The info to rapidly identify, block, and remove Singers mind control seems like a pretty great short term thing?
Yeah no, I don't think it's going to be that quick and easy. It's probably going to take years to reach that level, and in the meantime we have no info on the HoH's infiltration of us or our neighbors.

Knowing how the tech works in theory doesn't really prove anything to our neighbors about the HoH infiltrating them after all and theory is not always easy to put in practice.
 
I don't think the Singers are ever going to give up plotting to take over the Federation and the other civilizations around them. They are to much invested in the idea that the Harmony is the best possible society.

It also justifies their actions. The Federation shows that the things they did, that many are uneasy about, may not have been necessary.

Here is a society that manages to keep harmony (hah) without Gods. They were certain, at first, that the Federation was just like them, after all...

That said, it opens up a path. How many Singers are amenable to another way, and how many are fanatics? How many would get tired of micromanaging in response to a partial public disclosure?

For that matter, even the fanatics - how much are they willing to risk or harm the 'mutes', given the purpose of their ideology?

EDIT: You know, for all of the casual mention of a few of the Federation's secret places and some of the (public) threats... how much does the Harmony really know about the things the Federation (especially the Explorer Corps) has encountered? I mean, the hair-raising eldritch-horror stuff.

For all of their ominous nature, they very much come across as a "young, energetic and naive" power. I mean, more so than the Federation itself - although I'm not sure offhand exactly how old they are chronologically in comparison. There's the ideology of the Harmony being the old path to protection against a cruel and hostile universe, but their traumas (that I'm aware of, at least) seem to be... relatively small-scale and mundane. Once you get past their shaky origins, their history seems mostly about scheming and infiltrating neighboring powers, with setbacks aplenty but not a lot on the galaxy-shaking threats.

Sure, at least one Singer was there for an extra-dimensional invasion (although I'm not sure how much data the Harmony got from that incident), but they don't seem to be very well-equipped to deal with the Star Trek Twilight Zone on the whole.

I mean, beings that would fit even better their self-described label of 'gods', horrors from alien times and places, threats to spacetime, beings of pure energy, mirror universes...
 
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Hey, I just made a post... that I deleted like a couple minutes later. What I wanted to say isn't worth making anyone here upset. I should have stopped myself before making the post in the first place, but I didn't. I'm sorry, and basically I want to apologize, even if most of you won't know what that post was. :(

If you have my previous post quoted, please don't repost the quote.
 
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Yeah, I don't think the theory behind their psy-borg tech is going to be very helpful in the short term, atleast not when compared to full details on their infiltration of other polities. In the long run, we can probably technobabble a solution either way, even if less potent.

[X] Plan Cheap and Dangerous and Federation
[25kq] -Full details of planned operations in Felis space.
[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Licori space.
[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration in Amarki space.
[05kq] -Full records of the Harmony's actions in regards to their intervention on Kelowna.
[05kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Laian space.
[05kq] -Current Harmony Military deployments.

[X] Plan Infiltration and Past Crimes
-[25kq] -Full details of planned operations in Felis space.
-[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Nessic space.
-[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Licori space.
-[10kq] -Full records of the Harmony's actions when they intervened in Padani space.
-[05kq] -Full records of the Harmony's actions in regards to their intervention on Kelowna.

[X] Plan Protect the Vulnerable, Remember the Victims
-[25kq] -Full details of planned operations in Felis space.
-[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Nessic space.
-[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Bolian space.
-[10kq] -Full records of the Harmony's actions when they intervened in Padani space.
-[05kq] -Full records of the Harmony's actions in regards to their intervention on Kelowna.

[X] Plan We should have expected the Inquisition.
-[25kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration in Felis space.
-[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Amarki space.
-[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Bolian space.
-[10kq] -Full records of the Harmony's actions when they intervened in Padani space.
-[05kq] -Full records of the Harmony's actions in regards to their intervention on Kelowna.
 
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[X] Plan Good End.

One solid example of an intervention and the cover-up and enough data on the infiltration tech to speed up everyone being able to check for themselves.

Horizon is going to be in full coverup, so the faster we can counter them, the better. Otherwise, even if we have good data, compromised people might stop it or alter it before it gets out to distant world's.
 
