Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
So here is why I'm against "Scavenge the Gauntlet". Three reasons, basically.
1. First, I don't really want to do anything to encourage more greenskins to be coming in from Black Crag. Yes there's always going to be some flow, but sending minions you don't like to get blown up by fortified dwarven lines is one thing. A chance of "a decen' fite!" against giant spiders might actually attract competent warriors.
2. If a major push happens, I don't want a bunch of We caught between our guns and the orcs coming down the tunnel.
3. It wastes the opportunity to let the We be an early warning signal. If they're hunting in the mountains or the badlands, places we don't have as good an eye on, they can tell us if conditions suddenly begin to change. We keep close eyes on the underway to Black Crag. (Or the Bounty system brings in mercenaries to effectively do the same thing.)
1. First, I don't really want to do anything to encourage more greenskins to be coming in from Black Crag. Yes there's always going to be some flow, but sending minions you don't like to get blown up by fortified dwarven lines is one thing. A chance of "a decen' fite!" against giant spiders might actually attract competent warriors.
2. If a major push happens, I don't want a bunch of We caught between our guns and the orcs coming down the tunnel.
3. It wastes the opportunity to let the We be an early warning signal. If they're hunting in the mountains or the badlands, places we don't have as good an eye on, they can tell us if conditions suddenly begin to change. We keep close eyes on the underway to Black Crag. (Or the Bounty system brings in mercenaries to effectively do the same thing.)
- Location
- Singapore
The Boon was offered to us on Decemebr 15. Today is Feburary 12.
Two months have passed, and no-one has been able to propose a boon that's bigger in scope than the "Grand Library". This is despite two months of discussion about the Boon.
There were several alternative boons on discussion, but most of them were assimilated into the concept of the Great Library Boon. As far as I know, the only other Boon seriously discussed was a Dreadnought, and maybe forced co-operation for the Waystone Project. Both have not been as well fleshed out as a Boon.
The Great Library Boon is really a convergence of several ideas, and is also known as an alternate name: A Center of Learning.
1. Sanctuary for the Colleges in the event of another Dieter IV within the Eight Peaks.
- This was a very early idea discussed. It was folded in the Great Library, as one of the provisos of the Great Library is that the College would be able to find sanctuary there, provided certain conditions were fulfilled - Karak laws were kept, no Black Magisters, no Dhar, etc, etc....
2. A gigantic Library - The Great Library.
- Exactly what it says on the tin, this is the core of the Great Library/Center of Learning idea.
- This doesn't have to be built all at once - the initiators of the Boon have made it very clear from the start that the Great Library is something that grows over time, whose rate of growth more or less depends on the economic situation of the Karak. Books are never accumulated in a single six months period, but is seen as something that is assembled over the span of many many years. In this way, the cost of the Great Library is spread out over time, and doesn't beggar the Karak, as higher acquisition budgets are dependant on the state of the Karak.
3. A Research Institute under Royal Patronage which is grown around the Great Library - A Royal Society of the Eight Peaks if you would.
- Think a cross between the British Royal Society and DAPRA
- The topics that these Research Institute may explore are diverse, from the Windstone Network to reverse-engineering enemy technologies,to staging expeditions to aquire lore and knowledge beyond the Empire and Karaz Ankor, to weapons research and so on.
- The basic idea here is that this Research Society forms the main outgrowth of the Great Library, is built around the Great Library, and grows from the Great Library
- Given the many, many research projects that Mathilde and company are involved in, including moonshot projects like Waystones, a Research Agency/Institution seems to be something Mathilde badly needs.
- You don't cottage industry multiple moonshots, you'd need a Research Institute.
4. (Strictly theoretical): A charter that permits further (future) expansions (beyond Mathilde's lifetime) to other activities like educational institutions and so on, if the future leadership of the Institution so choose.
- While large portions of the thread are wary of the dreaded "Headmistress" Mathilde boogeyman, nothing in this part of the Center of Learning obliges Mathilde to open a School.
- All it does it offer a charter for other members of the Institution (whether it be within or beyond Mathilde's lifetime) to found Schools if they so choose, that take part in the "Great Library" system.
As for the immediate, near-term/upfront cost to the Karak:
1. The Sanctuary has no immediate cost to the Eight Peaks.
2. The Great Library upfront cost is carving out the shell for the Library. As for the Books, they can be slowly or filled in over time as the Karak's economic position is a concern, and indeed, if money is a concern for the Karak, then the growth of the collection must be slow, and therefore it makes sense to start on it as early as possible.
