Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

What is cooking the books if its not deceit? The person doing so is lying to anyone trying to audit them. Hence, four die bonus when attempting to discern lies. How could detecting lies not help with politics? Resist mind control? Here is an example: Enchanter "you want to attack your allies". Do you? No you don't. That is a lie he just told you.

Instead you say reroll for those with 4 positive dots is much more impressive. That is our character, Bai, and Zhengui. That is it. Even our mother isn't 4 dot. Our three biggest friends outside of Bai aren't 4 dots. 4 dots is apparently stupidly hard to achieve. And since long term we won't be with Bai its pretty much going to be our spirit(s). That's it. If it was 3 dots or 2 dots it would be much more worth it, but we have seen no indication that will be the case.

Edit: Actually a better suggestion example would be "your allies are conspiring against you" or the like. I didn't say full mind control there are a lot of types of mental influence that are less than full domination that being able to discern the truth would help with.
Mostly because it says "against lies" and not "against all mental effects and attempts at deception".
Having a bonus to detect bullshit thrown at your face doesn't make you navigate the Empire's legal and/or commercial system any better.
Just as +sneak dice doesn't give you extra defense against a hammer to the face.

As for the 4 dots, we've had Meizhen at that level for at least half a year, considering the timescales we're going to work on forward it's entirely possible to get all our hypothetical spy-teammates/minions at that level over the next years of military service with/under CRX. Assuming Li Suyin and/or Gu Xiulan passes we have a good chance of hitting 4 dots with them next year.
Heck, just having it for our spirits is already a decent boon.
 
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iirc we traded her AM for AC, so she has both of those. Assuming she wasn't too much of a bitch to Han at the time, it's even probably she also has AS. As for whether or not she has trained them, and how high, that's unknown.


You recall incorrectly. We traded it to Han for storm. As best as I can tell, he didn't share it with Xuilan.

We shared current with her, since we got it in a trial we took together.


[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.
 
You just told me that I was 'talking out of my ass' without saying a damn thing in support of it except for 'feels like you're reaching' and 'feels insincere'.

So what am I supposed to do? Convince you otherwise when you say you don't care? What would the point be? You don't care.

So yes. A little sad.
Yes, I don't care. I was just a little annoyed about how you pressed the point on the thematic importance of argent mirror in a response to my post saying I didn't care. I could have just said you were 'talking out of your ass', but I felt like it needed more bite to it as the post you were replying to already showed my disinterest in the theme.

Am I wrong in saying it was insincere though? When you hastily paste some story blocks together and try to sell something so generic as self realization, it's going to sound forced unless you happen to be secretly Shakesphere.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.
 
Of those, which is related to 'Know Thyself'? Darkness? Nope. Wind? Would rather run away. Water? Maybe; water is reflective, after all, but it moves, unlike the stillness of a Lake. Moon? Perhaps. Ever-changing, yet with a constant, ordered pattern, the Moon is all of its phases at once. Music? Possibly, if mostly in the context of 'what music can you play as an immortal would'.
That just means your proposal is even worse.

A Domain ability isn't something you just pick up as an exclusive and discrete component, they are supposed to be inclusive and congruent components of a greater whole. Your argument that Ling Qi should add yet another theme to her dissonant and incoherent abilities utterly flies in the face of what a Domain should be.

Like, my ideal Domain for Ling Qi would be a fortress of respite and comfort -- all her Domain abilities and Arts would be centered on making her family completely inviolate to all forms of harm. Future Arts to add to her Domain would be TRF for hard defense and vitality (so that they can't be hurt, or at least can't be hurt permanently), and maybe Arts like FVM and PLR to create field effects that drive their enemies away (so they aren't even in the way of harm in the first place). Our current build of tanky debuffer and field control means that we can progress Ling Qi's Arts and toward my ideal Domain without having to add to our current build direction.

So, without ephemeral and useless imagery, how are you imagining squaring Ling Qi's current Home Domain with your proposed Self-knowledge Domain? How will that develop into a coherent theme? How are you going to turn Ling Qi's Art suite into something that supports that; what combat strategy do you think that suite will support? Are you going to argue vociferously for more Arts to attain a specialty in anti-illusions? Make Ling Qi into a perfect Cai spymistress and avoid combat?
 
