Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
IIRC we also get a relations pickup, hence the choice.
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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
IIRC we also get a relations pickup, hence the choice.
- Location
- Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ah, I believe @Derpmind is correct in this case, it offers no benefits, since the STO are already a member. If they weren't, then it would give relations and not PP. Plan edited accordingly.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
@Derpmind Could you please explain why you think that spending two or so diplopushes to affiliate the Sotaw is worth something like 240 points of progress on a large minor polity like the Yrillians or Ashidi?
Edit: If this seems aggressive sorry, not the intent, can't figure out how to write it better.
@Raw90 You can now affiliate the Ataami by giving them that colony (which is the single worst viable one we have). Also, why do you buy a defensive Science focused Task Group when Science is the single strongest stat of our defensive lineup?
Edit: If this seems aggressive sorry, not the intent, can't figure out how to write it better.
@Raw90 You can now affiliate the Ataami by giving them that colony (which is the single worst viable one we have). Also, why do you buy a defensive Science focused Task Group when Science is the single strongest stat of our defensive lineup?
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- Location
- Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Good points. Probably would have changed the task group thing earlier but I've been fairly burned out. Now modified.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Non-afiliates receive small returns from diplo-pushes by design. It's not about choosing the most optimal way to gain bigger numbers. We have 27 non-affiliate polities that we have contact with. Many of whom have multiple tags to work through, are physically distant from Federation space, or simply have had very few events. Meanwhile every one of our Allies has only 1 or 0 tags remaining; is close enough for strong trading ties and mutual support, and often get many events involving them.
Take the Dreamers: Everyone loves them both in and out of universe, and a single diplo-push right now would be enough to get them membership in just a year. But we don't really need to do so; they're going to get there on their own without any further active action from us. The Ashidi and the Yrillians are fairly far away from membership and we might want to push them sometime soon, but even without doing so they're going to keep getting closer year by year anyways. Meanwhile, all the non-affiliates don't have that working for them. Each one we get across the affiliation threshold both gets far more benefit from any future diplo-push but also gets in on the annual diplomacy roll. And those annual diplomacy rolls do a ton of work.
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KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
[X][Council] Plan Briefvoice With Derpmind Diplo
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
This seems to miss that there are substantial benefits to gaining a member as well, including per year income of crew, resources, PP, and possibly research breakthroughs (we used to get research teams from member joining I think), giving them access to our technology, unified supply lines, ability to build in their space, greater support to operations in and around their space, better coordination in case of war, access to their techs and specialities (like Veil Rangers or Gaeni Replicators and Holosuites), etc. Much less a member the size of, say, the Amarki (which Yrillians and Syndraxians seem to be, looking at the map).
I judge these benefits to be worth quite a lot more per year than the number of relation points that automatic rolls provide, much less for a small and so awkwardly placed polity, allying which would likely cause tensions with the Romulans.
Considering that the 72 points left to affiliate the Sotaw seems to be about 3 diplopushes worth, thats about 360 relation points over 3 years (I remember a diplopush being worth about 120 points, correct me if I am wrong), which alongside with automatic rolls (those are still a thing on affiliated polities we are diplopushing right?) means 450 points if I remember correctly. Which is a diplopush away from membership for the Ashidi, or that and some relations from events for the Yrillians.
You have made good points, and I will support affiliating the Sotaw in the future, but I consider Syndraxian, Yrillian, Ashidi and Tauni membership to be of a significantly higher priority.
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Aren't we still limited on how fast polities can become new members due to political compromises? If we are it might be wiser to spread diplopushes around to organize a steady stream of new members over time rather than trying to grab all the low-hanging fruit we can.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
We are not, that's been over for some time now. That said, timing diplopushes to not have more than one polity join per year, or a bunch in a few, is probably wise.
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- Location
- NorthEast
[X][Council] Plan Briefvoice With Derpmind Diplo
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I agree that the benefits of gaining a new member are great. I even put a diplopush back on the Sydraxians after switching to donating a mining colony to the Ataami. But it's a really narrow focus to look at our diplomacy as just a tool to gain us more resources. The Cardassian invasion of the Chrystovians was only two years ago. It'd been determined previously that the risk just wasn't worth it to affiliate the Chrystovians and that we'd be better off "pragmatically" leaving them to the Cardassians. Then, whey they did get invaded, the thread exploded as almost exactly half the thread voted to start a full-on war with the Ashalla Pact. Preventing something like that from happening again is I think worth it. (Not to mention all the other effects that can come from diplomacy besides gaining new members.)
