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The construction of the village is not entirely speculation. We know there is no wood locally for the town to be made from wood. If you want everyone gold off voting until @BoneyM returns and confirms what the town is made fo that would be fair enough, but that's not your argument, you want to ignore a serious problem the plan you support may have and assume everything is fine. The burden of proof that a plan will work should be on its supporters, not vice versa. To justify why this plan should work, you should be presenting evidence that the town isn't just flammable, but very, very highly flammable so that a fire would spread very quickly. Old human towns in the real world were full of very flammable things. We can be almost absolutely certain that these buildings are less flammable than that, simply because they won't be full of pitch, which is an accelerant, or dry fabrics, or have the walls almost literally made of kindling (plaster and lathe). Fires in historic cities cannot be used as a model here.
And while you could potentially be right, that still is mostly speculation based off of a lot of conjecture rather than anything explicitly stated in the story.

But if you want evidence of potential flammability then we have already gotten an example of Greenskin dwellings being flammable with how previously how the Goblin dwellings in the hall of the moon went up in flames and I have no reason to believe that the dwellings in the village should be any different. Secondly the entire place is described as a shanty town where all the buildings are packed close together and only a few proper roads, those are highly susceptible to fire even in modern settlements (or as modern as informal shack sprawls can get) they often burn out of control if not put out immediately.

On the ranger, orcs move significantly faster than dwarves, and as soon as a fire is lit the plume of smoke will give the location away almost immediately.
This is still an Orc town, there should be smoke rising from all over the place. By the time the fire has reached the point that the Orcs will notice the smoke the Rangers should be long gone.

Honestly I feel like you are drastically underselling the skill of the rangers here.
Mathilde still has to set all the fires that are anywhere useful. She's still the single point of failure. And you're still assuming that setting fires is instantaneous and trivial to do. The backers of this plan haven't even identified how Mathilde even starts a fire in the first place, even making the heroic assumptions that the buildings are made out of wood, and for some reason are made of highly flammable wood. People have talked about accelerants, but I'm pretty sure matches don't exist.
That is rather disingenuous. Mainly because I have not at any point said that setting the fire is instantaneous or trivial to do, merely that with the current state of how sections of the town are abandoned that means that we have relatively easily accessed areas to work in to set our fires. Additionally when I say a "Single point of failure" I am referring to a single point where if things go wrong the entire operation fails, in the Burning Shadow plan it relies on Mathilde being able to cast a Burning Shadow spell on the Citadel's shadow.

Now while I acknowledge that the GM has said it is possible to use Burning Shadow in such a manner, I feel like I should point out that such a usage is almost certainly at the limit of the spell's capabilities and will almost certainly require a roll in order to work properly. As such if something goes wrong there then the entire plan is ruined.

This isn't true for the Fire plan, because while a key part is going to be Mathilde setting the buildings in the direction of the Citadel ablaze, if that part fails that doesn't ruin teh entire plans as other parts of our forces will be using various methods to set the fires. Hence my previous statement, the fire plan has redundancy to it as each successful fire lighting attempt adds to the overall blaze.

Also there are multiple way to light a fire for example some flint to make the initial sparks. Do remember that cannons and handguns are a thing so there should be man portal way to light fires available.
Also, if the town can be set on fire and will catch that quickly, the Burning Shadows plan does that as well, as it has the grudge throwers fire whatever is useful at Grobi town as the attack goes in.

It does so in a way that doesn't risk wasting the lives of the Rangers or waste Mathilde's time doing something that a catapult can do better, because the catapult can throw an awful lot bigger incendiary to light one fire than Mathilde or a Ranger can carry in total.

Why spend Rangers' lives (at least some are bound to die) and the opportunity cost of Mathilde's time on something we can do much easier, quicker, and better with artillery?
Burning Shadows doesn't work like that, it's more like an acid in how it effects things. Also if the Catapults can do so then adding more fire starting attempts would just make the blaze even bigger at a faster pace.
 
The only way I can see Greenskins running away from odd fires starting up is if a large portion of the place spontaneously caught fire.
 
Um. You are all being very vehement, and pretty much addressing objections with assertions. It's a bit volatile esp given we had the thread locked recently based on similar escalations. Maybe a bit more politeness? Please? This doesn't have to be toxic.



We know local grobi huts burn because the ones in Karag Lune did, and those were built under the same constraints on construction materials. Also, given the huge cavern/tunnel system, I'd expect the caldera to be pretty well drained. Unsure of the overall rainfall levels, but since wells were an attack vector when K8P fell last time, I'd suspect semi-arid at best.



