To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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Yes, we almost certainly will, but I frankly don't think we'll be able to keep the OSA or Felis either, if we don't focus on them. For every ship we have in Task Force Beyond, the new HoH force can deploy two, all of which are around the same quality as our very best P-ships.
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The Felis are vital as a base for Corewards exploration and to prevent the HoH from bordering the ISC.
How exactly would the Federation be able to critique that when nowadays it routinely does the same? I mean if you look from the Harmony side I am pretty sure we were the ones who started deploying massive fleets in border regions without warning (and certainly without any such grand declaration) to further our influence there... Hell of all the powers we know of the Federation is probably the one who ignores the "sovereignty" of other peoples space the most since we happily send task-forces pretty much anywhere we are not at war with.
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The ISC will still be opposing Harmony progress on the Felis; they may not do a great job but one thing we've seen is that opposed task forces take a while to get the job done, even against mediocre opposition. I'm not sure what will happen on the OSA, but they are like one quarter of diplopush away from closing the [Harmony Influence] tag. And we're going to be voting for that diplopush. If there is any place at all where we can not concentrate our forces on that specific group, and still win, it's going to be with the OSA.
Also, frankly, the Licori are a salient inside our space; the OSA isn't. If the OSA does turn against us that's bad but at least it doesn't place us in the strategic position of having an enclave of Federation-hostile territory, with great power protection, fully enclosed within our space. Which would be a bad thing.
The only numbers we actually have are the tag progress numbers. The OSA tag progress is so close to 'in the bag' that a single bump will send it over. The Felis progress tag is considerable and the ISC will be working very hard on it; they may not gain ground there but they're going to be trying very hard to not lose ground.
Unless you pull completely imagined victory conditions for the Harmony out of a hat, that are in no way directly supported by the evidence, we have a good chance of resolving the Harmony Influence tags on those nations or at least not outright losing them to the Harmony faster than we can react.
The Bolians and the Licori present us with much tougher nuts to crack, and if we don't at least try to work on them quickly the Licori will be able to easily seize a very large advantage. Especially since we were explicitly told that a large Harmony force is headed straight for the Bolians.
The thing is, this force is big, but it's not infinity big. It can't insta-roll up all four prospective targets in a single year. If there's anyone it can't roll up in a year, it's the OSA, and just voting to diplopush them wins us considerable progress on their tag whether a task force opposes them or not. Likewise, the Felis are the one place that's going to get contested by someone whether we send ships there or not.
If we concede having a Harmony-dominated Licori salient, we're conceding an unending series of problems that will come out of that salient for the next several decades. It is much worse for us than losing the OSA, the Felis, or both of them put together.
No, you have no idea.
There is zero evidence for the theory that the Harmony can take over and diplomatically annex the OSA with a fingersnap when we are 5/6 of the way through a tag we have on them. That is a concern that is just now being made up. We "don't know" in the sense that it has not been explicitly spelled out to us in words of two syllables or less, but if the status of our Horizon Influence tag isn't a guideline as to how much or little influence the Harmony has in OSA space, then the tag and diplomatic systems are so broken that nothing matters anymore.
Note how the Harmony did NOT manage to make significant progress within OSA space from the recent war crisis- hardly what you'd expect if they still had much influence left there.
Have you noticed how frustratingly slow our task forces' progress is? It takes years to grind through a tag 300 points deep, even with a huge fleet.
This isn't a vote on "you automatically get to keep the easy two if you pick them, but you automatically lose all four if you pick the hard two."
This is a vote on "do you even contest the hard two, given that you have a reasonable chance of holding onto the easy two for at least long enough to figure out a reinforcement strategy?"
The Licori are vital as a base for us not having random interference with (now federalized) core Federation members. And to prevent the Harmony from bordering the Romulans, which may not be as bad as having them border the ISC, but still isn't good.
That's a much more direct Federation interest than the one you describe.
That assumes the Harmony end up with a non-continuous border. I fully expect that we'd see something along the lines of:
Eh Thuir seems to think he can match one of the two splinters and he is one of our best Admirals so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt there.
That might be the case. However of the two choices I would say the Licori and Bolins are the strategically more important choice. Plus as existing Affiliates we are in a better position to try and hold onto the OSA/Felis, or at least sell them as bitterly as possible, compared to the Licori and Bolins.
Not really? We can still explore Corewards up through the Gabriel Sector and past the Shanpur quite easily. Now the HoH and ISC bordering each other is a bit of a problem but it's not a direct threat to multiple Federation Member races like losing the Bolins or Licori.
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
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Given we know our influence tags can go into the negative, common sense would indicate that the HoH win when we reach -300/300, much as we win when we reach 300/300. Otherwise it's not a competition, it's a race where we can't see the opponent.
