But it's fine when it's 10 Starfleet tanks?
We are the good guys, and our 10 tanks are split over 4 races (to reuse the example), so, 2.5 per race. And that's enough to do shit with the minor races, but not enough to decide to visit a Horizon capital world. The 42 capitals? If they decide to visit Licory space for the ratification, and then to pay a visit to Sol, being unprepared would be rather costly.
 
I'm pretty sure this is meant to be the consequences of not going to war with Cardassia. And the consequences of not giving up on the Gorn and Ittick-ka. One way or another, we're supposed to end up blocked in by other superpowers, and our choice is how it happens.
 
And just something because I don't trust my memory:
Wasn't the Horizon ambassador declaring that there will be a Horizon expeditionary fleet helping the Chrystovians, asking for logistical support which we, to the best of my knowledge, didn't deny?
And in the broadcast, wasn't that effort canceled because 'insufficient logistical support'? Or do I miss crucial pieces here?
 
Starkin and others in the region (SF included) will monitor and prepare, but what are you gonna do? Tell them to leave Felis/OSA/Licori/Bolian space or you'll shoot?

Yes. Like I say, from the information we've been given, it looks like the HoH have committed an act of war.

Not an annoying act, or an act that is ambiguous and can be misconstrued by paranoid people, but an act which any sane government would look at and go "yup, the HoH started a war there".

I mean I'm not sure what the ask is. You want SF to attack a Horizon tender over Ikeigenoi? I don't think even the Hawks would support that.

Yes. Absolutely that.

This is exactly what the US was willing to start a nuclear war over when Soviets appeared in Cuba and why the Soviets would have been within their rights to do the same when the US based missiles in Turkey (they didn't because they were too weak to stand a chance in that war, but the point is they certainly had the right to respond to such an extreme threat appearing in a heretofor neutral state on their border).

Given the Kingon-Federation wars which led to the deaths of trillions, I don't see how the same principal doesn't apply here, unless there is some mechanism that the UFP and HoH are both party to that mean we can be sure their fleet isn't an assault fleet.

Though I have no idea how such a mechanism would operate.

But it's fine when it's 10 Starfleet tanks?

Again, correct me if I am wrong, but I am not aware of Starfleet ever deploying such a massive force.

This. Also, how could those minor powers possibly be alright with a fleet many times their own operating in their space?! That laughs on the very concept of sovereignty so hard that it's not even funny.

Right. This fleet is so big that it is bigger than the entire militaries of some of the local great powers. The HoH can do diplomacy like the Soviets did in the Baltic states in 1940.

fasquardon
 
This whole thing kind of comes out of left field, if this was supposed to be an example of the HoH going full soviet then ok but it seems like the Qms do not see anything wrong with what the HoH are doing?
 
And just something because I don't trust my memory:
Wasn't the Horizon ambassador declaring that there will be a Horizon expeditionary fleet helping the Chrystovians, asking for logistical support which we, to the best of my knowledge, didn't deny?
And in the broadcast, wasn't that effort canceled because 'insufficient logistical support'? Or do I miss crucial pieces here?
That logistical support was for operating as far out as Chrystovian space. They quite obviously can operate near their own border.
Again, correct me if I am wrong, but I am not aware of Starfleet ever deploying such a massive force.
Unity + Beyond just last year comes fairly close.
 
And now I wonder how the Cardassians would react if we sent all of our task forces into the GBZ, citing increased humanitarian efforts.
 
[X] Focus on the Licori and OSA

If the OSA are that much of a low hanging fruit, wouldn't it be conceivable that we could knock them out and then move to contest the Bolians before things get completely turned over?

Regardless, a Harmony-allied Licori state seems unacceptable to me on a strategic level. The supply lines for the Bolians are long enough that it's not nearly as big a threat, like the Dawiar were for the Ashalla Pact once upon a time.
 
That logistical support was for operating as far out as Chrystovian space. They quite obviously can operate near their own border.
... You totally missed the point. They canceled the mission to help the guys getting invaded citing logistical issues, although they would have gotten that support from the Federation. Instead they sent 42 capitals and swarmers 'to increase their Outreach', after they scolded us when we didn't unitarily remove our task force.
I seriously get 'since 4:45h, we are firing back' here.
 
