To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Briefvoice said:

I'm constantly vacillating between treating the HoH as villains and wondering why we treat them as villains.

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I mean, we do have the whole credible evidence of attempted genocide thing...

But yeah, the Harmony taking over the Licori would be inarguably better for the Licori people than their current illegitimate and unjust regime. We could try to reform them ourselves but it would take decades of concerted effort and the time to start would have been just after we put Lugis on the throne, and those resources could be put to better use uniting nations against fascist aggression (never again Chrystovia 2323). Instead we spent time knife-fighting the Harmony instead of combating the injustice and suffering in the Arcadian empire.

Plus, in the event that they try to pull something shady, the Licori's strategic positioning also makes us perfectly positioned to discover it and intervene, and with a corridor of transit for HoH ships through our space we'll be gaining a lot espionage-wise.

[X] Focus on the Licori and OSA

fasquardon said:

Yanno. There's a reason why mobilizing the military is an act of war on Earth. That force, if it keeps going through the Federation border could gut the Federation if the Federation doesn't mobilize for a counter-attack. The initiative is a powerful thing and when you are talking about someone getting the initiative with a fleet of planet destroyers...

Are the QMs aware of just how threatening the HoH are being?

fasquardon

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This is also a good point. That is a very large force. Even our largest task forces haven't been heavy enough to steamroll clear through to the capital of a major power without countervailing deployment.

So on some level we HAVE to treat this as requiring countervailing deployment, because the Harmony has behaved in ways in the past that make it at least conceivable that they could say "lol attacking you now," or more likely seize forward positions and claim systems from us and dare us to do anything about it.

fasquardon said:

Yanno. There's a reason why mobilizing the military is an act of war on Earth. That force, if it keeps going through the Federation border could gut the Federation if the Federation doesn't mobilize for a counter-attack. The initiative is a powerful thing and when you are talking about someone getting the initiative with a fleet of planet destroyers...

Are the QMs aware of just how threatening the HoH are being?

fasquardon

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There is no military mobilization from Harmony and they are respecting your borders.

Also if they did bust through like Hannibal Buress they have to go through Beyond, the Starkin, the Tauni and Laio, the Ked Peddah... it would be not great, but it's not an exestential threat.

[X] Focus on the Licori and OSA

I strongly recommend everyone switches to the licori and the OSA it gives us the least problems allowing us to get the OSA faster while not loosing as much ground on the licori. While its is unfortunate the Bollians feel like the one faction that we can afford to give the HoH.

[X] Focus on the Licori and OSA

Might switch to Licori/OSA. The ISC might be able to hold on with the Felis, if they don't have to worry about anything else, while the Bolians were in absolutely the worst position from the start. So I decided to do some math, based on the data @UberJJK has been producing. The brand new HoH task force, if operating at about the same level as our opposed task forces generally have been, can make around 174 points of progress at a time. This is in addition to the two task forces they already have operating. The ISC has been doing absolutely terrible, making 10 points of progress against the HoH last quarter, while we made 55. If we assume the new force splits its focus evenly, it can make around 44 points of progress against each polity we're concerned about. This would leave the ISC task force well in the negatives, while we would be struggling to make any more than about ten points of progress (total) per quarter.

If the ISC can double their forces deployed, they're still going to be in the negatives with their latest performance, but that's been getting slowly better.

Ultimately, I'm going to have to say that the OSA has to be a priority. If we can get that locked down, we can move on to other polities.

[X] Focus on the OSA and Felis

I feel confident that the ISC can hold the Felis down until we get the OSA done with at which point we can move on to them. The OSC and Licori is the best plan because there is a good chance by the end we will have three of the factions when every other plan we might only get two.


There might need to be an alert sent out to those who have already voted letting them know there is a new option to pick.

Iron Wolf said:

There is no military mobilization from Harmony and they are respecting your borders.

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*blinks* OK. You don't think 42 cruiser or above and uncounted swarmer craft isn't a mobilization?