I'm finding it very difficult to make the case that the Licori becoming aligned with the Harmony of Horizon wouldn't be "the greatest good for the greatest number".
The Arcadian Empire is toxic and terrible and every day it goes on has people in literal slavery. The Harmony of Horizon would end that. Billions of Arcadians would lead happier, healthier lives. Now you'd make the case the that the Federation would want to reform them as well... but the Harmony of Horizon is quite simply better at that kind of reform because they're less respectful of allowing members to keep their individual cultures and characteristics. A HoH-aligned Licori would seem reform more quickly than a Federation-aligned one would.
And against that we balance, what, not wanting the HoH to have some strategic bases more inside our interior than we would like?
The Arcadian Empire is toxic and terrible and every day it goes on has people in literal slavery. The Harmony of Horizon would end that. Billions of Arcadians would lead happier, healthier lives. Now you'd make the case the that the Federation would want to reform them as well... but the Harmony of Horizon is quite simply better at that kind of reform because they're less respectful of allowing members to keep their individual cultures and characteristics. A HoH-aligned Licori would seem reform more quickly than a Federation-aligned one would.
And against that we balance, what, not wanting the HoH to have some strategic bases more inside our interior than we would like?
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That assumes the Harmony end up with a non-continuous border. I fully expect that we'd see something along the lines of:
I mean sure we have seen non-continuous borders before but given what we've seen on Harmony and their ship reserves I'd fully expect them to lay claim to that inter-joining space and there would be nothing we could do about it.
That is a completely bizarre claim that makes no sense. They don't have any colonies in that area even.
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Basically, I think we can no longer win a complete victory. It's true that progress is slow, but this fleet is twice the size of the one we have deployed, in addition to the ones they already have deployed. I don't think we've ever had this much of an advantage over an opposed task force. We don't have the ships to counter this, and we won't get them. We get a total of 30 ships next year, and most of the best ones are going directly into the EC. We've basically drained the member worlds dry on high-P options. So, then, the question is, do we get the easy ones, or on the hard ones? I say the easy ones, because that has a better chance for partial victory.
Actually, I think that Harmony and their referendum-based system would take even major changes like that in a stride - otherwise, their system wouldn't work very well.
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I see this as the gms putting their foot down and saying no you can only have two of them, it was pretty obvious they were never going to let us get both of them unfortunately, if we somehow defeat this next time they will just have the HoH dump all their ships onto the next round and all the tags will increase to 500 tags.
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
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- Murica
What even is your argument? First it was, we don't have the ships to do both. That's an entirely valid point. But then it became the HoH could be minutes away from signing a formal alliance with the OSA and we wouldn't know despite having no indications the system works that way. Now you're saying that it's a good thing the HoH will get the Licori? Why weren't you advocating for that months ago? We probably could have finished the OSA tag if we hadn't bothered contesting the Licori. It feels like you're just coming up with excuses as quickly as possible and hoping no one looks too closely at any one of them.
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[X] Focus on the Licori and Bolians
the other are much closer to being part of or able to be pushed in our sphere
these 2 are not and i would really hate to lose them.
also if we can get the licori it might help with the gorn seeing they are look at that closely
the other are much closer to being part of or able to be pushed in our sphere
these 2 are not and i would really hate to lose them.
also if we can get the licori it might help with the gorn seeing they are look at that closely
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[X] Focus on the Licori and Bolians
I'm constantly vacillating between treating the HoH as villains and wondering why we treat them as villains.
Alastor Mobius Toth
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Where did they have those ships? Does Harmony have some sort of Star Forge or dimensional displaced shipyard that just allows them to shit out fleet tenders? Because if they're literally emptying out their territory for "biggest outreach ever"....that does have some rather interesting implications. First being that we must have pushed them up against the wall, and they see no other option to compete other than maximum escalation. The second is their choice of action given the circumstances...the Harmony could clearly muster an enormous force, and since they have "the will to act" as they like to call it, they could do anything they'd like...they could give an ultimatum to Cardassia to fuck off and die, but their choice is instead to absorb and secure their own frontiers. Possibly something for FDS to take a look at and weaponize.
What frankly worries me more than frontier peanut gallery however, are the Amaraki. From a Federalist perspective, they are a nightmare waiting to happen, and now the HoH more-or-less want to push that button. Something tells me that we're going to be facing election meddling soon. And a question over whether we want to have an independent Confederacy navy.
Moving that aside for a moment however...
