Somehow I never realised these were temporary activations, given 10 Int and 6 Cha to then have it ripped away by a timer, how sad :(

Re: Mel so far

I did not find her reasonable at all, she was proven wrong and tried to prevent herself losing any opportunity at diplomacy and even then she needed to backtrack from insults and accusations, she's still a filthy fanatic and that whole "should we expect the Red God to tolerate this" just shows how much of a problem she is, his will is everything but any reasonable being would tolerate anything after such a victory.
 
For an example let's look at Joffrey, a character that is justifiably universally hated for what he did. Let's look at where the motivations for those actions came from for a moment. His 'father' was a drunk who exercised his royal power mostly in his arbitrary capacity to ignore the affairs of state and so he came up with the idea that to be a strong king is to wield discretionary power, strongly often violently. let's not forget the incident with the pregnant cat which while deeply disturbing certainly was not solved with a beating rather than an explanation. Even his first truly monstrous act, hiring an assassin to kill Bran was motivated by Robert saying 'the boy would be better off dead'. Joffrey was trying to please his 'father' in his own deeply warped way.

On the other side let's look at Cersei a woman driven by extreme paranoia and narcissism, an inability to even see people outside her family as anything besides enemies and tools. Yet she was pretty much the only person in Joffrey's life to give him unconditional love and affection. Is it any wonder he took after her too?

Again this does not excuse the character but it makes him something more than a cardboard cut-out of a villain that the audience can boo when he is around and cheer when he dies.

So this Joff didn't roll snake eyes and was born mentally deranged in a serial killer way thanks to incest fucking? I mean maybe it's just me but in the books/show he certainly came across that way.
 
@Arimai @Snowfire both of you are incorrect. Gods have actual stats in 3.0, and thus can be killed. They're usually level 30 or so, and typically don't have "I am omnipotent effects" beyond Alter Reality (and that isn't really absolute, even within their realm).
No, the real problem is that they have abilities like "I know what you will do 30 days in advance and I'm a full caster on top of a very tough chassis AND I have 12 solars as bodyguards".

If you don't have the book, read threads like these. Killing Gods is far, far beyond us at present. But it is technically possible. It's even easy if you're willing to enter TO territory (use Supernatual Teleport Through Time to get around the "they'll kill me two days before I attack" problem, use Dweomerkeeper + Circle Magic + Leadership cheese to get spells with impossible saves and that bypass SR, abuse Shapechange for defensive abilities...).
 
@Arimai @Snowfire both of you are incorrect. Gods have actual stats in 3.0, and thus can be killed. They're usually level 30 or so, and typically don't have "I am omnipotent effects" beyond Alter Reality (and that isn't really absolute, even within their realm).
No, the real problem is that they have abilities like "I know what you will do 30 days in advance and I'm a full caster on top of a very tough chassis AND I have 12 solars as bodyguards".

If you don't have the book, read threads like these. Killing Gods is far, far beyond us at present. But it is technically possible. It's even easy if you're willing to enter TO territory (use Supernatual Teleport Through Time to get around the "they'll kill me two days before I attack" problem, use Dweomerkeeper + Circle Magic + Leadership cheese to get spells with impossible saves and that bypass SR, abuse Shapechange for defensive abilities...).
:(

Anyway. It's really hard man.
 
So this Joff didn't roll snake eyes and was born mentally deranged in a serial killer way thanks to incest fucking? I mean maybe it's just me but in the books/show he certainly came across that way.

It's the nature vs nurture debate and there is something to be said for Joff's cat dissecting ways being the sign of some sort of innate neurological condition, but without being screwed by his upbringing I suspect he could have come out much better.
 
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So you're saying they can nearly OD on combat drugs regularly and flush it from their system instantly without help from a mage.

Nice. Now have Tyene design a customized cocktail of it.
Not quite. They still get the side-effects of the drugs, namely ability drain.
However, we can toss in a potion of Lesser Restoration to cure that.