3. The Royal Society is a future component of the Great Library, likely it's first task would be to investigate the Waystones and Karak Eight Peaks role in it. Again this is a moonshot, so Mathilde can't do it alone.
4. Schools are none of Mathilde's concern as of now, and the charter is merely a charter for future expansion far down the line, presumably long after 2 and 3 are up and running.
These I believe, are the four elements of the Great Library/Center of Learning idea. If I've missed anything out, do let me know. Keep in mind this very boon is not a I want it now Boon (this is flat out impossible even if Finances were not a concern whatsoever), but rather, a long term, long time-frame boon. Indeed, because Finance more or less shapes the speed of the growth of CoL (up to a limit), if Finance is a concern, that's all the more reason for the CoL to start now because it's going to grow slowly to be within the means of the Karak. Delaying the Boon for the "Karak to afford the ambition" doesn't make sense from that perspective, because even with unlimited finances, there is only so much growth that is possible.
Remember, we cleared out the book stocks of Barak Vaar during our spending splurge on our own Library. There is only so many books you can buy. There are only so many scholars and Researchers you can attract. There are only so many dorms you can make per turn for Collegiates. So on and so forth.
So far, I haven't seen an idea that is on the same scale as the Great Library/Center of Learning. If you think Big, it's got to probably be at the scale of the Center of Learning, or Greater.
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- Location
- Brazil
They can give out secrets for favor, as long as you don't spread them. We have dwarf niter-producing secrets, for example.
The big thing here is that the Repeater was, in terms of performance, unmatched for two hundred years IRL. It's a game changer.
But it has issues in, essentially, reliability. It's hard to maintain, and unreliable unless painstakingly taken good care of.
Take care of either of those problems, and it's suddenly the best deal for ranged troops humans can have, with one average trooper it outperforming three top tier veterans wielding non-repeaters. Costs for equipment should more or less break even, and you save a lot in manpower. There's only so many young fit men you can draw away from your farms to fight, and far fewer which get to elite levels.
Hard to maintain but reliable, or easy to maintain but needs constant attention is as good or better than most firearms humans have right now. It's being hard to maintain and needing constant attention which puts a damper on the dakka party.
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1) The spiders don't give a decent fight. See the option itself. They'd mainly be picking off targets, the cannons will do for any significant pushes.
2) The We Hunters individually are expendable and they themselves consider that to be true. As part of a larger hive, their ability to tarpit in a sacrificial ploy that costs nothing they find hard to replace, losing nonsapient appendages to delay a major orc push so your dwarves can have a few more minutes to get the guns going is a pro, not a con.
3) Counterpoint is that every one of the early warning signal option pushes We-integration further away, because it has the We primarily active where nobody else is(which is why they'd be early warning signals). Thats not a member of the Karak, so much as a foreign, dependent ally like Ulrickardrin.
3.1) Furthermore, most of the hunting options will slow the growth of the We-population from either difficulty, or maintaining a status quo. The Scavenge option actually gives enough throughput in reliable meat supply that we could probably support a few more breeders. And as populations rise, we could have more than one We colony, so as to occupy multiple fronts with them. Not too many of course, theres only so many apex predators we can feed.
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Admittedly, this is a world that also contains Von Meinkopt's Whirling Cavalcade of Death, also known as the Repeater Handgun. Commonly in use by Outriders.
Dwarf Royal Patronage For Wizards
Within K8∆, wizards can obtain an education in area of expertise taught by dwarfs, access to runes, tools and weapons of dwarf craftsmanship and asylum.
- Location
- Norway
I think that's partly because the "Grand Library" faction was relatively unique in absorbing other options rather than competing with them, and much of the discussion under that name is now more of a Library-University-College-Workshop-Sanctuary. Of course it's big in scope when it's five boons!
I can trivially propose a bigger boon if I say "all that and an ironclad too".
Now, that's a bit silly, but an ironclad with an onboard library as a mobile research lab is more reasonable. Or glue together 3-4 other options from Jyn's list of suggestions.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I could definitely see the We entering an arrangement with the Colleges, providing them with armour silk to make protective robes from in exchange for magical items.
The wording of the "kill faction leader" Scheme is something like "kill faction leader, throwing everything into chaos and causing them to be replaced by rebels." I used it thinking it would be a distraction and buy me breathing room.
Instead, what it does is apparently destroy the entire faction and directly swap all armies and settlements into rebel armies and settlements; in this case, Orc Rebels, because I'm not sure if Dwarf Rebels are even a thing.
