Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Awetduck · Oct 6, 2019

[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
[X] [ENCHANTMENT] Honerable Mention Spurs for Brettonion Foot Knight (3 favors)
[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons

deathofrats0808 · Oct 6, 2019

chocolote12 said:
Greatsword = 10;
Armor = 44;
Armor / Greatsword = 4.4;
Is 4.4 > 1? Yes.

How do you figure?

My understanding is that you need slightly softer and slightly harder portions of a sword, so it can absorb shock, but still take an edge. I'm unsure how much of a suit or armour (presumably largely made of metal as hard as possible) would be suitable for the 'softer' portion, but figured it would be fairly minimal.

NSMS said:
I would call a 10 pound sword oversized, personally; when the quest and Warhammer in general says greatsword I'm assuming they actually mean a longsword, or a more standard two-handed sword.

No, because those would probably count as hand weapons, ie. not particularly good on a battlefield. Zweihanders are greatswords, longswords are not. There's a reason Mathilde is almost shorter than her sword, and it's that big swords are good, little ones are mediocre at best.

avatar11792 said:
Even with Warhammer Fantasy modifications such as RUNEZ and such added, I doubt a Greatsword would be double the weight of an IRL Zweihander, which is the IRL equivalent.

I wouldn't be surprised. GW like to push things to ridiculous levels. Hoethian Greatswords are at least 5 and a half feet tall, but can be used to cut arrows out of the sky.

Lavaflow · Oct 6, 2019

I know it doesn't actually matter for the comparisons being made, but what's the weight of Gomril/Gromil/(sp?) compared to steel?

NSMS · Oct 6, 2019

Kornet said:
We are the first dwarven court mage ever. There is no 'usually' to work with, no expectation to fall upon. During the campaing, Belegars orders to us amounted to 'I have no fucking idea how to use mages, and you are a master, so, tell me, how do I deploy you?'.

Our answer was that a shadow mage is best used as a scout and and an assasin.

So yes, based on established precedent, sneaking is very traditional for dwarven court wizards.

I meant that we're in a role that would normally be occupied by a Runepriest or Runelord or similar; the 'poke weird magic with a stick' role. Except I except that normally the role is more 'smack the weird magic with a hammer until it stops moving'.

Deathbybunnies · Oct 6, 2019

TotallyNotEvil said:
Folks, melting the armor for a symbol of victory is the one shot we got to making the sword gromril.

You know it's not likely that they'll be making our sword their "symbol of victory", right? It'll be something that the Karak will hold onto, forever. Probably something for Belegar, or a statue, or something.

I get you're married to this narrative and think it would be super cool, but it's not happening.

ichypa · Oct 6, 2019

chocolote12 said:
It's a sign of the future, and the newly rekindled spirit to stand up and fight for what's theirs.

If they want to do that, that's fine. Hence, I am voting to give no recommendation, so if they have a better thought on what to do with it they can instead.

Also:

TotallyNotEvil said:
Folks, melting the armor for a symbol of victory is the one shot we got to making the sword gromril.

To answer to all three, the option of making a symbol of victory, by itself, is a worthwhile option.

"Melting down the past to make a symbol of a brighter future" is essentially Belegar's thing.

The importance of morale, of immortalizing go the legend of the Expedition in the form of gromril items plays perfectly with his entire platform.

And that's not saying that we might be voting to give the armor back to a hold that's already firmly within K8P's camp.

As has been said by myself and others, I feel that "making a symbol of hope for the future" being used as a justification to get us the gromril for Mathilde's ubersword is incredibly cringy,

Zaratustra said:
It already isn't the original suit, you missed how it was remade to fit the skaven and would have to remade again anyway if anyone else would want anything with it, is not more of a treasure than any other mass of gromril right now.

Hmm, fair enough.

I still believe we should send back the whole suit.

DarkLight140 · Oct 6, 2019

Deathbybunnies said:
This is now the fourth vote I've made, because I didn't notice people were trying to blow our favours on frivolous shit. I am somewhat more sympathetic to the view that we'll just blow our favours on useless crap if we don't spend them now. It's only because I'm keeping up with the thread right now I've noticed at all.

Literally the only favors spent by the Library vote in question are on Grey Magic. That bonus will apply to every roll to learn or research a new spell Mathilde ever makes from now until the end of the game, and quite possibly a broader selection of magical research and manipulation roll as well. It is the single least frivolous purchase of books she could possibly make; if she is ever going to spend ANY favors on books they should be spent on that.

LeafBug · Oct 6, 2019

[x] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.
[X] [ENCHANTMENT] No purchase
[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Romance Novels, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons. Brettonian Texts: Extensive Romance Novels. Tilean Texts: Extensive Romance Novels.