We were still in no position to defend the Chrystovians and refraining from affiliating them was the right call.
/hardtruths
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Which is why I dont narrow my focus like that. I picked the Misek didn't I?
The Sotaw are very much not this case however, they are safe, not dangerous to others, and not necessary or even nice to have for our future expansion.
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- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Given how popular and narrow the vote was, if we had affiliated with the Chrystovians then we'd very likely have intervened when the Cardassians invaded them. Regardless of whether your opinions on the situation, I and many others would have voted to intervene. Even if it had been the "wrong" thing to do, we likely would have done it anyways.
/hashtag
Again, again, why not the Bolians? They're at risk of HoH subversion and invasion. Ignoring them diplomatically doesn't help. IIRC we have several events where the narrative of working against HoH actions towards the Bolians gave us diplomatic progress as their mechanical result.
Look, I know it's kinda hypocritical of me to say this as someone who's argued the minutia of mechanics often in the past, but: Mechanical rewards are ultimately meant to be used to obtain narrative results, and so trading away potential mechanical rewards for better narrative results is a trade we should be willing to take whenever viable. What's all our piles of starships, PP and diplopushes for if we don't use them to solve and/or prevent narrative conflicts?
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
I have never opposed diplopushing the Bolians.
Indeed, though mechanics also affect the narrative, for example more ships and more PP allow us to befriend species and defuse fires faster and more often, or run more FYMs and meet more new friends. But even purely narrative wise a large minor polity joining the UFP seems to be of far greater value than affiliating the Sotaw to me.
Any polity joining the UFP seems to be of far greater value narratively to me than affiliting one, barring rare exceptions, for great many reasons.
And isn't diplopushing the Misek just this? Doing it for the story, not numbers?
Btw, getting closer to the Sotaw is likely to start a conflict, not prevent it.
P.S. I don't see anything hypocritical about you saying this.
Edit: My brain is tired and I suspect that the above is not written nearly as well as it could or probably should be, sorry. Mostly stream of consciousness at this point.
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- Location
- Over the Rainbow
This is probably waaaaay too late to get anywhere, but I finally found time to splice together my own plan. Compared to Briefvoice, it drops the listening posts, engineering ships being built in the Starfleet line yards, and waystations in GBZ, for expanding two existing auxiliary shipyards (in addition to building a new one), and additional resources for Intelligence Command and the FDS, and gives away an SR colony to balance the budget.
[X][Council] Plan Kima's Snakes
More detailed, if somewhat rambling notes:
I've grabbed an extra research colony rather than the high end BR colony. We do need to increase our BR production, but pushing that back a year is effectively a trade of 35 BR for 4.5 pp, which seems like a good deal to me.
I've assumed that we can indeed pass the Ataami that mining colony, despite it being rather closer to Arqeniou/Larcasis, and that this will affiliate them. This is both efficient from our end, and gives them a bit of resources for native industrial use. Qendip III is a little far for a species that only had its first warp flight 2 years ago, but supplies a more peaceful goal and outlook for what would otherwise likely be a rather more militant spacefaring arm of a fledgling race (given their prior experience being raided by the Hishmeri).
I'm against spending a diplomatic push on the Sotaw, given their presence in the neutral zone. Nor do I like spending one on the Sydraxians, where it only decreases their time to membership by about a year (compared to about 3 years for almost anyone else). As alternatives, I'm suggesting the Dreamers (a bit silly to make Dreamer Ranger Gear and then not push for their membership; a push cuts down their time to membership from 3-4 years down to 1), and the Gretarians (who we can ally this year instead of waiting 2-3 years)--although I'm less firm on the latter. EDIT: Switched from the Gretarians, to the Trill, after looking back at the relative bonuses given for polities of differing size. I chose the Trill rather than the Ashidi or the Yrillians because they are about equally far from full membership, but the push also brings them closer to alliance (which is still worth something).