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... You totally missed the point. They canceled the mission to help the guys getting invaded citing logistical issues, although they would have gotten that support from the Federation. Instead they sent 42 capitals and swarmers 'to increase their Outreach', after they scolded us when we didn't unitarily removed our task force.
I seriously get 'since 4:45h, we are firing back' here.
You misunderstand. They didn't get that support, because the thread voted not to commit a Task Force for Chrystovia, and supporting a Harmony TF against Cardassia would've been an act of war.
Given the Kingon-Federation wars which led to the deaths of trillions, I don't see how the same principal doesn't apply here, unless there is some mechanism that the UFP and HoH are both party to that mean we can be sure their fleet isn't an assault fleet.
I mean, y'all seriously considered allying with the Harmony against the Cardassians. Harmony-UFP relations aren't great, but they're not bad. This isn't 1962.
 
But it's fine when it's 10 Starfleet tanks?
We usually don't drop enough ships on any one species' doorstep to conquer that species. Mrr'shan and other heads of Beyond were splitting their efforts among about three or four different species. And except for extreme weakling cases like the low-tech Laio navy, at no point did we have anywhere near as much strength in or around the space as any one of them, as that polity's own national navy. More typically, no one planet was getting visited by more than, like, an explorer and a couple of frigates. Which is sizeable but not a conquest fleet.

By contrast, I'm pretty sure that if the Harmony wanted to conquer the Licori they could do that with a quarter of this fleet that they're deploying. Maybe even before the Licori had a chance to shout for help meaningfully.

Yes. Like I say, from the information we've been given, it looks like the HoH have committed an act of war.

Not an annoying act, or an act that is ambiguous and can be misconstrued by paranoid people, but an act which any sane government would look at and go "yup, the HoH started a war there".

Yes. Absolutely that.

This is exactly what the US was willing to start a nuclear war over when Soviets appeared in Cuba and why the Soviets would have been within their rights to do the same when the US based missiles in Turkey (they didn't because they were too weak to stand a chance in that war, but the point is they certainly had the right to respond to such an extreme threat appearing in a heretofor neutral state on their border).
Uhhh, I wouldn't say it's that bad.

The thing about the Cuba/Turkey Missile Crisis is that those missiles were less than an hour away from the capitals of the countries in question. They represented an escalation because of how easy it would be to use them for a decapitation strike.

The Harmony fleet doesn't have this going for it, it would still need weeks of flight time to reach our core territory and couldn't just push a button and wipe us out like a few hundred nuclear missiles in Cuba could do to the United States.

So this isn't a Cuban Missile Crisis level escalation. It's more like the kind of squabbles you saw in the 19th century over possession of this or that fortress or colony. Some of which COULD provoke war, but usually wouldn't unless the other side was already spoiling for a fight.

Right. This fleet is so big that it is bigger than the entire militaries of some of the local great powers. The HoH can do diplomacy like the Soviets did in the Baltic states in 1940.

fasquardon
Now THIS is true...
 
I mean, y'all seriously considered allying with the Harmony against the Cardassians. Harmony-UFP relations aren't great, but they're not bad. This isn't 1962.

How does "we have convincing evidence that the Harmony attempted genocide against our other friends in the ISC" influence that? Like, given what we know of their past actions we should probably be going onto war footing in expectation of a Pearl Harbor opener or a sudden outbreak of "peacekeeping."
 
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This kind of just sent the HoH and SF relations down hill like at this point even against the Cardassians I would not be willing to work with the HoH when they show that they will do something like this hell this is something the Cardassians would do.
 
How does "we have convincing evidence that the Harmony attempted genocide against our other friends in the ISC" influence that? Like, given what we know of their past actions we should probably be going onto war footing in expectation of a Pearl Harbor opener or a sudden outbreak of "peacekeeping."
But - would they do that while they have such a good time with the Amarkians? That would certainly sour these new relations ...
 
But it's fine when it's 10 Starfleet tanks?
Yes. Because 10 is not 1000.