[X] Plan We should have expected the Inquisition.
-[25kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration in Felis space.
-[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Amarki space.
-[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Bolian space.
-[10kq] -Full records of the Harmony's actions when they intervened in Padani space.
-[05kq] -Full records of the Harmony's actions in regards to their intervention on Kelowna.

Petition to rename this to We need the Inquisition.​
 
Horizon is going to be in full coverup, so the faster we can counter them, the better. Otherwise, even if we have good data, compromised people might stop it or alter it before it gets out to distant world's.
It doesn't matter whether they try to cover it up or not, with the data about their infiltration attempts in our hands their attempts at diplomatic takeovers are as good as finished.
 
Folks- with confirmation that the Singers can use (some) non-Harmony implants to influence their wearers, this has grave implications for the Chenkethi.

On a more serious note, it would have been interesting to see the interaction between the Singers and the Eternal Empire. Probably for the best that that never reared its ugly head.
 
Folks- with confirmation that the Singers can use (some) non-Harmony implants to influence their wearers, this has grave implications for the Chenkethi.

On a more serious note, it would have been interesting to see the interaction between the Singers and the Eternal Empire. Probably for the best that that never reared its ugly head.
Conspiracy mode engaged:
Garita was taken over by a Singer, and launched the EE campaign as an attempt to weaken the UFP and show it helpless in a crisis, allowing the HoH to move in and save everyone at the last minute, while also giving them a chance to find the UFPs singers in our pattern of response to the invasion.
 
Can those of you voting to include the records of Padani intervention explain why that one is a priority?

Because honestly, I think the ISC themselves would speak against it. They'd say, "We already know what we need to know about the past, and we'd prefer you focus on actionable intelligence to support the fight today."
 
Can those of you voting to include the records of Padani intervention explain why that one is a priority?

Because honestly, I think the ISC themselves would speak against it. They'd say, "We already know what we need to know about the past, and we'd prefer you focus on actionable intelligence to support the fight today."
They already know, but now there's proof we can show the rest of the galaxy?
 
Conspiracy mode engaged:
Garita was taken over by a Singer, and launched the EE campaign as an attempt to weaken the UFP and show it helpless in a crisis, allowing the HoH to move in and save everyone at the last minute, while also giving them a chance to find the UFPs singers in our pattern of response to the invasion.
The Cardassians are a HoH plot! There are no Cardassians! Just Horizonites in cheap costumes!
 
Let us pray this is dealt with before the Borg decide to come over and see what the latest batch of races has come up with. I don't want to know what Borg nanites+ Singer powers would look like.
 
[X] Plan Good End.

We get to keep the summaries so we have places to start on all the other options, but in my opinion, if we try to start running down the other leads without fully understanding how the Singers are interacting with our society then we are going to find that our investigations run into interference and obfuscation at every turn.

Better to understand our opponent first, and then work on unravelling their plans.
 
[X] Plan We should have expected the Inquisition.

We don't NEED the full tech info to fight Harmony infiltration. We have a couple identified Mutes with us, and we should be able to spot the implants now that we know what we're looking for. And if we get some of the current activity files, we'll have full lists of infiltrated people to look over and study.

IMO, the tech option is the one we want if we're going on the offensive right away, the one for answering "how do I kill Singer?" as quickly as possible. For countering their current efforts and using actual diplomacy, the nation-based options seem the most reliable to me.
 
The problem with Plan Good End is that it gives up the diplomatic fights. At best we have rumor to show to those peoples. We also don't have the tools to uncover Singer interference in the border powers as they'll immediately move to cover it up. Given the nature of the revelations I don't see that as viable. On the other hand we do have the tools to uncover the psytech. Basically, anything but this plan. It is missing the forest for one very large tree.

[X] Plan Cheap and Dangerous and Federation
[X] Plan We should have expected the Inquisition.
 
[X] Plan Cheap and Dangerous and Federation
[X] Plan We should have expected the Inquisition.
Adhoc vote count started by Rhinohunter on Jan 2, 2019 at 6:29 PM, finished with 76 posts and 21 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Rhinohunter on Jan 2, 2019 at 6:56 PM, finished with 84 posts and 24 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Rhinohunter on Jan 2, 2019 at 10:53 PM, finished with 115 posts and 35 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Rhinohunter on Jan 3, 2019 at 12:35 AM, finished with 128 posts and 41 votes.
 