I'm also (in the first big ticket departure from existing plans) advocating for an increase in FDS resources. With the Comet wave arriving next year we can afford the increase in FDS ship use for resolving another tag, and with the rp to pp conversion we should be able to reasonably afford another push per year.
I've also replaced the GBZ convoy stations with expanding Lasieth and MEOW (which are, iirc, auxiliary shipyards), on top of the requested new auxiliary shipyard. This is considerably cheaper, albeit at a one year delay, than using line yards for auxiliary ship production.
As a matter of completeness, espicially if I'm wrong about Lasieth and MEOW, have some approval votes for existing plans with my preferred diplo priorities:
[X][Council] Plan Briefvoice with Kima Diplo
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Raw90 With Kima Diplo
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Enerael with Kima diplo
[X][Council] Plan Kima's Snakes
- Request Research Colony Hill 361 Archive, N'Lask, 9pp, 2 cp, 4 (6.5) pp/year, 4 turns (Sol; may not be transferred to United Earth)
- Request Research Colony Morgana-1321, 2 (4.5) pp/year, 4 turns (GBZ)
- Request Research Colony Free Ferasia, 2 (4.5) pp/year, 4 turns (Ferasa)
- Request Mining Colony V'Ten, 10 (25) br/year, 15 (35) sr/year, 4 turns (GBZ)
- Arrange to Pass Control of a potential colony site to a nearby power, gain +10pp from members or +15 relations from affiliates or other powers - Mining Colony Qendip III, 10 (25) br/year) (Rethelia; pass to Ataami) +15 relations
- Arrange to Pass Control of a potential colony site to a nearby power, gain +10pp from members or +15 relations from affiliates or other powers - Request Mining Colony Kr'ritti V, 12pp, 2 cp, 15 (35) sr/year, 4 turns (Ferasa) +10 pp
- Request Academy Development, 30pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
- Request Explorer Corps Annex Development, 25pp (Gain +0.15 EC O/E/T throughput)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Tauni)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Dreamers)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Misek TAG - [A Bad Neighbourhood])
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Bolians)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Trill)
- Support additional resources for the Federation Diplomatic Service, 60pp (Cap of pushes, and of FDS tags that may be targeted annually, increases by 1)
- Request to start a ship refit project, 20pp, 2 turns for frigates ("low crew" Kepler refit)
- Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Command, 75pp (Permanently gain +3pt under control of Vice Admiral)
- Request an increase in the Research budget, 70pp, +1 yearly Breakthrough.
- Request that an eccentric and esoteric Gaeni defensive project be approved: Dreamer Ranger Gear, 50pp, 20sr, 2 turns
- Request resources for an extra Starfleet Intelligence Operations task group (Will add a Science-heavy event responder for intel events - see notes), 30pp, 1 year, (Offense)
- Request Civil Service cooperation for an early Law Enforcement task group (Will add a balanced event responder for intel events - see notes), 30pp, 1 year
- (9 ep used as follows)
- Request new Auxiliary Shipyard at <Fiiral>, 3ep, 45pp, (12 turns, 1x2mt, 4x1mt Berth)
- Request development of Lasieth Craft Yards, 1ep, 5pp (4 turns, gain 1 new 1m t berth) [Can take multiple times, +5pp per subsequent build]
- Request development of Modern Engineering Orbital Works, 1ep 5pp (4 turns, gain 1 new 1m t berth) [Can take multiple times, +5pp per subsequent build]
- Request new Sensor Platform in a system or map square – (Map Square C5, for Kelowna Front) will add an event card to rebuff raiders on that front. 1ep, 10pp
- Request new Sensor Platform in a system or map square – (Becarra System, for Okatha Front) will add an event card to rebuff raiders on that front. 1ep, 10pp
- Upgrade Convoy Waystations in a particular Sector, 2 ep, 40pp, 4 turns (Paddah Sector)
- 8 extra engineering points from members = 40 pp
More detailed, if somewhat rambling notes:
I've grabbed an extra research colony rather than the high end BR colony. We do need to increase our BR production, but pushing that back a year is effectively a trade of 35 BR for 4.5 pp, which seems like a good deal to me.