Fun as the idea of integrating the spiders fully is, I don't see a way of making it happen without some insanely good rolls.
*Edit* I'll accept the other language romance novels, but the empire ones are unnecessary at best.
*Edit 2* Didn't see that the spider amulet thing was going to be voted on later.

Briefvoice said:
Seems incredibly selfish to assume that, "It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth," means "used to make Mathilde's magic sword". I assume a worthy commemoration would be like, a statue or something, or maybe medals of honor for everyone who took part.

The thought of melting the armor down with the assumption it will be for Mathilde's personal benefit kind of turns my stomach to be honest.

Making a statue out of gromril would be a horrendous waste, and I don't think they'd allow anything like that. A 25 favor weapon is explicitly of legendary quality, and there just so happens to be enough (and then some) of some appropriate material to put towards the purpose of making something for one of the heroes of the taking of a legendary Karak. I'm really not certain what else the gromril would be put towards as a commemoration, but I highly doubt it'd be something frivolous considering the practical worth of the metal.

Mopman43 · Oct 6, 2019

Deathbybunnies said:
You know it's not likely that they'll be making our sword their "symbol of victory", right? It'll be something that the Karak will hold onto, forever. Probably something for Belegar, or a statue, or something.

I get you're married to this narrative and think it would be super cool, but it's not happening.

It's Gromril, why would they make a statue out of it? That'd be like a nation under military threat making a statue out of working, modern tanks.

Awetduck · Oct 6, 2019

Zaratustra said:
And what you think of
"Belegar reforges the first gromril found into might weapons to mark this great deed into history " ?
Because reforgin is going to result in more than just our sword.

Subsidiary advice of "partition it out to each master Runesmith and let them do their masterpiece with it" is fun!

Deathbybunnies · Oct 6, 2019

Actually, there's an easy way to check this: @BoneyM, would our sword qualify as the "symbol of victory" being voted for by sword voters, and how offended would the dwarves be if we tried to make it so, or made the recommendation on that basis?

Mopman43 said:
It's Gromril, why would they make a statue out of it? That'd be like a nation under military threat making a statue out of working, modern tanks.

Then go with "Something for Belegar, or something".

Kornet · Oct 6, 2019

NSMS said:
I meant that we're in a role that would normally be occupied by a Runepriest or Runelord or similar; the 'poke weird magic with a stick' role. Except I except that normally the role is more 'smack the weird magic with a hammer until it stops moving'.

A learning advisor is not really a post. It is a multitude of different posts with duties which have very little overlap which happen to compete for the same council slot.

Case in point: a dwarven learning advisor can be an engineer or a runepriest, yet only one of them pokes magic stuff with a hammer.

EVA-Saiyajin · Oct 6, 2019

Hmm, I wonder if Vanhal just stumbled onto the fact he's an incredibly natural necromancer as the Black Plague novels suggest, or he was subtly pushed in that direction by Vlad von Carstein as other sources suggest?

NSMS · Oct 6, 2019

deathofrats0808 said:
My understanding is that you need slightly softer and slightly harder portions of a sword, so it can absorb shock, but still take an edge. I'm unsure how much of a suit or armour (presumably largely made of metal as hard as possible) would be suitable for the 'softer' portion, but figured it would be fairly minimal.

That's called differential hardening, and it's only used in certain sword designs. Tempering steel in the right way by and large does away with any need for it.

deathofrats0808 said:
No, because those would probably count as hand weapons, ie. not particularly good on a battlefield. Zweihanders are greatswords, longswords are not. There's a reason Mathilde is almost shorter than her sword, and it's that big swords are good, little ones are mediocre at best.

A longsword is a two-handed sword, and they were used perfectly well on battlefields throughout history. Same goes for arming swords (one-handed swords). Larger swords have their place, but they're not automatically better and they come with their own problems- you can't use them with a shield, they're more fatiguing to use, etc. Though honestly, on a battlefield? You probably don't want a sword as a primary weapon anyway, especially not if you're going up against armoured enemies. Axes, polearms, etc, might not be a pretty or easy to carry, but they tend to be more lethal against any enemy with decent protection.

Karugus · Oct 6, 2019

ichypa said:
I disagree. It won't be the original suit, so it won't be returning the original treasure.

Isn't that the tone of Belegar's message? Not even to reclaim the glories of Old but to forge something new and wondrous yet?

Isn't that why he and Thorgrim butted heads? Because he couldn't see the sacrifices made for something new and beautiful rather than to avenge something old and forever lost?

That there can be no grand reclamation to recreate the Karak Ankor but that there doesn't need to be? It's not the original treasure, and it's way more radical a message but that doesn't mean it isn't powerful. In the end I think a fairer question to ask is 'do we want the Gromril to be a symbol of retaking the old, or of forging something anew?' We already got thrown out of the capital for our beliefs, taking it further doesn't seem to be that much of a stretch.

chocolote12 · Oct 6, 2019

Korporati said:
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
You sword voters have convinced me well.