Then they can OD on all the combat drugs.
 
Yes, if you have a similar level of power. Which we don't. Heralds of divinities clock in at CR 30 or higher. Actual divinites are basically Outsider Invulnerable outside of their Realms, where they can warp reality around you into a pretzel. If you want to defeat a divinity in its Realm, you need to have a Divinity of equal (greater is better) strength backing you to prevent don't feel so good endings. And even then, you'd need to destroy the Realm to have a hope of killing the God - which has a better than even chance of not working in the long run if they have enough worshippers.

Defeating a deity is so much easier done on the material plane with cultural drift and religous reform. Trying to fight them head on is stupid.
And what you're wrong is that this game isn't like your Horde Thief.

In D&D the rule is basically "it can be done, if you dedicate the resources and time for it," and that's true for the simple fact that if the GM have an habit of saying "no you can't because I say so" then he will quickly find himself with a sudden lack of players.
 
Part MMDCXXVI: Of Masks and Mirrors
Of Masks and Mirrors

Fifteenth Day of the Eighth Month 293 AC

"You speak of masks, and that makes me wonder..." you break off, looking around at the barren wastes and time-worn stone. "No, I think if we are to argue theology, we should not stand around in the desert. If I may?" At the priestess' cautious nod you utter twice-seven syllables, by will and wishcraft raising a circle of benches from the sands, wide enough that you all may sit, leaving Melisandre ample room all around. Even so as you sit down next to Lya at the edge of your circle of friends you carefully position yourself closest to the red-robed priestess, for what might seem spontaneous decision is just as well thought-out as the first spell in battle of life and death, for in a sense this too is such a battle. If words should fail then a fight is all-but-certain to follow.

Looking across the small circle of sand you are glad to see no greater suspicion reflected in the priestess' eyes, perhaps even a small relaxation of her shoulders. She does not see it as a ploy. So it is with some small hope that you begin: "Masks, you said. A curious way to put it, for while a mask might be used to hide one, it can also help to become many. Though that might just be my years in Braavos talking, I can not in good conscience think that everything hidden is wicked. I have met my fair share of people donning many masks, seeking to aid and spread wisdom from behind them instead of donning them to poison and deceive just as often as the other way around."

"There can be... much use in the shadows that the Flame casts, this I have learned in Asshai, though hard was the learning," she replies after a long heavy silence. "Though it seems to me that what you speak of is more a kin to light being scattered by a prism of glass, each true in its own right but only a part of the whole. It is given to mortals to see but a single ray of that glory I fear."

"And now, forgive the comparison for it is only for form's sake," you temporize. "You sound a bit like a septon, only they are of a more optimistic mind than that."

"I have heard the words of septons in Oldtown and I have found them more hollow than hopeful," she counters, a sneer in her words. "They pray to a mirror and call it god, and it is not even a mirror of Myrish Glass, but cheap and warped, twisting the fears and suspicions of the common man."

"That is not to say I agree with everything the septons preach, a fact which I am certain those of them who call me 'blood dragon' and 'dark sorcerer' are all too aware of." Your smile invites her to reciprocate, perhaps even to commiserate.

"What part of their beliefs do you then wish to speak of?" Melisandre asks, her tone perfectly neutral, though there is a spark of curiosity in her eyes.

"You see, the Westerosi pray to the Seven Who Are One, claiming that there is but one god with seven aspects in the shape of people and their roles. They too reject the notion of other gods, claiming them demons and false idols, much like you did just now. Malarys here," you motion to the mage-priest, "used to pray to Balerion who has gone silent after the Doom. Nowadays he prays not to any god at all, but to Order itself. And this Order listens. Every day, he is granted power, not by any god, spirit, or demon, but by this idea of order."

"No god or spirit that he knows of," the priestess interjects, willfully leaving out the notion that Malarys could be praying to a demon. A hopeful sign if ever you have heard one, though not so much as the flash of uncertainty that passes over her features. She turns to address Malarys directly. "Such a being may answer your invocations for its own reasons."