I've assumed that we can indeed pass the Ataami that mining colony, despite it being rather closer to Arqeniou/Larcasis, and that this will affiliate them. This is both efficient from our end, and gives them a bit of resources for native industrial use. Qendip III is a little far for a species that only had its first warp flight 2 years ago, but supplies a more peaceful goal and outlook for what would otherwise likely be a rather more militant spacefaring arm of a fledgling race (given their prior experience being raided by the Hishmeri).
I'm against spending a diplomatic push on the Sotaw, given their presence in the neutral zone. Nor do I like spending one on the Sydraxians, where it only decreases their time to membership by about a year (compared to about 3 years for almost anyone else). As alternatives, I'm suggesting the Dreamers (a bit silly to make Dreamer Ranger Gear and then not push for their membership; a push cuts down their time to membership from 3-4 years down to 1), and the Gretarians (who we can ally this year instead of waiting 2-3 years)--although I'm less firm on the latter. EDIT: Switched from the Gretarians, to the Trill, after looking back at the relative bonuses given for polities of differing size. I chose the Trill rather than the Ashidi or the Yrillians because they are about equally far from full membership, but the push also brings them closer to alliance (which is still worth something).
I'm also (in the first big ticket departure from existing plans) advocating for an increase in FDS resources. With the Comet wave arriving next year we can afford the increase in FDS ship use for resolving another tag, and with the rp to pp conversion we should be able to reasonably afford another push per year.
I've also replaced the GBZ convoy stations with expanding Lasieth and MEOW (which are, iirc, auxiliary shipyards), on top of the requested new auxiliary shipyard. This is considerably cheaper, albeit at a one year delay, than using line yards for auxiliary ship production.
As a matter of completeness, espicially if I'm wrong about Lasieth and MEOW, have some approval votes for existing plans with my preferred diplo priorities:
[X][Council] Plan Briefvoice with Kima Diplo
- Request Research Colony Hill 361 Archive, N'Lask, 9pp, 2 cp, 4 (6.5) rp/year, 4 turns (Sol; may not be transferred to United Earth)
- Request Mining Colony V'Ten, 10 (25) br/year, 15 (35) sr/year, 4 turns (GBZ)
- Request Mining Colony LM-34-V-XL, 14pp, 2 cp, 20 (35) br/yr, 4 turns (Tellar)
- Request Research Colony Morgana-1321, 2 (4.5) rp/year, 4 turns (GBZ)
- Arrange to Pass Control of a potential colony site to a nearby power, gain +10pp from members or +15 relations from affiliates or other powers - Mining Colony Qendip III, 10 (25) br/year) (Rethelia; pass to Ataami) +15 relations
- Request Academy Development, 30pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
- Request Explorer Corps Annex Development, 25pp (Gain +0.15 EC O/E/T throughput)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Tauni)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Dreamers)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Misek TAG - [A Bad Neighbourhood])
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Bolians)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Trill)
- Request to start a ship refit project, 20pp, 2 turns for frigates ("low crew" Kepler refit)
- Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1pt of Intel Spending on reports for powers on that border. (Imelak Border Zone), 20pp
- Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1pt of Intel Spending on reports for powers on that border. (Rimward Border Zone), 20pp
- Request allocation for new Engineering Team, 50pp, will allow 2 x Engineering Ships to be built in Starfleet line yards, providing 2 ep on completion.
- Request an increase in the Research budget, 70pp, +1 yearly Breakthrough.