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[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.

I'm annoyed about it, but I've been convinced to change.
A Domain ability isn't something you just pick up as an exclusive and discrete component, they are supposed to be inclusive and congruent components of a greater whole. Your argument that Ling Qi should add yet another theme to her dissonant and incoherent abilities utterly flies in the face of what a Domain should be.
Mostly because of this, but also the rest of the post. But that'd be way too much to qoute.
 
Domain isn't a collection. You don't put something there just because it's handy for everyone. It only works if you have a single theme. I don't see the lies and illusions bonus as fitting with a single theme anywhere near the same way the support friends bonus fits us.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.
 
Honestly, I'd rather not slot AM in our Domain, because the effects are manifesting as perception-focused. This is entirely appropriate for the Art, it is after all a perception art. However, I don't see our Domain focusing on perception, and we have been told that when building a Domain you want to build tall, not wide. You don't want to grab just anything that fits, you want to build towards a specific and coherent whole. Perception is a good focus to have, but I don't see it forming a coherent whole with our other likely selections. Major themes from our other arts are area defense, concealment, and debuffs. We have a little bit of perception from FVM and AE, but they have tertiary thematic focuses on perception, and it's external exploration for both of them.

That said, the fate of this vote is obvious. With that in mind, I'm going with the effect that shares the most in common with our other Arts. To be clear, this isn't a mechanical decision. I'm selecting based on the thematic focus of the relative effects. The area reroll for Ling Qi and close allies more closely matches the expected themes that will present themselves from our other most likely Domain-slotting candidate Arts.

[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.

As an aside, the argument that anyone needs to have a specific other Art in mind for slotting in order to object to slotting AM is unfair and I wish people would stop using it. One can't know what they don't know, don't demand people pull fictional Arts out of their ass. We know we will see other Arts in the coming year, we know there is very likely to be more Art candidates than slots sooner or later, and it's completely reasonable for somebody to merely think AM doesn't make the cut for what they think is acceptable.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.
 
I think slotting perception focused AM in our domain is entirely suitable for Ling Qi.
Afterall, the first thing you do when playing with things like FVM's mists or sneaking around should be to make sure you are not affected by them.
Just like when you play with poison, the first thing you do is have a way to counter them being applied to you.

As an aside, the argument that anyone needs to have a specific other Art in mind for slotting in order to object to slotting AM is unfair and I wish people would stop using it. One can't know what they don't know, don't demand people pull fictional Arts out of their ass. We know we will see other Arts in the coming year, we know there is very likely to be more Art candidates than slots sooner or later, and it's completely reasonable for somebody to merely think AM doesn't make the cut for what they think is acceptable.
And rejecting an Art because it started at red is even more unreasonable. Not only would it mean waiting years to reach a point where we could slot an art that started at green, but we even had WoG, quoted repeatedly, saying it was a non-issue.
Adhoc vote count started by Ayashi on Jun 4, 2018 at 8:45 PM, finished with 62607 posts and 75 votes.
 
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Domain isn't a collection. You don't put something there just because it's handy for everyone. It only works if you have a single theme. I don't see the lies and illusions bonus as fitting with a single theme anywhere near the same way the support friends bonus fits us.
I don't see the perception reroll bonus having as strong of a thematic connection to what we want to be doing with building a supportive domain and establishing a home as the lies and illusion bonus.

If they are with us, why do they need to be watchful? What threat needs to be seen? I'm seeing us as building our domain as a home to grant rest and succor to our allies and family and giving them the ability to better watch for threats while in our "home" doesn't strike me as thematically appropriate.

Contrast that to the bonus against lies and illusions which makes it harder to enter our "home" with deceitful intentions. It allows us to better make a distinction between those who are actually our allies and those who are lying about being allies. One of the most important aspects of a home is the ability to exclude others from it, and knowing who to exclude is important.

The perception of reroll has mechanical similarity, but it seems to do very little to establish a coherent theme other than "we support family and allies" which... is a very weak theme.
 