[X] Plan Protect the Vulnerable, Remember the Victims
-[25kq] -Full details of planned operations in Felis space.
-[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Nessic space.
-[15kq] -Full details of Harmony infiltration of Bolian space.
-[10kq] -Full records of the Harmony's actions when they intervened in Padani space.
-[05kq] -Full records of the Harmony's actions in regards to their intervention on Kelowna.

Fans of "We should have expected the Inquisition," can I ask you to consider switching the Licori for the Bolians?That's basically the only difference between my plan and yours.

I think we have a reasonable chance of dealing with the mess in Licori space by normal means. Among other things, the Licori are less computer-dependent than most species, the Harmony's biggest single node was probably destroyed with the embassy fire, and the entities most likely to serve as Harmony catspaws (the corporate wolfpack and House Rithe) have already been outed by earlier actions taken by Captain Zara and the Courageous.

By contrast, I don't think we have a hope of stopping Harmony absorption of the Bolians without specifics on how the infiltration has proceeded, because our contacts with the Bolians are tenuous and we have reports that Harmony progress with them is very far along.


Hi there, Jacqueline Appel at Starfleet Communications here! I've heard some of y'all are confused by that Yalla reference, so I pulled up the relevant logs for ya!
Adele Chatsworth:

"Good work, Miss Appel. Now, if you could please come with me, I have a large creature I'd like you to help me subdue; I gather that's something of a specialty of yours."

[smiles very, very thinly]

Yeah no, I don't think it's going to be that quick and easy. It's probably going to take years to reach that level, and in the meantime we have no info on the HoH's infiltration of us or our neighbors.

Knowing how the tech works in theory doesn't really prove anything to our neighbors about the HoH infiltrating them after all and theory is not always easy to put in practice.
THIS.

Theoretical knowledge doesn't translate directly into practical knowledge. And these implants can't be literally invisible, nor can the Singers themselves, once we have a wealth of information on a huge number of their puppets.

[] Plan Good End.

One solid example of an intervention and the cover-up and enough data on the infiltration tech to speed up everyone being able to check for themselves.

Horizon is going to be in full coverup, so the faster we can counter them, the better. Otherwise, even if we have good data, compromised people might stop it or alter it before it gets out to distant world's.
The Harmony has extensive tentacles in many nations. I'm pretty sure that we don't just automatically get the benefit of all those other nations spontaneously overcoming their own infiltration problems if we DON'T vote for the information that would describe them. I suspect the Felis, Bolians, and so on will remain infiltrated if we can't tell them where to look, at least until several years of time have passed, by which point they may be firmly under Harmony control.

Can those of you voting to include the records of Padani intervention explain why that one is a priority?

Because honestly, I think the ISC themselves would speak against it. They'd say, "We already know what we need to know about the past, and we'd prefer you focus on actionable intelligence to support the fight today."
Several answers.

1) This provides intelligence of how the whole affair looked from the Harmony side of the line. You can learn a tremendous amount from knowing how the other side perceived a conflict. This is why, for example, an enormous amount of new scholarship on World War Two that greatly altered the way we now think of the war took place only after the end of the Cold War and the opening up of a lot of Soviet archival files to Western scholars.

2) This is the only confirmed instance we have of someone actually successfully purging a Singer from their own computer systems. Knowing as much as we can about what happened and when it happened would be very helpful.

3) We'll gain a lot of insight into how the Harmony reacts to a serious crisis where one of the nations they're trying to puppet detects what they're doing, tells them to stop, and then starts going drastically off-script. Given that we intend to bring about exactly this outcome on a very large scale, that insight is going to be useful.

4) Our obtaining this data and sharing it with the Padani will help us gain their trust further, just as our sharing the data on modern Harmony ships after the Eye of Chaos incident got them to trust us with the fact that the ISC had ever had a past encounter with the Harmony at all. A close working relationship with the ISC is going to be important to resolving this crisis, because we need both to ensure that the ISC reaction is... managed... and to ensure that we have the most solid possible balance of military power on our side in case things go south.

And the touring Cardassian boy bands are just a cover for Singers to stick their noses in things. It all comes together!
I mean yes, but it's the small-s kind of singers, not the large-S kind. :p
 
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