- Request that an eccentric and esoteric Gaeni defensive project be approved: Dreamer Ranger Gear, 50pp, 20sr, 2 turns
- Request resources for an extra Starfleet Intelligence Operations task group (Will add a Science-heavy event responder for intel events - see notes), 30pp, 1 year, (Offense)
- Request Civil Service cooperation for an early Law Enforcement task group (Will add a balanced event responder for intel events - see notes), 30pp, 1 year
- (9ep used below)
- Request new Auxiliary Shipyard at <Fiiral>, 3ep, 45pp, (12 turns, 1x2mt, 4x1mt Berth)
- Upgrade Convoy Waystations in a particular Sector, 2 ep, 40pp, 4 turns (Gabriel Border Zone)
- Request new Sensor Platform in a system or map square – (Map Square C5, for Kelowna Front) will add an event card to rebuff raiders on that front. 1ep, 10pp
- Request new Sensor Platform in a system or map square – (Becarra System, for Okatha Front) will add an event card to rebuff raiders on that front. 1ep, 10pp
- Upgrade Convoy Waystations in a particular Sector, 2 ep, 40pp, 4 turns (Paddah Sector)
- 8 extra engineering points from members = 40 pp
- = 673 pp total
- Request Research Colony Hill 361 Archive, N'Lask, 9pp, 2 cp, 4 (6.5) rp/year, 4 turns (Sol; may not be transferred to United Earth)
- Request Mining Colony V'Ten, 10 (25) br/year, 15 (35) sr/year, 4 turns (GBZ)
- Request Mining Colony LM-34-V-XL, 14pp, 2 cp, 20 (35) br/yr, 4 turns (Tellar)
- Request Research Colony Morgana-1321, 2 (4.5) rp/year, 4 turns (GBZ)
- Arrange to Pass Control of a potential colony site to a nearby power, gain +10pp from members or +15 relations from affiliates or other powers - Mining Colony Qendip III, 10 (25) br/year) (Rethelia; pass to Ataami) +15 relations
- Request Academy Development, 30pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Tauni)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Dreamers)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Misek TAG - [A Bad Neighbourhood])
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Bolians)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Trill)
- Request to start a ship refit project, 20pp, 2 turns for frigates ("low crew" Kepler refit)
- Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1pt of Intel Spending on reports for powers on that border. (Imelak Border Zone), 20pp
- Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1pt of Intel Spending on reports for powers on that border. (Rimward Border Zone), 20pp
- Request that an eccentric and esoteric Gaeni defensive project be approved: Dreamer Ranger Gear, 50pp, 20sr, 2 turns
- Request resources for an extra Starfleet Intelligence Operations task group (Will add a Science-heavy event responder for intel events - see notes), 30pp, 1 year, (Defense)
- Request Civil Service cooperation for an early Law Enforcement task group (Will add a balanced event responder for intel events - see notes), 30pp, 1 year
- (9ep used below)
- Request new Auxiliary Shipyard at <Fiiral>, 3ep, 45pp, (12 turns, 1x2mt, 4x1mt Berth)
- Upgrade Convoy Waystations in a particular Sector, 2 ep, 40pp, 4 turns (Gabriel Border Zone)
- Request new Sensor Platform in a system or map square – (Map Square C5, for Kelowna Front) will add an event card to rebuff raiders on that front. 1ep, 10pp
- Request new Sensor Platform in a system or map square – (Becarra System, for Okatha Front) will add an event card to rebuff raiders on that front. 1ep, 10pp
- Upgrade Convoy Waystations in a particular Sector, 2 ep, 40pp, 4 turns (Paddah Sector)
- 8 extra engineering points from members = 40 pp
- Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Command, 75pp (Permanently gain +3pt under control of Vice Admiral)
- Request an increase in the Research budget, 70pp, +1 yearly Breakthrough
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Enerael with Kima diplo
- Request Research Colony Hill 361 Archive, N'Lask, 9pp, 2 cp, 4 (6.5) rp/year, 4 turns (Sol; may not be transferred to United Earth)
- Request Mining Colony V'Ten, 10 (25) br/year, 15 (35) sr/year, 4 turns (GBZ)
- Request Mining Colony LM-34-V-XL, 14pp, 2 cp, 20 (35) br/yr, 4 turns (Tellar)
- Request Research Colony Morgana-1321, 2 (4.5) rp/year, 4 turns (GBZ)
- Arrange to Pass Control of a potential colony site to a nearby power, gain +10pp from members or +15 relations from affiliates or other powers - Mining Colony Qendip III, 10 (25) br/year) (Rethelia; Attami)
- Request Academy Development, 30pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
- Request Explorer Corps Annex Development, 25pp (Gain +0.15 EC O/E/T throughput)
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Bolians) [Can be taken up to five times]
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Tauni) [Can be taken up to five times]
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Dreamers) [Can be taken up to five times]
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Trill) [Can be taken up to five times]
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species without an N/A tag; 20pp (Misek TAG - [A Bad Neighbourhood]) [Can be taken up to five times]
- Request an increase in the Research budget, 70pp, +1 yearly Breakthrough.