And rejecting an Art because it started at red is even more unreasonable. Not only would it mean waiting years to reach a point where we could slot an art that started at green, but we even had WoG, quoted repeatedly, saying it was a non-issue.
And I have no issue with objecting to rejections on that basis. You didn't see advancing or defending that argument, did you? I mentioned the one and not the other because multiple people espoused the flawed reasoning without serious rebuttal.
 
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I don't see the perception reroll bonus having as strong of a thematic connection to what we want to be doing with building a supportive domain and establishing a home as the lies and illusion bonus.

If they are with us, why do they need to be watchful? What threat needs to be seen? I'm seeing us as building our domain as a home to grant rest and succor to our allies and family and giving them the ability to better watch for threats while in our "home" doesn't strike me as thematically appropriate.

Contrast that to the bonus against lies and illusions which makes it harder to enter our "home" with deceitful intentions. It allows us to better make a distinction between those who are actually our allies and those who are lying about being allies. One of the most important aspects of a home is the ability to exclude others from it, and knowing who to exclude is important.

The perception of reroll has mechanical similarity, but it seems to do very little to establish a coherent theme other than "we support family and allies" which... is a very weak theme.
I don't really care for either argument you just made. What matters here is where the domain grows. There's no on-theme synergy with a lies and illusion bonus, no room for it to synergize with the rest of our current domain. It doesn't hold any value for how Ling Qi likes to interact with others, when have we ever, ever had a use for detect lies? Your examples are incredibly reaching. Meanwhile it makes seems that the supportive bonus could naturally grow to be more than just perception, going along with the theme of the Mirror it would be helping our friends with the same self-realization that the art provides us. Keep in mind that the domain is going to grow all the way to Violet or Prism or White, wherever we end up. The initial listed bonus isn't really relevant except how it informs on a theme that must weave into every single one of our other domain abilities. And we're expecting arts like TRF or FVM to be the main parts. I can't see the lies and illusions bonus evolving in a synergistic direction. Making it more than a self bonus seems very difficult.

e: Also, art modifications or building custom arts are based on our domain. I think it's much handier to take an art that was already modified into a group thing by our domain, because that means we can build musical AM+ much easier.
 
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[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.

Many of Ling Qi's arts (FVM, SCS, PLR) are focused on obscuring the senses of others. It seems fitting the she herself internalizes the ability to see through others deceptions.
 
Yes, I don't care. I was just a little annoyed about how you pressed the point on the thematic importance of argent mirror in a response to my post saying I didn't care. I could have just said you were 'talking out of your ass', but I felt like it needed more bite to it as the post you were replying to already showed my disinterest in the theme.

Am I wrong in saying it was insincere though? When you hastily paste some story blocks together and try to sell something so generic as self realization, it's going to sound forced unless you happen to be secretly Shakesphere.

In the very same post you said you didn't care about the lesson - which you said was because the Art itself was of the lowest tier, and that's why you didn't want it (which, yes, has since been corrected):

I sincerely do not care at all about the 'lesson' as the art itself is the lowest tier we can get for our domain.

I also think you're greatly exaggerating the value of the lesson as well. 'Know thyself', is some of the most cliche stuff in fiction and I wouldn't at all be surprised if we see dozens of other arts that teach the same. The emphasis you're putting on it feels a bit silly to me.

Note how it doesn't say a damn word about the 'theme', and how 'lesson' is directly tied to how 'low tier' the art was?

I took you to mean that you didn't care about the lesson because you felt the Art wasn't good enough, not that you simply didn't care about the lesson.

And really. 'Generic as self realization?' Damn, you must have let the mass-market morons get to you. Figure yourself out on your own, don't bother with the rest. And 'Hasty'? Is taking twenty five minutes to write a post fast for you, or something? It's a little fast for me, I admit. It usually takes me a lot longer, which means I run into something else someone says and I want to comment on. As seen in figure one, below.

That just means your proposal is even worse.

A Domain ability isn't something you just pick up as an exclusive and discrete component, they are supposed to be inclusive and congruent components of a greater whole. Your argument that Ling Qi should add yet another theme to her dissonant and incoherent abilities utterly flies in the face of what a Domain should be.