[ ] Focus on the Licori and Bolians
[ ] Focus on the OSA and Felis
I find these choices somewhat annoying, because the most sensible choice would be to split-focus on Licori and the OSA. We can afford to loose the Felis, and frankly ISC loosing it's collective marbles over having a border with HoH is appealing to me. Bolians we can afford to leave; all we'd be loosing is series continuity. OSA...well, frankly, if push comes to shove we could cut them loose, and position-wise, they're not much of a threat to us (border shifts a little towards the HoH or towards us, not a big deal), but we already invested considerable amount of resources, time and energy into them. I'd hate to loose that.
Licori are the most problematic: they represent an obvious strategic springboard further into our territory, and a point of contact between Romulans and HoH. However....their culture makes them by far the most difficult potential member, and salients go both ways - in case of war, HoH would have to seriously invest into Licori defense or loose them quick.
I'd prefer to nab OSA for completion's sake and eliminate Licori salient before it's even born, but...with choices being what they are, I'm tentatively leaning towards focusing on OSA and Felis. I may be convinced out of it, but right now I think we shouldn't put our trust in diplo rolls and the ability to "hold the fort". If we're getting close to affiliating both of them, we need to press our advantage now, secure them and look to the homefront.
[X] Focus on the OSA and Felis
What frankly worries me more than frontier peanut gallery however, are the Amaraki. From a Federalist perspective, they are a nightmare waiting to happen, and now the HoH more-or-less want to push that button. Something tells me that we're going to be facing election meddling soon. And a question over whether we want to have an independent Confederacy navy.
Moving that aside for a moment however...
[ ] Focus on the Licori and Bolians
[ ] Focus on the OSA and Felis
I find these choices somewhat annoying, because the most sensible choice would be to split-focus on Licori and the OSA. We can afford to loose the Felis, and frankly ISC loosing it's collective marbles over having a border with HoH is appealing to me. Bolians we can afford to leave; all we'd be loosing is series continuity. OSA...well, frankly, if push comes to shove we could cut them loose, and position-wise, they're not much of a threat to us (border shifts a little towards the HoH or towards us, not a big deal), but we already invested considerable amount of resources, time and energy into them. I'd hate to loose that.
Licori are the most problematic: they represent an obvious strategic springboard further into our territory, and a point of contact between Romulans and HoH. However....their culture makes them by far the most difficult potential member, and salients go both ways - in case of war, HoH would have to seriously invest into Licori defense or loose them quick.
I'd prefer to nab OSA for completion's sake and eliminate Licori salient before it's even born, but...with choices being what they are, I'm tentatively leaning towards focusing on OSA and Felis. I may be convinced out of it, but right now I think we shouldn't put our trust in diplo rolls and the ability to "hold the fort". If we're getting close to affiliating both of them, we need to press our advantage now, secure them and look to the homefront.
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@OneirosTheWriter
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Actually, @Alastor Mobius Toth makes a good point. Is there any chance of us getting this as a "pick the ones you want" approval vote, with the top two candidates getting the nod, the way we'd do it if this were, say, an intelligence REPORT vote? It seems way more in keeping with the overall character of the decision being made here if we actually get to choose two, instead of just arbitrarily having to pick which pair we focus on. Especially when the IC information has given us no clear reason for why the answer shouldn't be "Licori and OSA" or for that matter "Bolians and Felis" or "Bolians and OSA" or "Licori and Felis."
If both we and the Harmony are vying for influence to reform their society, it will end up reformed in fairly short order. The main difference is whether we want a Harmony-style reform in which everything Licori-oid gets overwritten by any means necessary and the result is a nice little We Love Big Brother populace smiling cheerfully and glassily at us a short distance from Betazed... or whether they get overwritten in a way that doesn't lead to that outcome.
Also frankly if I had to pick which two to get, I'd want the Licori and Bolians for spatial and strategic reasons.
On top of which, if we don't just completely bleeping ignore the entire past history of our relations with these species up to this point and pretend it's just a game of "pick two of four" as if they were four apples on a shelf in the supermarket... Well, again, the OSA is of all the four polities, the one the most likely to sign up with us on its own due to the exhaustive effort we put in diplomancing them earlier in the decade, plus our efforts to resolve the recent war without major civilian casualties. And the Felis are, of all the four polities, the one that has a neighboring superpower saying "okay, we've got this."
Although the ISC may frankly be expecting us to cave to the Harmony at this point, given that we kiiinda caved to the Cardassians a few months ago.
@AKuz
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@Leila Hann
Actually, @Alastor Mobius Toth makes a good point. Is there any chance of us getting this as a "pick the ones you want" approval vote, with the top two candidates getting the nod, the way we'd do it if this were, say, an intelligence REPORT vote? It seems way more in keeping with the overall character of the decision being made here if we actually get to choose two, instead of just arbitrarily having to pick which pair we focus on. Especially when the IC information has given us no clear reason for why the answer shouldn't be "Licori and OSA" or for that matter "Bolians and Felis" or "Bolians and OSA" or "Licori and Felis."