I'll grant this is possible, but: normal castings don't cover hundreds of square yards for hours, which is what we need. It's reasonable to expect that even though the GM says we can do it, there will be large penalties related to the sheer volume of magic requires to drive like 100x more coverage than usual.

But I'm most worried about how long we'd need to keep it up.

Plus, vulnerable to turtle formations and advancing behind obstacles. It only impacts stuff it falls directly on, right? Caltrops and artillery will help here, but would need to be targeted to breaking up protective formations rather than targeting chaos in the town.

Overall, it does rely very heavily on one hero unit and it has ways it can be countered even on best case. I'd put it about equal in practicality to the burn plan, from what I can tell.

(Go plan It wuz Dem!)

Greenskins rarely have that sort of discipline, especially considering this is a bit out there. Suddenly most of them are burning horribly is not something a Greenskin is gonna react coldly and logically towards...and that's if they not getting burned.
 
We know local grobi huts burn because the ones in Karag Lune did, and those were built under the same constraints on construction materials. Also, given the huge cavern/tunnel system, I'd expect the caldera to be pretty well drained. Unsure of the overall rainfall levels, but since wells were an attack vector when K8P fell last time, I'd suspect semi-arid at best.

The were made in totally different circumstances, inside a dry cavern, by a different species. A species that famously raises vast numbers of exotic fungus that their surface brethren don't.

The caldera is at the bottom of a ring of eight mountains that are snow covered all year round, so there will always be meltwater pouring down and draining right through where the town is.

That is rather disingenuous. Mainly because I have not at any point said that setting the fire is instantaneous or trivial to do, merely that with the current state of how sections of the town are abandoned that means that we have relatively easily accessed areas to work in to set our fires. Additionally when I say a "Single point of failure" I am referring to a single point where if things go wrong the entire operation fails, in the Burning Shadow plan it relies on Mathilde being able to cast a Burning Shadow spell on the Citadel's shadow.

Now while I acknowledge that the GM has said it is possible to use Burning Shadow in such a manner, I feel like I should point out that such a usage is almost certainly at the limit of the spell's capabilities and will almost certainly require a roll in order to work properly. As such if something goes wrong there then the entire plan is ruined.

This isn't true for the Fire plan, because while a key part is going to be Mathilde setting the buildings in the direction of the Citadel ablaze, if that part fails that doesn't ruin teh entire plans as other parts of our forces will be using various methods to set the fires. Hence my previous statement, the fire plan has redundancy to it as each successful fire lighting attempt adds to the overall blaze.

Also there are multiple way to light a fire for example some flint to make the initial sparks. Do remember that cannons and handguns are a thing so there should be man portal way to light fires available.

Using a flint to make sparks to light a fire is hard, and you need prepared kindling to light. At each stage you increase complexities and difficulties.

Also, you're assuming that areas near the Citadel will be abandoned and easy to set on fire. What evidence is there of that?

The GM said th plan would work as written. I believe that rules out suggestions that it is outside the normal scope of the spell. The spell says one shadow. The Citadel's shadow is one shadow.

Burning Shadows doesn't work like that, it's more like an acid in how it effects things. Also if the Catapults can do so then adding more fire starting attempts would just make the blaze even bigger at a faster pace.

What you quoted makes no reference to burning shadows setting things on fire. It only refers to the catapult barrage that is part of the plan, so I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here?
 
They're not useless. Hower, I don't agree that this is also not their job. They aren't an offensive unit designed to attack enemy settlements from what I can see. They're intended to scout the countryside above ground, gathering information and murdering the unsuspecting greenskins or skaven they encounter. They're not siege engineers trained in demolition. There was one famous unit of Ranger in the End Times that was a exception as their leader was related to a chief engineer, IIRC, buy they don't exist yet, and the End Times never should.
They aren't attacking a settlement in force... they are sneaking in and lighting stuff on fire. They have flint and steel... they can set things on fire. They can take gun powder in tiny bags and light a ten second fuse and things (like firewood, supply stocks, random piles of things) get set on fire. These are professionals. If you don't know gunpowder tends to burn quite well unless confined and then it explodes. Nevermind just tossing around maltovs cocktails.

They aren't demolishing stone fortifications... they are setting fire to random things to tie up orkish reinforcement anything else is a bonus.

If you can't figure out how rangers can be used in ways that fail to benefit the orks... I can't help you.

Why spend Rangers' lives (at least some are bound to die) and the opportunity cost of Mathilde's time on something we can do much easier, quicker, and better with artillery?
You realize you have to take the Citadel before you can do that... as its is out of range? Seriously, the plan is to cause orks to be to busy and distracted to mob the army.
 
