- Location
- Singapore
Two rooms is overkill for basic research, the clean room lab is more than enough.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Two rooms is overkill for basic research, the clean room lab is more than enough.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
If there's will to study it then there's will to study it. If there isn't then there isn't.
For all we know, the dice might come up with a mega-emergency next turn which means we won't study the snakejuice at that point either, or maybe people realise how utterly adorable the We is and we go all in on helping them become productive members of society. The only time we can be sure to get the research through is right now, which is why we vote for it.
Also, convincing people to spend two turns in a row on snakejuice will be child's play compared to my usual challenge of "convince the thread to use necromancy". At least this one actually has popular support...
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
The Dwarven clean room would be built this turn during the post results vote. Turn after the Ulgu room and I don't think we need the Ulgu room for the snake juice research at least the first step.
Also I really like the idea of discussing this idea with Gunnars.
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Not before we start the snake juice research, but if we want to move on from investigating its basic properties to investigating how to manipulate it with Ulgu, for example, having an Ulgu room would probably be very helpful.
I'd probably also want an Earthing Rod as well for that.
Probably a future vote, as I'd say it's too soon for this now. Possibly even something to do if/when Mathilde has sworn the appropriate oaths and has been taught the relevant secrets of his priesthood, so she'd be more likely to know if the question itself is offensive (and if it is, she'd already have had the teachings...)
If Mathilde does learn about the soul from Gunnars, she may end up being the greatest Imperial expert on the secrets of the soul, and as a Grey Wizard. I suppose that's appropriate from the secrets point of view though.
- Location
- Singapore
Oh yes, I'm very much for the Ulgu Room, but bear in mind that some might advocate for the Vault, the Library or the Study first instead. But I certainly think that we need that Ulgu room if we move from basic diagnostics to manipulation, which probably take two APs.
Now, if we scored a Crit, Artificial or otherwise on Snake Juice research, I imagine we may well have a breakthrough on both fronts even without the Ulgu Room.
Honestly, if we are going to research Snake Juice in public in front of our fellow Wizards, which the current leading vote implies, we might as well invite Maximillian to help us out, for the double dice roll. But I do warn you that your argument about unforeseen emergencies actually makes it harder to convince the thread to try again to research Snake Juice - if emergencies will make our APs even scarcer than we imagine, expect the consequences of jumping the gun on future voting appetite for snake juice to be even dimmer. AP Scarcity makes Snake Juice research even harder to make a convincing case for, not easier. And TBH, it's AP scarcity that created the Snake Juice delay to begin with.
If your emergency unexpected AP Scarcity counter-argument is right, it makes even more sense to get that lab up and maximize our Snake Juice success, since higher probability of success equates to lower expected AP expenditure for Snake Juice and lower expected AP expenditure always strengthens the argument for Snake Juice. Heck, it also strengthens the case for bringing in one of our fellow Wizards for the sweet Chamon abilities and double dice roll.
Also: I think that at least trying to make good working relations with Johann avoids one of the possible sources of future AP consuming crisis. Remember, having to replace Johann costs AP. I'm worried about people arguing we can always sack him if it doesn't work out, so we can ignore what he wants to do as much as possible, since it means we would probably need to consume AP to recruit someone to replace Johann. Please, vote for a plan that at least gives us a chance for making good working relationships with Johann - I don't fancy having to consume that AP down the line just because we didn't at least throw him a carrot when we had a chance to do so and synergize with our job this turn.
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- Location
- Australia
Is it more important to check if there's deliberate bad actors inside the trade juggernaut we've publicly taken responsibility for in front of all our allies, or that our normal traders are extra-extra polite to dwarves?
I mean, it's not like we ourselves are in K8P with the EIC outpost we created, and within less than a days shadowhorse travel of any other trouble spot. It's not like putting trusted people in charge of overwatch increases the chances of problematic behaviour getting stopped right away, at the source.
It's not like there's the possibility of enemy agents taking notice of our new internal focus on not annoying dwarves, and taking advantage of not only passing for, but literally being, legitimate EIC agents and deliberately causing problems with dwarves...
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
Is there any reason to suspect deliberate bad actors?
As a side note, for people worried that Johann has nothing to steal from Clan Mor, note this from the update before last:
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
[X] Plan Citadel Focus
With the clarifications from Boney, I'm feeling confident that Mathilde and Johann investigating the rats won't meaningfully tip the Skaven off.