They're very likely to claim transit rights. Either they claim a corridor of space that wraps clear around our frontier (probably in 3D we can go over/under it, but it's still there)... Or they claim a corridor through our space.
The reason the Licori remain terrible is because we've done basically nothing about the tags that involve the Licori being terrible.
If both we and the Harmony are vying for influence to reform their society, it will end up reformed in fairly short order. The main difference is whether we want a Harmony-style reform in which everything Licori-oid gets overwritten by any means necessary and the result is a nice little We Love Big Brother populace smiling cheerfully and glassily at us a short distance from Betazed... or whether they get overwritten in a way that doesn't lead to that outcome.
The Harmony has a known track record, when facing 'obstinate' polities that don't want to join its party, of doing things like seeding bioweapons in their space. It did exactly that to the ISC a hundred years ago. It did, or came very close to doing, things on that level to the Tauni fifty years ago. Who's to say it won't do that to us in the TNG era? Giving them easier access to our core territory could have very unpredictable and undesirable effects, depending on how their next outburst of narcissistic rage expresses itself.
I don't think the QMs are going to arbitrarily railroad us around like that, because that would be blatantly abusive QMing and this particular vote choice would be a very passive-aggressive way of communicating "no you can only have two."
Also frankly if I had to pick which two to get, I'd want the Licori and Bolians for spatial and strategic reasons.
On top of which, if we don't just completely bleeping ignore the entire past history of our relations with these species up to this point and pretend it's just a game of "pick two of four" as if they were four apples on a shelf in the supermarket... Well, again, the OSA is of all the four polities, the one the most likely to sign up with us on its own due to the exhaustive effort we put in diplomancing them earlier in the decade, plus our efforts to resolve the recent war without major civilian casualties. And the Felis are, of all the four polities, the one that has a neighboring superpower saying "okay, we've got this."
Although the ISC may frankly be expecting us to cave to the Harmony at this point, given that we kiiinda caved to the Cardassians a few months ago.
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[X] Focus on the Licori and OSA
The Bollians are a complete write-off and the ISC can hold down Felis.
The Bollians are a complete write-off and the ISC can hold down Felis.
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Thing is, we don't really have alot of ships we can reinforce Beyond with, can we? So if we drop the OSA and Felis now, all our progress is going to be wiped out during the next year in favor of stalemating with the HoH over the Licori and Bolians. Even with Diplopushes and the ISC TF, that won't completely staunch the bleeding. And sending a few more ships next year.... well, that isn't going to turn around the situation when we're fighting over 4 polities.
But the OSA and Felis are close to getting locked down and when that happens, Beyond can move on to the Licori and Bolians. Sure, we'd start at a disadvantage, but we can concentrate all our efforts on only 2 polities, 3 at most if we don't lock down the Felis, a far better scenario.
But the OSA and Felis are close to getting locked down and when that happens, Beyond can move on to the Licori and Bolians. Sure, we'd start at a disadvantage, but we can concentrate all our efforts on only 2 polities, 3 at most if we don't lock down the Felis, a far better scenario.
The HoH are splitting their fleet between two areas, OSA/Felis and Licori/Bolians. If we split between, say, the OSA and the Licori, we're facing 2 HoH TF's, not one. It would be the same result as picking the 'Keep the Task Force split' option
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I would like to have been given the option to focus on the Licori and the OSA which seems like the best of both worlds after we complete the OSA harmony tag we could switch it to the Felis while still keeping ground with the Licori. This way we only run the risk of loosing one instead of loosing two.
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I could understand saying "no Licori/Felis or Bolian/OSA or Felis/Bolian choices," and so on, simply because those powers are physically far enough apart that it would be a very extreme division of resources. The task force couldn't operate as a single unit if scattered across two polities that far apart.
But I cannot understand why, from an in-character standpoint, Thuir cannot simply concentrate his ships in what was already Task Force Unity's old stomping grounds from last year, and most of Task Force Boldly's zone of influence from years before that. And to do this while deciding to write off the Bolians (who are outside his original mission statement anyway) and the Felis (who the ISC is covering, more or less).
It seems like an extremely artificial mechanical dictate to me.
EDIT: Nevermind
Yanno. There's a reason why mobilizing the military is an act of war on Earth. That force, if it keeps going through the Federation border could gut the Federation if the Federation doesn't mobilize for a counter-attack. The initiative is a powerful thing and when you are talking about someone getting the initiative with a fleet of planet destroyers...
Are the QMs aware of just how threatening the HoH are being?
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