Um. You are all being very vehement, and pretty much addressing objections with assertions. It's a bit volatile esp given we had the thread locked recently based on similar escalations. Maybe a bit more politeness? Please? This doesn't have to be toxic.



We know local grobi huts burn because the ones in Karag Lune did, and those were built under the same constraints on construction materials. Also, given the huge cavern/tunnel system, I'd expect the caldera to be pretty well drained. Unsure of the overall rainfall levels, but since wells were an attack vector when K8P fell last time, I'd suspect semi-arid at best.



I'll grant this is possible, but: normal castings don't cover hundreds of square yards for hours, which is what we need. It's reasonable to expect that even though the GM says we can do it, there will be large penalties related to the sheer volume of magic requires to drive like 100x more coverage than usual.

But I'm most worried about how long we'd need to keep it up.

Plus, vulnerable to turtle formations and advancing behind obstacles. It only impacts stuff it falls directly on, right? Caltrops and artillery will help here, but would need to be targeted to breaking up protective formations rather than targeting chaos in the town.

Overall, it does rely very heavily on one hero unit and it has ways it can be countered even on best case. I'd put it about equal in practicality to the burn plan, from what I can tell.

(Go plan It wuz Dem!)
In regards to the amount of magical force needed, Shadows are where Ulgu comes from, so it is possible that the reason for Burning shadows to have such an immense potential range and being limited to a shadow and the shadows that touch it is that Burning shadows just weaponizes the Ulgu already there, rather than having to move a lot of Ulgu around.

Re turtle formations, these are greenskins, they aren't known for being well disciplined or running for cover when there's a threat nearby and there is a lot of them.
 
They aren't attacking a settlement in force... they are sneaking in and lighting stuff on fire. They have flint and steel... they can set things on fire. They can take gun powder in tiny bags and light a ten second fuse and things (like firewood, supply stocks, random piles of things) get set on fire. These are professionals. If you don't know gunpowder tends to burn quite well unless confined and then it explodes. Nevermind just tossing around maltovs cocktails.

They aren't demolishing stone fortifications... they are setting fire to random things to tie up orkish reinforcement anything else is a bonus.

If you can't figure out how rangers can be used in ways that fail to benefit the orks... I can't help you.

And what do they do when the orcs run them down, chasing the little beacons to identify where they just were they just lit. Ten seconds doesn't let you go far. I spect that the Rangers can start potentially fires on the edge of grobi town. I don't expect the fires to be able to spread far and I expect it to produce a stream of orcs going after them to look for a scrap. If the place was that easy to burn it would already have burned. A stray lightning strike would have ignited it (or an aimed one from Kragg last night IC). Or the skaven would, as they love their incendiaries. Or some scrapping orcs would have kicked a bonfire and sent burning embers everywhere.

You're acting like it's the city equivilent of a firetrap just waiting for a match. That's the single point of failure here, the assumption that the settlement must be highly flammable and just waiting for a fire to start before it will rage out of control and burn down.

You realize you have to take the Citadel before you can do that... as its is out of range? Seriously, the plan is to cause orks to be to busy and distracted to mob the army.

From the catapults? I was under the impression that the issue was that the citadel blocked the line of sight to the approach to the citadel, so it couldn't be used to interdict it. We can fire catapults just fine.
 
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Greenskins rarely have that sort of discipline, especially considering this is a bit out there. Suddenly most of them are burning horribly is not something a Greenskin is gonna react coldly and logically towards...and that's if they not getting burned.

I mean, the grobi method would probably just be trying to stay in the shadow of the front ranks, and push them forward regardless of what they want.

Size/duration is still an open issue. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is not more plausible than just setting fire to the town. Scrambling to 'prove' one or the other won't work is where I see the toxicness coming from.
 
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What ritual magic? A purely normal casting of Burning Shadows is quite than sufficient here. Can people please spreading disinformation about this. This must be the sixth or seventh time I've had to correct this error. It's getting ridiculous.
BoneyM literally stated that the spell would work on the citadel as normal. There's no ritual spell.
Did he? I've went through his posts, and as far as I can see he just said that casting Burning Shadows would work. He never specified way of casting.

Why I believe ritual casting is implied? Because we are speaking of shadow cast by Citadel. I would understand shadow of a boulder. Of a tree. Of a bridge. Hell, even a huge house. But not this, particularly if it's morning and shadows lies long. Used this way, it is city killer. I simply does not believe that using a spell on something orders of magnitude bigger than normal would not be a ritual. How many thousands it could kill?