And there are a ton of benefits to bonding with our subordinates - at the moment, Mathilde doesn't know enough about Johann and his abilities to make the best use of him, and as the Court Wizard, we really should rectify that ASAP.
All else aside, Curse of Rust and Fault of Form will let us do some incredibly potent opportunistic sabotage.
As an added bonus, this should synergize with the various spider actions we're taking, too.
With the clarifications from Boney, I'm feeling confident that Mathilde and Johann investigating the rats won't meaningfully tip the Skaven off.
And there are a ton of benefits to bonding with our subordinates - at the moment, Mathilde doesn't know enough about Johann and his abilities to make the best use of him, and as the Court Wizard, we really should rectify that ASAP.
All else aside, Curse of Rust and Fault of Form will let us do some incredibly potent opportunistic sabotage.
As an added bonus, this should synergize with the various spider actions we're taking, too.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Alright, finally got through every single update. This quest really has long discussion times, seriously..
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I know the feeling keeping up with this thread is incredibly time consuming when I woke upthis morning by the time I'd caught to what had already been posted there was another five pages. xD
I am mildly torn between seemingly suboptimal winning "Poke Sneckjuice earlier than optimal" plan, and likewise flawed "Poke Skaven aimlessly without much clear benefit" plan.
There is a bazillion of little things that I'd rather do differently, but nitpicking about that is no good right now. Just have to decide the lesser evil, I guess.
I'd be much more fine with Skaven action if it was, IDK, "Fan the flames of Skaven Civil War" or the like, but I am not sure about plan inertia at this point.
There is a bazillion of little things that I'd rather do differently, but nitpicking about that is no good right now. Just have to decide the lesser evil, I guess.
I'd be much more fine with Skaven action if it was, IDK, "Fan the flames of Skaven Civil War" or the like, but I am not sure about plan inertia at this point.
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- Location
- Austria
I think intent is more off to mollify Johan, because it presumes he is annoyed by us ordering him around and calling him out on his ruse.
Whether it's a good idea (given that he is our subordinate, he gets paid and thus why mollify? OTOH he is Magister and so our peer) is another question, but, well, Skaven tech is not really the point of that action at all.
- Location
- Internet, The
I'd approval vote a variant of the leading plan which replaces the snake research with building a lab.
-[] Investigate the constantly-dripping blood of the Wisdom's Asp. Current accumulation: 12 gallons.
I'd also be open to changing the following two lines, but I don't mind either way:
-[] Instil corporate policy: always be scrupulously honest when dealing with Dwarves.
-[] Teach the We Dwarven semaphore.
-[] Investigate the constantly-dripping blood of the Wisdom's Asp. Current accumulation: 12 gallons.
I'd also be open to changing the following two lines, but I don't mind either way:
-[] Instil corporate policy: always be scrupulously honest when dealing with Dwarves.
-[] Teach the We Dwarven semaphore.
- Location
- Australia
The fact that we've looked for them in every organisation we have any amount of power or authority in?
Or the fact that we've almost always found bad actors, and definitely always found problems that we learned about early and could at least attempt to nip in the bud?
Quest and GM history suggests a logical pattern.
- Location
- Singapore
The mechanical benefits for poking at the Skaven below the Under Citadel this turn is several-fold:
1: We increase the odds of successfully executing our Spider Resettlement priority this turn, if we also go down and keep an eye on both Johann and Clan Mors, and steal any heavy equipment Clan Mors might try to bring to counter the spiders which we have been told explicitly in story itself , that the Skaven would do in response to a Giant Spider incursion. While the Spidernest is behind Dwarven Lines, the Hunting Grounds are beyond Dwarven Lines, so the Resettlement is still vulnerable.
2. We don't know what Johann can fully do, so this is a golden opportunity to know what Johann's full capabilities as a Magister are.
3. We've applied a stick to Johann last chapter, so it's better for our working relations if we apply the carrot this turn. Given that replacing Johann will cause AP, we want to take sensible measures to keep Johann on board, and this is one measure that coincides well with our current Primary priority, the Resettlement of the We in the Under-Citadel
4. If we can get Johann to share Intelligence about Skaven plans and disposition about his expeditions into Skaven territory, this saves us Scouting AP in the future, and many of us do want to keep an eye on what the Skaven are up to below the Eight Peaks.