If the UFP did that, it would be an incredible massing of our fighting power.

As to respecting our borders, honestly, this amount of force, we just can't take their word for it. We have to prepare for war unless there are tripwires we're not aware of.

Iron Wolf said:

Also if they did bust through like Hannibal Buress they have to go through Beyond, the Starkin, the Tauni and Laio, the Ked Peddah... it would be not great, but it's not an exestential threat.

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Hm. If those forces can't combine fast enough they could be defeated in detail. How fast can they all muster together and how much warning could we get if the HoH did cross the border?

And do they even have enough combat power to hold of the HoH fleet combined? As I remember the combat system in this game quickly amplifies small advantages.

fasquardon

fasquardon said:

*blinks* OK. You don't think 42 cruiser or above and uncounted swarmer craft isn't a mobilization?

If the UFP did that, it would be an incredible massing of our fighting power.

As to respecting our borders, honestly, this amount of force, we just can't take their word for it. We have to prepare for war unless there are tripwires we're not aware of.

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Once again... we did similar stuff like that in the past without our neighbours preparing for the endtimes. Hell, we even did so in exactly the same region. So unless you argue that the Federation sending massive fleets that far outclass any regional power is okay but other people doing the same isn't I really don't think you have a very good argument. More than any other faction it was the Federation that normalized sending massive task-forces on "diplomatic" missions into disputed territory so this is a problem entirely of our own making.

We also tend to mobilize/collect massive fleets and send them from one region to another with little warning or indeed any mobilization or the like so once again there seems to be a serious double standard going on here.

So.

Considering that we have a Harmony Influence tag in the negatives before, and the fluff we have seen, I consider it almost certain that it would have to reach -300 for us to lose them. At least.

If we win OSA, it frees up HoH ships to work on other targets. It does not help us in this diplowar. It might be more beneficial to avoid locking the OSA down so that the HoH keep trying to fight the Continuous Diplopushtm​.

I suspect that the HoH cant keep so many ships in action on our border for long. There must be a significant cost to this.

OSA: Diplopush. One a year will either win them for us, or stalemate a lot of HoH ships for quite a while. If the HoH gets them, the borders shift some. It's not that big a deal, and all of our progress will have to be countered by their own efforts, so its not throwing years of diplo into trash.

Felis: Also affiliates, and thus open to the awesome power of a CDs, though it will take almost about 1.5 years for it to start working on the tag. There is also the ISCs effort. We can make the HoH work for the Felis. Map wise, losing them would hurt, so long as the ISC is friendly it should be acceptable. It would upset the ISC a lot though.

Licory: A tough nut to crack. Not our friends, but the HoH has to deassholify them first, same as us, before they can afford to lock them down with an alliance or membership, which will take a while. And they can't exactly toss bioweapons and stuff around when we are right there, watching. How much losing them would hurt... hard to say, and depends a lot on if the get the Bolians (in which case their ships would have to go the long way between the KP and Breen, not to mention our expansion there through the Dreamers), the OSA (that could get ugly for the KP), or none (haha **** you HoH and enjoy the fruits of your labour).

Bolians : I really don't care. Next to no strategic benefits to fighting for them that I can see, Licory aside. Losing them hurts us none (except that it would make absorbing the Licory viable for the HoH). It might actually hurt the HoH more, having an island that they have to protect next to the Romulans and Breen.

[ ] Focus on the Licori and Bolians
Arguably wastes resources on the Bolians, but this is the best way to catch all the Pokemon, or at least prevent the HoH from catching any. If our goal is to reduce the HoHs Diplowar efforts maximally, this is the way.

[ ] Focus on the Licori and OSA
This would drop the Bolians and allow us to concentrate on the Licory. Would cost us the OSA CD though, which is worth a lot of HoH ship time.