Starfleet does not deploy more ships into a sovereign nations territory then their own fleets without a very good reason. Such as the Biophage, war, the minor power having like 3 ships, and so on. All good enough reasons for the sovereign nation to allow our ships entry (because HEEELP!!!, war, not like we can do ANYTHING if they decide to do something we do not want them to do, etc.)

And there is a rather large difference between a big fleet operating nearby and inviting several times your own ships from a power that you are not friends (affiliates, or, more likely, allies) with to operate in your space. Much less when said ships are not a ragtag band whatever ship can do diplo the best and instead are a complete warfleet.

Unity + Beyond just last year comes fairly close.
While a war was going on. Where one of our allies, an affiliate, and someone we were at war with recently were fighting.

Total number of ships to the number of capitals in those reinforcements.

Corvettes.

Reinforcements.
 
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For comparison, Beyond currently has 19 ships, almost half of them (8) frigates. Not counting the many, many corvettes, these reinforcements alone have more then double all of our ships there that aren't garrison in capitals.

I would seriously start asking around for the possibility of UFP mobilization right about now.

Thanks.

Once again... we did similar stuff like that in the past without our neighbours preparing for the endtimes. Hell, we even did so in exactly the same region. So unless you argue that the Federation sending massive fleets that far outclass any regional power is okay but other people doing the same isn't I really don't think you have a very good argument. More than any other faction it was the Federation that normalized sending massive task-forces on "diplomatic" missions into disputed territory so this is a problem entirely of our own making.

We also tend to mobilize/collect massive fleets and send them from one region to another with little warning or indeed any mobilization or the like so once again there seems to be a serious double standard going on here.

In view of what Enerael has found, no, we've not done anything remotely similar to this.

A task force of 11 cruisers or larger and 8 frigates is nothing like this HoH juggernaut.

I mean it's a mobilization in one sense of the word. But HoH has not entered into the mechanical definition of mobilization, ie increased income, ship reduction times, etc. This is a major mobilization of ships but not a major mobilization of the entire Harmony for war. Nor are they making hostile actions or even approaching the Fed border.

Them not mobilizing their economy doesn't tell us the HoH have peaceful intentions though.

They may figure they can hold off until mobilizing the economy later. Or they may figure they can achieve their goals without mobilizing (for example, they may believe they can do a smash-and-grab where they invade, sterilize some key planets, smash up some fleets and infrastructure, then sign a peace with the Federation with some UFP territorial losses - if they assume that the political situation in the Federation will be such than there will not be a stomach for a longer war), or the goal is to push the UFP back by salami tactics, moving in to neutrals with fleets big enough to annihilate them and saying "be our friend or else".

So the military mobilization is threat enough that we can't look at this and go "we could lose trillions of lives if we trust these guys".

fasquardon
 
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Looks like things are getting interesting! I wonder how long the Harmony can keep this up?

[X] Focus on the Licori and Bolians

We are, of course, conducting diplomatic pushes on all four next quarter.
 
Oh, I think it's quite likely the Horizon is just using military pressure to increase diplomatic pressure and get all 4 races to ally with them (sweet talk combined with a 'look at our nice helpful fleet we bothered to sent out without stressing our economy; incidentally that would be a part of what you would see if you were our enemy like the Federation seems to be keen on getting'). While spreading discord in the Federation.
 
Just to make one thing clear, I do not believe that the GMs meant for this to be a prelude to an attack or something, but any sane government would consider this an act of war, or very close to it.

Also the minor powers. WHY in the name of Q would they allow entry into their territory to a warfleet several times larger than their own (even after diving the number of HoH ships by 4) from a non allied power to... conduct diplomacy?

???
 
I think the main point is that Horizon isn't saying "be our friends or die" to any of the powers. That might be implicit if you're being a bit paranoid, but none of the powers being courted get that impression or are operating under the assumption that if they join with the Federation they will be annihilated.

Edit: also please consider how massively hypocritical it would look to be mad about the Treaty of Celos and then also say "no, Harmony...... stop"

Like what divides a Federation warfleet from a Horizon one? Size?
 
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