"It could," the Essarian sorcerer allows to your surprise. "But if this theoretical patron answers me consistently for whatever I choose to do with my power so long as I stay true to my ideal of order, then what but an Ideal of Order should I call it?"

"Perhaps there is some hidden purpose to it, some deed foretold." You would not precisely call the answer grasping at straws, but it is certainly heading in that direction.

"And perhaps I have no free will at all before almighty fate, but if that is the case than all my wondering is pointless," Malarys snorts. "Should that be true then I have not even the choice between the darkness and the light that your own holy texts promises."

"So," you interject, taking a deep breath before the closing thrust of your argument... and possibly the beginning of battle. "We are agreed that a mortal cannot conceive the fullness of a god's mind. How could he? A god who forged all of this, not just this world, but the Dance of the Spheres, the ordering of the outer realms, the river of souls connecting all of it. How could a single mind contained by mortal flesh comprehend a consciousness so vast it could make all of this? But then again, it's hard to imagine even the vastness of the infinite planes in our minds. So what if there is one god responsible for all of this, but he is so vast that he needs those masks to be comprehensible to a mortal? Masks like the Smith or the Maiden, like the Father... like R'hllor. What if we are all looking into a imperfectly made mirror, seeing both ourselves and the light or darkness beyond?"

Not a breath is heard in the stillness that follows, even the fitful desert wind hissing over the land. At some point as you had been speaking the priestess' hand had gone to the talisman at her throat, not as a weapon but an anchor, you realize. It burns as a red star between her pale fingers, the light almost seeming to drip like blood. She starts to shiver as though against some dreadful cold though the desert is as scorching hot as it had ever been. "Even... even if you are right, some masks are truer than others, closer to the truth at the heart of it all." She sounds like she is trying to persuade herself as much as you.

What do you say?

[] Write in


OOC: Viserys can tell Melisandre is in a very delicate position emotionally and might tip over in several wildly different ways, hence giving you another vote.
 
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[X] Azel
Whatever. I'll just ignore her existence.
Loot away, people,
 
Give those boys some K-10.
I was thinking to use this:
Ruk Tar – d20PFSRD
Keif, Wyrm – d20PFSRD
Mumia – d20PFSRD
and two potions of Lesser Restoration

Costs 165 IM per charge and gets them:
+2 Str
Immunity to Pain
25 + 1d8 Temp-HP
+2 to saves against sleep and paralysis
+2 to saves against all spells, curses, disease and fatigue

Pricey, but it's just the right mixture for when you are headed for a wrestling match with a Barbed Devil.
 
And what you're wrong is that this game isn't like your Horde Thief.

Ok, that's quite enough. This is not the first time you've made this comparison, without any basis either. As far as we are aware, actually killing Gods is totally beyond us at this juncture, and forcing them to change - as we're doing with the Seven and the Red Faith - is so much easier. The D&D rule that I know from my time playing and GMing is that "If it has stats, you can kill it."

If a God does not have stats, then it's in the area of Plot fiat that requires the DM to allow the tools necessary to kill it to exist. If DP holds to either path is currently uncertain, although he's said it should be possible to alter cosmology outright with enough time and effort. So changing/killing gods is probably possible, as I said it was. It's just insanely difficult. Oh, and you know that stuff about Divine Realms? That's d20srd text. The stuff about them being effectively Summoned Outsider invulnerable to actual death unless they're in there? Also srd material. Exactly how that's interpreted isn't up to me, but it isn't up to you, either, and your consistent sniping about how I've chosen to frame things in HT is getting really wearing when none of those metaphysics are involved in my discussions here.

If you want to actually make an argument, fine, do so. Or we can, you know, actually discuss the issues you seem to have decided exist between us as a result of an omake series that I've been having a lot of fun writing and - by all appearances - the thread has been enjoying too. Up to you.

But you can leave this bullshit at the door.
 
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