5. If Johann can secure weapon samples, this means he needs to spend less time and presumably AP raiding Skaven held territory. An above-ground Johann is probably easier to wrangle than a Johann that disappears often for "supply runs". It may mean we can even reliably ask him to help us for two tasks a turn, since he owes us one for Clan Mors, if we need to exercise this option.
Poking the Skaven, therefore, both help our primary task, strengthen our knowledge and relations with Johann , hopefully, help us get eyes on the Skaven we may not have the AP to focus on by making Johann open to sharing Intelligence with us and possibly allow us to call in a favor from Johann. Showing Johann the markets and old battle-lines probably is priceless information for Johann, so it probably means we can ask abit more from Johann down the line. I hope I've illustrated the benefits that supporters of Veekie's plans see in his plan.
@veekie As plan creator: Any other mechanical benefits I have missed? Thanks.
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EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
[X] Plan Not Really Preliminary Anymore
Going with this for now
Edit:
on a sidenote
My boy has grown up *sniff sniff*
Going with this for now
Edit:
on a sidenote
My boy has grown up *sniff sniff*
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- Location
- Australia
To be vaguely fair, I don't think a lab can be built until we contruct new rooms, which is included in the leading plan.
But just like we can no longer buy books the same turn we use them, we can't build and dedicate a room the same turn.
So you'd have to say what action you'd replace snake-juice with.
Not veekie, but the opportunity to use Clan Mors as a loot pinata. It's one of the wealthier skaven clans, and also one that is peculiarly un-skaven in that they're not stupid evil. Organised, non-backstabbing skaven are a big problem, and something to keep a regular eye on and deny assets to.
They're basically the black orcs of the Under-Empire.
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- Location
- Singapore
True, and I don't want an antagonistic situation where Johann is not sharing intelligence with us about Skaven activity he finds out in his free time. Throwing him only stick as the current competing plan proposes, only makes this critical task more difficult than it has to be. If we are worried about keeping a regular eye on the Skaven, Johann has to be our go to man. If we actively show him Intelligence we've gathered, it's a strong hint that he should also be sharing intelligence that he gathers about Skaven movement in his own time in his private shopping trips. We don't have the AP to keep raiding Skaven every turn, and probably would soon have to turn our scouting AP to Greenskins or Ogres - which means we'd have to count on Johann like it or not, if we want to keep a regular eye on the Skaven without eating into AP.
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Thanks for the tag @picklepikkl
[X] Plan Like A Good Neighbour
-[X][MAX] Current Task: Have Maximilian investigate the properties of the spiders' webs.
-[X][JOHANN] Allow him to spend all his time investigating Clan Mors.
-[X][EIC] Instil corporate policy: long-term financial good of the Empire.
-[X][PENTHOUSE] Have a tower built atop Karag Nar: -100gc for 1 room, bonus to room's purpose.
-[X][SOCIAL] Wolf is now fully grown, and is a very large dog or a regular-sized wolf. Train him. (increases his intelligence, may deepen Familiar bond)
-[X] Request the translation item yourself (does not cost an action; converts 3 College Favour to Dwarf Favour).
-[X] Teach the We Dwarven semaphore.
-[X] Help the We establish their new nest below the Citadel.
--[X] Gambler
-[X] You have acquired the possession of the Temple where Ranald mugged Mork. Set up a shrine and spread knowledge of it throughout Karag Nar.
-[X] Spend time assisting with a fellow councillor's task
--[X] Assist Gunnar with burial rites
[X] Plan Like A Good Neighbour
-[X][MAX] Current Task: Have Maximilian investigate the properties of the spiders' webs.
-[X][JOHANN] Allow him to spend all his time investigating Clan Mors.
-[X][EIC] Instil corporate policy: long-term financial good of the Empire.
-[X][PENTHOUSE] Have a tower built atop Karag Nar: -100gc for 1 room, bonus to room's purpose.
-[X][SOCIAL] Wolf is now fully grown, and is a very large dog or a regular-sized wolf. Train him. (increases his intelligence, may deepen Familiar bond)
-[X] Request the translation item yourself (does not cost an action; converts 3 College Favour to Dwarf Favour).
-[X] Teach the We Dwarven semaphore.
-[X] Help the We establish their new nest below the Citadel.
--[X] Gambler
-[X] You have acquired the possession of the Temple where Ranald mugged Mork. Set up a shrine and spread knowledge of it throughout Karag Nar.
-[X] Spend time assisting with a fellow councillor's task
--[X] Assist Gunnar with burial rites