[ ] Focus on the OSA and Felis
We could lock down OSA (trivially easy, doesnt help us in this diplowar) and the Felis, and then make a TF to work on the Licory (and the Bolians, if people insist). With any luck, HoH will have to clear some of our Licory tags for us for them to progress, though I wouldn't count on it. This would cost us ISCs help, and the tying down of HoH fleets with 2 CDs, which would make the second part FAR harder.

[ ] Keep the Task Force split
Haha no. We would lose the Licory and Bolians in a hurry.

Will think some more on this, undecided between [ ] Focus on the Licori and Bolians and [ ] Focus on the Licori and OSA currently.

fasquardon said:

*blinks* OK. You don't think 42 cruiser or above and uncounted swarmer craft isn't a mobilization?

If the UFP did that, it would be an incredible massing of our fighting power.

As to respecting our borders, honestly, this amount of force, we just can't take their word for it. We have to prepare for war unless there are tripwires we're not aware of.



Hm. If those forces can't combine fast enough they could be defeated in detail. How fast can they all muster together and how much warning could we get if the HoH did cross the border?

And do they even have enough combat power to hold of the HoH fleet combined? As I remember the combat system in this game quickly amplifies small advantages.

fasquardon

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I mean it's a mobilization in one sense of the word. But HoH has not entered into the mechanical definition of mobilization, ie increased income, ship reduction times, etc. This is a major mobilization of ships but not a major mobilization of the entire Harmony for war. Nor are they making hostile actions or even approaching the Fed border.

Starkin and others in the region (SF included) will monitor and prepare, but what are you gonna do? Tell them to leave Felis/OSA/Licori/Bolian space or you'll shoot?

[x] Focus on the Licori and OSA

Erandil said:

Once again... we did similar stuff like that in the past without our neighbours preparing for the endtimes. Hell, we even did so in exactly the same region. So unless you argue that the Federation sending massive fleets that far outclass any regional power is okay but other people doing the same isn't I really don't think you have a very good argument. More than any other faction it was the Federation that normalized sending massive task-forces on "diplomatic" missions into disputed territory so this is a problem entirely of our own making.

We also tend to mobilize/collect massive fleets and send them from one region to another with little warning or indeed any mobilization or the like so once again there seems to be a serious double standard going on here.

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Maybe? My impression was that our taskforces were much smaller.

I think the largest force we deployed was the invasion of Licori space, which the Licori did indeed gather their ships to meet.

What is the largest taskforce we've gathered?

fasquardon

[x] Focus on the Licori and OSA

Erandil said:

Once again... we did similar stuff like that in the past without our neighbours preparing for the endtimes. Hell, we even did so in exactly the same region. So unless you argue that the Federation sending massive fleets that far outclass any regional power is okay but other people doing the same isn't I really don't think you have a very good argument. More than any other faction it was the Federation that normalized sending massive task-forces on "diplomatic" missions into disputed territory so this is a problem entirely of our own making.

We also tend to mobilize/collect massive fleets and send them from one region to another with little warning or indeed any mobilization or the like so once again there seems to be a serious double standard going on here.

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I think that you do not grasp the scale here. For all of Beyonds size, it probably could not conquer a HoH major world if it tried, and they were spread out over a LOT of space. Plus Beyond is very clearly specced for diplomacy, not war.

A HoH expedition fleet or several though? Pretty identical composition to a war fleet. Also their cruisers can be science or warships, you can't tell. Funny that.

Iron Wolf said:

Starkin and others in the region (SF included) will monitor and prepare, but what are you gonna do? Tell them to leave or you'll shoot?

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Frankly? Yes.

If a state has enough of an army to conquer much of your land and possibly punch straight to your capital doing ANYTHING (but possibly disaster relief) at your borders without a lot of treaties, agreements and trust between you, than that is very nearly, if not clearly, an act of war. That they are not on your land doesn't matter, you have the right to complain (possibly violently) if someone parks a few thousand tanks right beyond your border.

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fasquardon said:

What is the largest taskforce we've gathered?

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For comparison, Beyond currently has 19 ships, almost half of them (8) frigates. Not counting the many, many corvettes, these reinforcements alone have more then double all of our ships there that aren't garrison in capitals.