Make sure to vote for the armor too, if you haven't already.

deathofrats0808 said:
My understanding is that you need slightly softer and slightly harder portions of a sword, so it can absorb shock, but still take an edge. I'm unsure how much of a suit or armour (presumably largely made of metal as hard as possible) would be suitable for the 'softer' portion, but figured it would be fairly minimal.

Gromril is... Not invincible, but I don't think it works like regular metals.

Deathbybunnies said:
You know it's not likely that they'll be making our sword their "symbol of victory", right? It'll be something that the Karak will hold onto, forever. Probably something for Belegar, or a statue, or something.

I get you're married to this narrative and think it would be super cool, but it's not happening.

Nobody makes Gromril statues, that'd be obscene. The closest existing thing are dwarven golems that are supposed to be able to kill things when you turn them on.

das_slash · Oct 6, 2019

Deathbybunnies said:
You know it's not likely that they'll be making our sword their "symbol of victory", right? It'll be something that the Karak will hold onto, forever. Probably something for Belegar, or a statue, or something.

I get you're married to this narrative and think it would be super cool, but it's not happening.

It's enought Gromril for several items, enough for each "Hero" of the campaign.

Alratan · Oct 6, 2019

Kornet said:
We are the first dwarven court mage ever. There is no 'usually' to work with, no expectation to fall upon. During the campaing, Belegars orders to us amounted to 'I have no fucking idea how to use mages, and you are a master, so, tell me, how do I deploy you?'.

Our answer was that a shadow mage is best used as a scout and and an assasin.

So yes, based on established precedent, sneaking is very traditional for dwarven court wizards.

The court mage is the person on your council that makes sure things go unusually smoothly for you and terrible badly for your enemies, ~~as if~~ by magic.

Dutchman · Oct 6, 2019

[x] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[x] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[x] [ARMOUR] Make no recommendation.

SuperSonicSound · Oct 6, 2019

EVA-Saiyajin said:
Hmm, I wonder if Vanhal just stumbled onto the fact he's an incredibly natural necromancer as the Black Plague novels suggest, or he was subtly pushed in that direction by Vlad von Carstein as other sources suggest?

I mean some one either taught him necromancy or learned via translating the books of nagash. There's no way to get there on your own with out having more years than he would have had to experiment and learn unless he really was a tier above when it comes to magic.

Awetduck · Oct 6, 2019

Do we know who the armor was stolen from? Cause I think given our shit relationship with the high king that might be worth knowing. Knock knock, hey Thorgrim, is this your dads armor?

Alratan · Oct 6, 2019

Deathbybunnies said:
You know it's not likely that they'll be making our sword their "symbol of victory", right? It'll be something that the Karak will hold onto, forever. Probably something for Belegar, or a statue, or something.

I get you're married to this narrative and think it would be super cool, but it's not happening.

I'm pretty sure BoneyM has confirmed that it's possible.

Awetduck said:
Do we know who the armor was stolen from? Cause I think given our shit relationship with the high king that might be worth knowing. Knock knock, hey Thorgrim, is this your dads armor?

Most likely, given where we are? Probably Karak Eight Peaks. Forged gromil is almost indestructible, and only the dwarves know how to (re)forge it, so these plates could have been being recycled for millennia.

Awetduck · Oct 6, 2019

NSMS said:
I meant that we're in a role that would normally be occupied by a Runepriest or Runelord or similar; the 'poke weird magic with a stick' role. Except I except that normally the role is more 'smack the weird magic with a hammer until it stops moving'.

Hahahaha, oh man. Hit Evil with big rocks until it stops doing evil stuff. What a throwback. Those were the days.

Qazplm · Oct 6, 2019

[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a welcome addition to the multispecies community of Karak Eight Peaks.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
[X] [LIBRARY] No purchase.
[X] [ENCHANTMENT] No purchase.

TotallyNotEvil · Oct 6, 2019

Deathbybunnies said:
You know it's not likely that they'll be making our sword their "symbol of victory", right? It'll be something that the Karak will hold onto, forever. Probably something for Belegar, or a statue, or something.

I get you're married to this narrative and think it would be super cool, but it's not happening.

Making commemorative weapons is one of the most classical examples of this sort of thing. Anyone suggesting a gromril statue would get a roaring round of laughter at best.

Every gram of gromril is put to use. To the point that it's literally impossible to simply acquire it, no matter how many favors we burn. We can only get it by finding more ourselves.

And, with that in mind, consider what Boney said: Gromril is worth the most as a symbol.

What do you think they will make out of it?

And do the folks who think Reforging is a vanity project, did you consider the DM's words? Do you still think using the first gromril "found" in K8P as a symbol for all the reconquest stands for is a waste?

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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