- Request to start a ship refit project, 20pp, 2 turns for frigates ("low crew" Kepler refit)
- Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Command, 75pp (Permanently gain +3pt under control of Vice Admiral)
- Request allocation to expand Colony Command, 60pp, will allow 2 x Colony Ships to be built in Starfleet line yards, providing 2 cp on completion.
- Request that an eccentric and esoteric Gaeni defensive project be approved: Dreamer Ranger Gear, 50pp, 20sr, 2 turns
- Request resources for an extra Starfleet Intelligence Tactical task group (Will add a Combat-heavy event responder for intel events - see notes), 30pp, 1 year, (Defense)
- Request resources for an extra Starfleet Intelligence Operations task group (Will add a Science-heavy event responder for intel events - see notes), 30pp, 1 year, (Offense)
- (9ep used below)
- Request new Auxiliary Shipyard at <Fiiral>, 3ep, 45pp, (12 turns, 1x2mt, 4x1mt Berth)
- Request new Outposts on 4 Rimward BZ Federation Colonies, 2 ep, 10pp
- Request new Sensor Platform in a system or map square – (Map Square C5, for Kelowna Front) will add an event card to rebuff raiders on that front. 1ep, 10pp
- Upgrade Convoy Waystations in a particular Sector, 2 ep, 40pp, 4 turns (Paddah Sector)
- 7 extra engineering points from members = 35 pp
- = 673, 7pp remaining
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Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
I do not understand what you mean by accelerating their joining by only a year. As far as I know automatic rolls dont give +120 points to allies per year.
Dreamers are horrendously exposed, look at the map. Ked Paddah are bad enough already. We will need Licory as affiliates (as OSA as members, but that's a given) at least before pushing Dreamers to join.
Allying with the Gretarians, who are a small polity of extreme pacifists, has almost no value. It is not needed to make them safer, to counter another polities overtures, their space is not of significant importance strategically, and their aid in case of war nearly nonexistent, at least shipwise.
I think that many agree that it's more than worth the PP, there have just been bigger priorities because crisis and limited resources. We will be buying this option soon I am sure, if not this year.
I do not think that we can expand Aux shipyards so? As line shipyards are more expensive than aux, the same action with the same cost being used to expand both makes little sense to me.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Auxiliary berth expansions are part of this year's Snakepit options, and they only cost 5pp. Though to be fair I didn't even notice it until @kimagurena pointed them out.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Huh, I thought that it was the general expansion option applied to aux yards, thanks.
In that case, I think that we might want to drop the aux shipyard for the berth expansions, they seem to be much cheaper in both PP and EP and even faster to build, which is of significant value given the current crisis.
- Location
- Over the Rainbow
The Sydraxians are getting an automatic +50 to their Society and Government in flux each year as they resolve it themselves (post where I noted this last year, and snakepits for 2325 and 2326, for comparison). Without a push, this puts them about 80 points closer to membership per year. A diplomatic push, because it gets less bonuses than annual rolls (see Xenoculture tech rewards, for example), would add about 100 points, or somewhat more than a year of progress. We're thus looking at 5 years to membership with no pushes (needing about 46 points from events/mining colonies/above average rolls to manage with four), 4 years to membership with a single push (needing about 26 points from events/etc. to manage with three), or 3 years with two pushes (needing only a modest 6 points from events/etc. to manage with 2 years, which we could likely manage by passing them a GBZ colony even if the dice conspire against us). Pushing the Sydraxians probably brings them a year closer to membership, unless we're committing to pushing them this year and next year, and probably passing them a mining colony, which only raises the effect of each push to a year and a half. The Sydraxians are making solid progress resolving their own problems; the Federation can help, but our active efforts will have a larger relative effect applied elsewhere.