- Location
- Brazil
If going for a boat, the costs of a wizard's lab are a rounding error on either an ironclad or a dreadnought.I think that's partly because the "Grand Library" faction was relatively unique in absorbing other options rather than competing with them, and much of the discussion under that name is now more of a Library-University-College-Workshop-Sanctuary. Of course it's big in scope when it's five boons!
I can trivially propose a bigger boon if I say "all that and an ironclad too".
Now, that's a bit silly, but an ironclad with an onboard library as a mobile research lab is more reasonable. Or glue together 3-4 other options from Jyn's list of suggestions.
And dreadnought is in the more correct ballpark for scale, regarding the boon.
- Location
- Singapore
But yeah, it's a Transcendental Boon, so of course, it's ultimate scope became that large and far-reaching, because Think big was the operative word here. The reason why it's called a Great Library is that all of these aspects need.... a honking big library eventually (there is no pressure for the Library to be great now, or even in five years, when these boons are a work of more than a single human lifetime).
Now BoneyM might rule that this is several separate transcendental Boons instead, and the think big in this case has gone overboard. If that's the case, then a debate opens over which of the five parts of the "Grand Boon" we want to choose. But if it's Five Separate Boons, then the point at which the Karak Finances can afford this boon may well depend on which of these Five Boons wins. For example, there is no reason to delay asking for a Sanctum Boon on grounds of "Karak Finances". To give an example, maybe the Sanctum needs a Library, but the deadline for this library to sufficiently support a population of refugee Wizards is probably at least several decades, which renders the Books are Expensive objection trivial.
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- Location
- Brazil
The thing about the Great Library-Research Institute-Wizard Sanctuary is that it already exists.
It's in Altdorf, and called The Colleges of Magic.
Big honking library with every topic under the sun? Either with the Colleges or with the University.
Sanctuary for law-abiding wizards? The College closed ranks when it was outlawed, and proved that the Empire is not hard enough to siege it.
Research institute? That's one of the driving goals behind the College's existence. We gain prestige by literally doing research.
That's why I'm not terribly enthused with it. Logical extensions were added until it became "Found a College Branch on K8P, on the Karak's dime".
Now, if people want to pop a Great Deed to get dispensation to found a College Branch, and have Belegar fund it (which would otherwise be our problem), that's another matter entirely. But then, call it what it is, and do it properly.
But researching Waystones is a phenomenal premise for a college branch already, and Belegar would probably fund it (with the College's assistance, instead of merely consent) as it's a project that heavily benefits the Karak.
It's in Altdorf, and called The Colleges of Magic.
Big honking library with every topic under the sun? Either with the Colleges or with the University.
Sanctuary for law-abiding wizards? The College closed ranks when it was outlawed, and proved that the Empire is not hard enough to siege it.
Research institute? That's one of the driving goals behind the College's existence. We gain prestige by literally doing research.
That's why I'm not terribly enthused with it. Logical extensions were added until it became "Found a College Branch on K8P, on the Karak's dime".
Now, if people want to pop a Great Deed to get dispensation to found a College Branch, and have Belegar fund it (which would otherwise be our problem), that's another matter entirely. But then, call it what it is, and do it properly.
But researching Waystones is a phenomenal premise for a college branch already, and Belegar would probably fund it (with the College's assistance, instead of merely consent) as it's a project that heavily benefits the Karak.
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chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
There was pushback against that, though. Lots of people still want it to remain reasonable in scope.I think that's partly because the "Grand Library" faction was relatively unique in absorbing other options rather than competing with them, and much of the discussion under that name is now more of a Library-University-College-Workshop-Sanctuary. Of course it's big in scope when it's five boons!
I can trivially propose a bigger boon if I say "all that and an ironclad too".
Now, that's a bit silly, but an ironclad with an onboard library as a mobile research lab is more reasonable. Or glue together 3-4 other options from Jyn's list of suggestions.
I just want a giant, quiet library for the bonuses and worldwide nerd cred. Not some bureaucratic mess with a hundred employees and a thousand people who don't even really want to be there.
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- Location
- Brazil
Then use the College's. It's already there.
Or cash 10 DF in gold and buy a ton of books.
Many options which achieve the same and are drastically cheaper.
CuttleFish2.0
Friendly neighborhood cuttlefish
- Location
- Seattle, Washington.
[X] [WE] Hunt the Mountains
[X] [BOON] I have no idea what to spend it on. Put the matter aside for now.
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[X] [DWARF] No purchase.
