor Dragon, then we're pretty screwed anyways.
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I agree that anything we can do in the next six months, without spending all our time and a huge amount of resources, would be grossly insufficient, but:
BoneyM said:
If Belegar wanted Mathilde to prepare for a certain fight it'd be a longer and more detailed process, but he's asked her to contribute whatever she can as a just-in-case, and as a softball for Mathilde.
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This is a just-in-case and a softball. Therefore, I don't think we should overthink it; I think we should build something that will be useful, even if it will be by no means sufficient, and move on. That's why I'd like to get Ranald's help on this, to make sure that it is a solid contingency option and not one we will need to take further actions to patch just to make it do the job we want it to do.

At such time as diplomacy with Sparklebutt breaks down (hopefully never, especially because a nontrivial subset of the thread wants to smooch it), we can go harder in on more options, but for now I strongly believe that Plan Versatile is fine.
 
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[X] Plan: Skavenslayer
[X] Plan: Skavenslayer with Artillery
[X] Plan: Skavenslayer with Less Vague Artillery
[X] Plan: Skavenslayer + Urannon's Thunderbolt
 
BeepSmile said:
Huh. I don't recall this. Can you remember where that happened off the top of your head? I'm curious.

also
[X] Plan Versatile
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The specific example that comes to mind was one of the AV research actions, I think where we tested what exactly sets it off. There might have been one or two others as well, but they escape me at the moment.

that or I'm completely misremembering everything, which is also a possibility.
 
BeepSmile said:
Huh. I don't recall this. Can you remember where that happened off the top of your head? I'm curious.
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Ericwinter said:
The specific example that comes to mind was one of the AV research actions, I think where we tested what exactly sets it off. There might have been one or two others as well, but they escape me at the moment.

that or I'm completely misremembering everything, which is also a possibility.
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Turn 25 part 2, the first update after the Waaagh ended: we had Coined investigating the reaction of living beings to the Vitae, but there were no rolls involved.

This is actually part of why I am less enthusiastic about Coining "show AV to a runelord" as I might have been: my impression of what's going on behind the scenes is that the mechanics for AV, whether it will work or not, are fixed. It'll either work in the way we hope or it won't, and that's the most important factor, which we can't influence. There might be a persuasion roll involved for getting dwarves to actually try it, but I don't think it'll be too hard to meet, especially since we've done loads of safety testing and can confidently answer their questions like "what will make this explode" and "what will it do to skin" and "does it screw up runes." So I just don't think Ranald's Blessing would be well-placed here.
 
Andres110 said:
It was actually in the context of buying an item with the Rune of Luck. It was on the way to Karak Eight Peaks if I remember right.
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You're right, thank you.

I'm calling it a night. Before I do, I would like to encourage people, especially people currently voting for my Plan: Skaven Knowledge Bomb, to support Plan Versatile. I think it does a great job advancing all our goals in an efficient way: our assigned task, ruining the Under-Empire's day, AV, and a self-improvement action into the bargain. Thank you to all the various people whose insights on "ways we could handle the open-ended nature of our task" contributed to that.
 
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BoneyM said:
In stark contrast to the neat and orderly shelves above, these were dotted with a chaotic mess of assorted writings, from tattered books to half-torn scrolls to individual scraps of paper, each kept in a custom-made compartment to keep it safe from the ravages of the years.

"All of it, your Majesty," the Loremaster says, his voice still strong despite his centuries. "Every book, every scroll, every letter, rubbings of wall carvings, even the warpstone-tainted ones are around here, in runed crates. Not quite as glorious as skulls and captured weapons, but it still does the heart good, to gaze upon it all."
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Interesting.

This is almost certainly the single greatest archive of Skaven history in the entire world, just because the Dwarves held onto whatever they could find. Skaven don't bother recording their own history.

BoneyM said:
"You'll have them. Send to Zhufbar and Barak Varr for all the scholars they can spare, in my name. And keep me appraised of everything of interest that you uncover."
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Heh. Flashback to Eight Peaks trying to buy cannons.
 
@Redshirt Army to do the most damage against groups, you should swap out Lightning Storm with Chain Lightning, which is proper Battle Magic. Lightning Storm does one Damage 5 hit to each person in a large template (10 yards wide), compared to a handgun which does Damage 4. Chain Lightning does D6 Strength 6 hits (compared to a handgun which is Strength 4) on the target unit, then there's a 3+ chance of hitting a nearby enemy for D6 S6 hits, which triggers another 3+ chance and so on. Also, because Chain Lightning is Battle Magic, it benefits from the Lore of Heavens' Lore Attribute and so does an extra D6 Strength 4 hits on the first flying unit it targets. (Though depending on how you interpret the wording, it could instead inflict those hits on every flying unit the spell hits.)

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Andres110 said:
@Redshirt Army to do the most damage against groups, you should swap out Lightning Storm with Chain Lightning, which is proper Battle Magic. Lightning Storm does one Damage 5 hit in a large template (10 yards wide), compared to a handgun which does Damage 4. Chain Lightning does D6 Strength 6 hits (compared to a handgun which is Strength 4) on the target unit, then there's a 3+ chance of hitting a nearby enemy for D6 S6 hits, which triggers another 3+ chance and so on. Also, because Chain Lightning is Battle Magic, it benefits from the Lore of Heavens' Lore Attribute and so does an extra D6 Strength 4 hits on the first flying unit it targets. (Though depending on how you interpret the wording, it could instead inflict those hits on every flying unit the spell hits.)

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That's a good suggestion. Also, chain lightning says '-- or there are no more viable targets, because a unit can only be targeted once per magic phase', so that does suggest that each new victim of the spell is in fact a target, yes.

That basically means that chain lightning doubles its damage against the sorts we'd want to use it against, which definitely doesn't fall short of the 'use an entire mountain to shoot your burning shadows spell' insanity standard, even before we start getting into any additional effects we can try to hook on.
 
BoneyM said:
"You'll have them. Send to Zhufbar and Barak Varr for all the scholars they can spare, in my name. And keep me appraised of everything of interest that you uncover."
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I'm wondering why the update is titled "What could be a very large problem". Hopefully the Dragon and a callback to "But I fixed it", but say it's something related to this archive of Skaven writing. What would go wrong? Thorgrim starts to grudge the hell out of the Skaven because now he knows the names of the skaven that were causing problems? Are there any bits of scary history to the skaven, the way the black orcs are an escaped research project? Information about the runes of valaya?
 
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[X] Plan Versatile

Fine. I am sold on the importance of a Tower that can either focus on a single target or focus on multiple aerial targets.
 
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