I would seriously start asking around for the possibility of UFP mobilization right about now.

Enerael said:

That they are not on your doesn't matter, you have the right to complain (possibly violently) if someone parks a few thousand tanks right beyond it.

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There is no Cuban missile crisis here because we are all friendly with each other, right? Oh, the part where the relief mission for the Chrystovians was cancelled because of 'not enough logistical support' although we got told 'we will sally forth regardless what you do' - I'm sure the ambassador just misspoke. Such things happen, after all, right?

I mean I'm not sure what the ask is. You want SF to attack a Horizon tender over Ikeigenoi? I don't think even the Hawks would support that.

They don't operate on your border, they operate in states on your border. If the OSA or Felis or Licori or Bolians don't mind their presence there's not much you can do.

Iron Wolf said:

I mean I'm not sure what the ask is. You want SF to attack a Horizon tender over Ikeigenoi? I don't think even the Hawks would support that.

They don't operate on your border, they operate in states on your border. If the OSA or Felis or Licori or Bolians don't mind their presence there's not much you can do.

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He's saying that the Sowjets parking a few dozen divisions and few thousand tanks in then neutral Poland and Czech might irritate the British, French and Americans, causing them to get to a hightened readiness in case the tanks don't stop at the borders.

There is a good chance at least the Licori will not like this many ships next to them, like the HoH has to take some sort of penalty for this massive deployment if it was a few ships adding up overtime that would be one thing but this frankly is unprecedented and by the Licori standards and almost certainly the others must seem very worrying. If I line 40 ships on your border with diplomats inside sure they can say they are here to negotiate but they are still 40 ships and no faction will be okay with that.

Iron Wolf said:

I mean I'm not sure what the ask is. You want SF to attack a Horizon tender over Ikeigenoi? I don't think even the Hawks would support that.

They don't operate on your border, they operate in states on your border. If the OSA or Felis or Licori or Bolians don't mind their presence there's not much you can do.

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MTB said:

He's saying that the Sowjets parking a few dozen divisions and few thousand tanks in then neutral Poland and Czech might irritate the British, French and Americans, causing them to get to a hightened readiness in case the tanks don't stop at the borders.

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This. Also, how could those minor powers possibly be alright with a fleet many times their own operating in their space?! That laughs on the very concept of sovereignty so hard that it's not even funny.

Enerael said:

This. Also, how could those minor powers possibly be alright with a fleet many times their own operating in their space?! That laughs on the very concept of sovereignty so hard that it's not even funny.

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Now, evenly split into four (one per race), it's just 10.5 capitals (and swarmers) per race ... think how much these ships can help to rescue spaced kittens!

Rhinohunter said:

There is a good chance at least the Licori will not like this many ships next to them, like the HoH has to take some sort of penalty for this massive deployment if it was a few ships adding up overtime that would be one thing but this frankly is unprecedented and by the Licori standards and almost certainly the others must seem very worrying. If I line 40 ships on your border with diplomats inside sure they can say they are here to negotiate but they are still 40 ships and no faction will be okay with that.

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But it's fine when it's 10 Starfleet tanks?

Rhinohunter said:

There is a good chance at least the Licori will not like this many ships next to them, like the HoH has to take some sort of penalty for this massive deployment if it was a few ships adding up overtime that would be one thing but this frankly is unprecedented and by the Licori standards and almost certainly the others must seem very worrying. If I line 40 ships on your border with diplomats inside sure they can say they are here to negotiate but they are still 40 ships and no faction will be okay with that.

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Lugis Tartresis: So...this warfleet approximately the size of Starfleet itself, you're telling me it's not here to support the partisans you've been backing that want to overthrow me and execute my entire family? Fascinating.

like I could even see 20 ships being fine but worrying but 40 is so over the top there is no way any faction could possibly see this as just a diplomatic force they are not stupid, which has to inure a penalty of some kind for the HoH.