[X] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
Really not sure why people are buying Dwarf effort on the Repeater now, the production line is up and running. Serious improvements would likely require retooling or rebuilding of the line and delay production by some amount. Or simply be too prohibitively expensive to produce en mass for the factory. Last turn it would have made sense, but now it just seems like a waste.
[X] [BOON] I have no idea what to spend it on. Put the matter aside for now.
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[X] [DWARF] No purchase.
[X] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
Really not sure why people are buying Dwarf effort on the Repeater now, the production line is up and running. Serious improvements would likely require retooling or rebuilding of the line and delay production by some amount. Or simply be too prohibitively expensive to produce en mass for the factory. Last turn it would have made sense, but now it just seems like a waste.
[X] [WE] Hunt the Mountains
[X] [BOON] I know just what to spend it on...
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[x] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
[X] [BOON] I know just what to spend it on...
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[x] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I specifically support the Library because I want Karak Eight Peaks to be a place for scholars to go, though. It is both a favor that makes our lives better and gives the hold something special to attract talented people to it. Win-win.
Here are a few old posts of mine that I dug up:
- Location
- Australia
[X] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Explosives Laboratory
[X] [LIBRARY] The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[x] [COLLEGE] 2 favors for an Item of MMAPP for the Karak's war-room.
[X] [DWARF] Have a Grandmaster Engineer have a go at the Stirland Repeater - 8 favors
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Explosives Laboratory
[X] [LIBRARY] The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[x] [COLLEGE] 2 favors for an Item of MMAPP for the Karak's war-room.
[X] [DWARF] Have a Grandmaster Engineer have a go at the Stirland Repeater - 8 favors
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
So I favor a bounty system.
Scavenging the gauntlet will stop working eventually, and lots of mercenaries will help the karak.
Or maybe a promise to do their best to extract the magical knowledge of the toad-like lizard men(slann) we know about them right?
Or something else. Masses of runic gear? Help in some complex political maneuver?
Scavenging the gauntlet will stop working eventually, and lots of mercenaries will help the karak.
Conquering the Border princes.
Or maybe a promise to do their best to extract the magical knowledge of the toad-like lizard men(slann) we know about them right?
Or something else. Masses of runic gear? Help in some complex political maneuver?
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Let us see... I am confused by what the options on the We mean or are aiming at, and since there are multiple contradictory interpretations that I find credible I am not voting on that.
Given the lack of anything that appeals to me to spend the Boon on and the fact I would rather Belegar focus on ensuring the Karak prospers I would rather kick the can down the road. Maybe someone will come up with a good idea by then.
For the rooms Vault, Ranald and Training Hall seem to be best, don't really have any particular preference on the others. For library going with the relevant ones that people already made and College might as well get the proper translation.
And I think that is everything? So...
[X] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.
[X] [BOON] Save it as a trump card to exploit an opportunity or address an emergency.
[X] [BOON] I have no idea what to spend it on. Put the matter aside for now.
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Training Hall
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[x] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
Given the lack of anything that appeals to me to spend the Boon on and the fact I would rather Belegar focus on ensuring the Karak prospers I would rather kick the can down the road. Maybe someone will come up with a good idea by then.
For the rooms Vault, Ranald and Training Hall seem to be best, don't really have any particular preference on the others. For library going with the relevant ones that people already made and College might as well get the proper translation.
And I think that is everything? So...
[X] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.
[X] [BOON] Save it as a trump card to exploit an opportunity or address an emergency.
[X] [BOON] I have no idea what to spend it on. Put the matter aside for now.
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Training Hall
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[x] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
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- Location
- Brazil
Sure, but like I pointed out in that post you quoted, we don't need the Boon to do most of that.
This "attracting scholars" point seems feeble. What do you actually expect to happen?
People willing to travel to the edge of the civilized world would likely do so regardless of there being a library or not, as they are interested in specific things here.
People who'd travel just for a library are going to that big Verena temple, or Altdorf. Safer, simpler, known.
And again, do you expect us to, what, get a roll for interesting visitors that could benefit us?
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[X] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.
[X] [BOON] Save it as a trump card to exploit an opportunity or address an emergency.
[X] [BOON] Save it as a trump card to exploit an opportunity or address an emergency.
Ranald may be cunning, but he isn't brutal enough to be worth worshipping. When he ascended to godhood he tricked the humie goddess and then didn't even crack her skull open with an axe! What kind of wimp forgets about that? We should convert to the worship of Only Mork immediately, and go axe a Shallyan next time we see one.