I agree that the Dreamers are horrendously exposed... but I don't think that having them as allies rather than members would stop the Horizon (or possibly the Breen) from attacking them in an open conflict anyway, so I'm not sure what leaving them at the alliance level is supposed to gain us.
The limited value of allying the Gretarians, along with the fact that they are going to ally in 3 years (with a decent chance at getting there in 2) is why I'm less firm on them than on some of the other choices. If you have a good reason to suggest sending that push somewhere else, I'm open to being convinced, I just didn't (and don't) see a better target.
With regards to adding more aux berths, the two in my plan are quite cheap, but with the increasing costs of further expansions we're better off building a new yard if we want any more than two additional berths.
It's not the pp; it's the ep. Engineering points are scarce and ultimately a new yard is the better investment. I'd rather get the new yard started as soon as possible.
Exposed, eh? Exposed to what exactly? Here's some interesting numbers on the Dreamers. They appear to be a functioning, thriving species so there must be a decent number of them. 100,000? 1 million? 500 million? More?
Let's say there's "only" 100,000 Dreamers in the universe. Let's say that only 1% of them are martially minded, that is willing to strap on their "mining equipment" (that can blow apart asteroids) and go off to war if the Towns are collectively attacked by whomever. So, you know, 1000 of them. 1000 Dreamers going to war is my lowball number. And they have at least some form of equipment. They can joust with starships on at least something like equal terms.
This is in a universe where 50 ships would be considered a mighty fleet.
....
Poor little Dreamers, let's hope no one decides to pick on them. For the sake of the aggressors. Because when hundreds of intelligent cosmozoans armed with mining equipment approach your homeworld, it's not a good day at all. The Dreamers aren't a vulnerable species on a defenseless homeworld we have to protect. They're potentially the most dangerous species in this entire area of space if they are shocked/forced into acting as a group. (And I didn't even get into the fact that without planets to menace, vulnerable members of their population can just vanish into the depths of space if attacked.)
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Uh, well, I have no idea what we need for auxiliary shipyards. It is way cheaper and faster to just take those 1mt berths expansions a couple times than building a new shipyard. But like, how much do we need, and how fast? Switching from the new shipyard to these two expansions saves 35pp + 5pp from not spending the 1 ep. But, since it only takes 1 year to vuild instead of three, do we even need them this year instead of next year? Because if we aren't that pressured for new auxiliary shipyards then putting it off for next year frees up 45pp +15pp from saving the 3 ep. That's enough for an FDS upgrade or a couple other ep-costing options.
IDK, on the one hand this is a "new" option that no one besides Kimagurena noticed and we'd probably benefit from using it, but on the other hand it's been 6 days since the update and even if our GMs allow the vote to continue this late the thread discussion's dried up by now. I've got no doubt that most everyone reading this post probably just don't feel like adding their input anymore.
...I say that right as two more posts show up. Derp.
IIRC that's the cost for ordering multiple expansions in the same year. If we wanted to give M.E.O.W. two new berths in the same snakepit order, then we'd pay 5pp + 1 ep for the first and 10pp +1 ep for the second.
Disagree. 3ep for 3 years straight is 9ep total. For five new berths that we need to wait 3 years before we can use them. Whereas the new options only take 1 year each, so we can build 5 new berths only spending 5 ep over the next three turns. Unless there's some weird scheduling issue I don't know about, it seems to me like it's the better option.
This is the kind of info I think we all assume isn't hidden... IDK what to even say about it.
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Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Well reasoned, though I would counter that member provide quite a bit of resources per year. For example the Ked Paddah which appear to be of similar size give us each year 45br, 40sr, 5rp (old info), 10pp, and most members provide about 1/1/1 crew per year (Ked Paddah provide a lot of crew interestingly). We might well also receive a Breakthrough per year from a large polity joining, as we used to get research teams that way. Combined even a one year of this is worth quite a bit, not to mention getting the new member joining PP bonus earlier to buy stuff with.
That said I am convinced to not oppose dropping Syndraxians, though I don't like it much.
We are expected to do quite a lot more in defense of members than allies. For example If Dreamers are members, the HoH could mount a major offensive on them knowing that we pretty much have to send a fleet all the way there with exposed supply lines, weakening our borders and fleets protecting our industry and population centers that they would really want to get at.