No, I simply does not believe it is normal casting. Boney was always reasonable in terms of scale of effect as linked to potential risk. Turning normal spell to a city-killer is not reasonable if there are no risks involved. So ritual casting.

Anyway, what boney said exactly was:
But you could Burning Shadows the Citadel. It wouldn't hit those inside, but it would hit anyone approaching it from the caldera until shortly before midday. It would mean delaying the battle until tomorrow morning.

You would need to be physically touching either the Citadel or the shadow it is casting for the entire time you want to maintain the effect.
If I missed any of his posts, where he would plainly state that normal casting is sufficient, please correct me. But this? For me it implies ritual casting being used.
 
The were made in totally different circumstances, inside a dry cavern, by a different species. A species that famously raises vast numbers of exotic fungus that their surface brethren don't.

The caldera is at the bottom of a ring of eight mountains that are snow covered all year round, so there will always be meltwater pouring down and draining right through where the town is.
I find this to be a rather unfair argument since we have seen no indication that there is any difference in how the Greenskins constructed their settlement here. There is no reason for these specific Greenskins, who are no different from the Orcs who held the Gates whom we know used wood, have constructed their settlement any differently.
Using a flint to make sparks to light a fire is hard, and you need prepared kindling to light. At each stage you increase complexities and difficulties.

Also, you're assuming that areas near the Citadel will be abandoned and easy to set on fire. What evidence is there of that?

The GM said th plan would work as written. I believe that rules out suggestions that it is outside the normal scope of the spell. The spell says one shadow. The Citadel's shadow is one shadow.
Just because a plan could work as written doesn't mean that there is not a significant chance that it could fail. Hence why I said using the spell of the Citadel's shadow is likely pushing it's limit and I would not be surprised if it required a difficult roll to accomplish. Not to mention maintaining the spell for an adequate length of time.

Once against I never said that the areas near the Citadel were abandoned, just that sections of the city have been and that it will help facilitate our forces setting the place on fire.
What you quoted makes no reference to burning shadows setting things on fire. It only refers to the catapult barrage that is part of the plan, so I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here?
Sorry misread something of your statement there.
And what do they do when the orcs run them down, chasing the little beacons to identify where they just were they just lit. Ten seconds doesn't let you go far.
The rangers will have far more than ten seconds, there is likely to be far more time between them starting the fire and relocating than that.
 
I mean, the grobi method would probably just be trying to stay in the shadow of the front ranks, and push them forward regardless of what they want.

Size/duration is still an open issue. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is not more plausible than just setting fire to the town. Scrambling to 'prove' one or the other won't work is where I see the toxicness coming from.

That formation wouldn't work, as the shadow is cast from above, not in front so can only be blocked by assuming a turtle formation with tower shields. I hardly need to say that orcs don't have tower shields and don't use turtle formations.

The QM has literally confirmed that the Burning Shadows plan would work as written (their words), and the most you will concede is "I'm not saying it's impossible". What does the QM have to do to make you believe them?

Did he? I've went through his posts, and as far as I can see he just said that casting Burning Shadows would work. He never specified way of casting.

Why I believe ritual casting is implied? Because we are speaking of shadow cast by Citadel. I would understand shadow of a boulder. Of a tree. Of a bridge. Hell, even a huge house. But not this, particularly if it's morning and shadows lies long. Used this way, it is city killer. I simply does not believe that using a spell on something orders of magnitude bigger than normal would not be a ritual. How many thousands it could kill?

No, I simply does not believe it is normal casting. Boney was always reasonable in terms of scale of effect as linked to potential risk. Turning normal spell to a city-killer is not reasonable if there are no risks involved. So ritual casting.

Anyway, what boney said exactly was:

If I missed any of his posts, where he would plainly state that normal casting is sufficient, please correct me. But this? For me it implies ritual casting being used.

As I said above, he literally said the plan I posted would work as written.
 
That formation wouldn't work, as the shadow is cast from above, not in front so can only be blocked by assuming a turtle formation with tower shields. I hardly need to say that orcs don't have tower shields and don't use turtle formations.

The QM has literally confirmed that the Burning Shadows plan would work as written (their words), and the most you will concede is "I'm not saying it's impossible". What does the QM have to do to make you believe them?



As I said above, he literally said the plan I posted would work as written.
Please give us a quote since I think that we might be understanding what was said differently and it will be easier if people can look at the exact post.
 
As I said above, he literally said the plan I posted would work as written.

Most of the plans would work, the vote is about managing risks and costs.

[X] Plan Go Commando

Is the safest in my opinion. I think we're demolishing the ramp up to the citadel entrance on the goblin-town side.
 
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