Like, my ideal Domain for Ling Qi would be a fortress of respite and comfort -- all her Domain abilities and Arts would be centered on making her family completely inviolate to all forms of harm. Future Arts to add to her Domain would be TRF for hard defense and vitality (so that they can't be hurt, or at least can't be hurt permanently), and maybe Arts like FVM and PLR to create field effects that drive their enemies away (so they aren't even in the way of harm in the first place). Our current build of tanky debuffer and field control means that we can progress Ling Qi's Arts and toward my ideal Domain without having to add to our current build direction.

So, without ephemeral and useless imagery, how are you imaging squaring Ling Qi's current Home Domain with your proposed Self-knowledge Domain? How will that develop into a coherent theme? How are you going to turn Ling Qi's Art suite into something that supports that; what combat strategy do you think that suite will support? Are you going to argue vociferously for more Arts to attain a specialty in anti-illusions? Make Ling Qi into a perfect Cai spymistress and avoid combat?

Which part of my post? Because I wasn't proposing anything in what you quoted, I was making a statement: the elements that are in our primary alignment (Darkness, Music, Moon, Water, Wind) do not care overmuch for Self-Knowledge, and we are therefore highly unlikely to pick up an Art that has such an effect at Mastery as a Domain Lesson - the Lesson imparted by fully understanding and internalizing the Art.

The proposal, that taking the lesson that Argent Mirror is intending to teach and making it a Domain, is one that I support, yes. Why, I'm even voting for the perception reroll option!

Self-knowledge means you know when to ask for help - and when you can actually provide the help others need, or when you can't and have to recommend someone else. Self-knowledge covers a whole hell of a lot - It's about knowing who you are, and why you do what you do, whatever that is.

I don't know what I want out of our Domain at this time. I know I want this specific lesson to be internalized, as I believe it's a critical part of growing up. More important than even learning how to learn, but it requires you at least know how to think.

'Don't use imagery to describe how you imagine something'? Are you serious? Your own description of what you wanted was imagery. What part of 'Fortress of Respite and Comfort' is not imagery? That's mighty hypocritical of you.

On the other hand... how about: 'A safe place that you can reflect upon your actions and deeds?' Does that fit your desire of 'no imagery' and reconcile 'Home' with 'Self Knowledge'? Why, it even fits in with your desires.

As far as your other questions: I've got a set of Arts I'd like to learn, complete with the sorts of Alignments I'd like them to be, upthread - before the most recent update - right here. You may notice that it's very general, very tight, and includes a direct damage Combat Art.

I think that we can definitely merge a theme of seeing through lies with home. Something like a home where you are seen for who you really are, and accepted and loved anyway.

This is good too.

Anyway, I need to go to bed now. Later.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.

Honestly this isnt as effectivr for the tournament. But 'for the future' this will give Ling Qi a good base, i hope.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.

"Above all, do not lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or anywhere around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love."

Home is the Foundation of our Domain. But building a stable home involves trust and sincerity. If you are bringing lies or deception into any close relationship it's going to drag it down.
 
And really. 'Generic as self realization?' Damn, you must have let the mass-market morons get to you. Figure yourself out on your own, don't bother with the rest. And 'Hasty'? Is taking twenty five minutes to write a post fast for you, or something? It's a little fast for me, I admit. It usually takes me a lot longer, which means I run into something else someone says and I want to comment on. As seen in figure one, below.
To be blunt, I'd say you're not nearly good enough a writer to sell that with 25min of work because that was a poorly cobbled attempt to sell your theme.
 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.

 
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.

Many of Ling Qi's arts (FVM, SCS, PLR) are focused on obscuring the senses of others. It seems fitting the she herself internalizes the ability to see through others deceptions.
I disagree, really. Elder Ying specializes in area defence and perception. Her perception focus doesn't appear to confer any benefit to obscuring anything, and I don't see why it would, though I must confess we have no way of actually knowing. Resisting deception isn't mastery of our own deception of others, and we're going to get burned if people are operating under that assumption.
 
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