Right now, striking at the Dreamers does not weaken the UFP beyond what ships we have spare to help them out. And diverts HoH ships from the front with us, which we could punish and they know that, they would need more than a few to cause much damage as Dreamers are not helpless.
Yrillians and the Ashidi joining up would be highly valuable, they have a lot to offer. And while in time they would join diplopush or not, that's true for every single polity. Trill would take longer if I remember correctly but are also valuable and their location is of strategic importance.
Aux yard takes 3ep for 3y, so 9 ep/y for 6mt of berths space, as opposed to an extra 1mt berths 1ep/y. I am also wary of investing EP long term in the middle of a crisis if we don't have to.
We have wanted an Aux shipyard for a while now and we have massive amount of PP this Snakepit. If not now, when?Uh, well, I have no idea what we need for auxiliary shipyards. It is way cheaper and faster to just take those 1mt berths expansions a couple times than building a new shipyard. But like, how much do we need, and how fast? Switching from the new shipyard to these two expansions saves 35pp + 5pp from not spending the 1 ep. But, since it only takes 1 year to vuild instead of three, do we even need them this year instead of next year? Because if we aren't that pressured for new auxiliary shipyards then putting it off for next year frees up 45pp +15pp from saving the 3 ep. That's enough for an FDS upgrade or a couple other ep-costing options.
IDK, on the one hand this is a "new" option that no one besides Kimagurena noticed and we'd probably benefit from using it, but on the other hand it's been 6 days since the update and even if our GMs allow the vote to continue this late the thread discussion's dried up by now. I've got no doubt that most everyone reading this post probably just don't feel like adding their input anymore.
...I say that right as two more posts show up. Derp.
I would say that we need an aux shipyards worth of berths within, say, 3 years.
Btw didn't new Snakepit options used to be colored or something?
But yeah I dont have much hope for improvements at this point.
No, I am quite sure that's not the case as the same wording is used for line berths. Its means that with each added berth, the cost of the next one rises by +5pp. Its to encourage multiple shipyards, as expanding one gets more and more expensive.
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Bit of a disjointed post here...
So I'm not opposed to diplo-pushing the Dreamers, but I still disagree with it in general. We only just met the Dreamers 4 and 1/2 years ago. (Sidenote, the logs there are delightful.) Do we really want to rush them into membership so quickly after we've established viable communication with them? On top of it only being 3 years since we had new Members join, and the OSA joining at the same time the Dreamers likely would if we send the diplopush their way. Again, I'm not against it, but it seems a bit much.
This is from last year's snakepit. I want to point out that all our ship berth options have recieved pp reductions due to the new ep system... but our auxiliary yards got a massive 75% reduction. Soooo taking the cost for extra ep into account, they've gone from 20pp to 10pp each whereas a new Auxiliary shipyard still effectively costs 60pp since we need 3 ep for it.
It's the same wording that's been used from past snakepits, and it's always been for if we want to do multiple expansions in a turn to the same shipyard. Ship berths have not been rising in cost by 5pp whenever we build one.
IDK if this has been retconned or not, but: Big friends!
So I'm not opposed to diplo-pushing the Dreamers, but I still disagree with it in general. We only just met the Dreamers 4 and 1/2 years ago. (Sidenote, the logs there are delightful.) Do we really want to rush them into membership so quickly after we've established viable communication with them? On top of it only being 3 years since we had new Members join, and the OSA joining at the same time the Dreamers likely would if we send the diplopush their way. Again, I'm not against it, but it seems a bit much.
This is from last year's snakepit. I want to point out that all our ship berth options have recieved pp reductions due to the new ep system... but our auxiliary yards got a massive 75% reduction. Soooo taking the cost for extra ep into account, they've gone from 20pp to 10pp each whereas a new Auxiliary shipyard still effectively costs 60pp since we need 3 ep for it.
It's the same wording that's been used from past snakepits, and it's always been for if we want to do multiple expansions in a turn to the same shipyard. Ship berths have not been rising in cost by 5pp whenever we build one.
IDK if this has been retconned or not, but: Big friends!