I am greedy, so I'd say no to giving the Dawiar to the Gorn, truth be told, I feel that our relationship with the Gorn will always be strained due to the Orion issue, so giving them a springboard closer to our borders is a no-no to me.
 
I am greedy, so I'd say no to giving the Dawiar to the Gorn, truth be told, I feel that our relationship with the Gorn will always be strained due to the Orion issue, so giving them a springboard closer to our borders is a no-no to me.

The trouble is, we're fighting an 11 ship Task Force from combined Cardassians and Gorn, and the Gorn have some really good ships. Right now we have 5 ships (plus an EC ship that is not getting to do EC Events and bring back resources that way). To match, much less exceed them will be... quite the investment. Is it really worthwhile if we can achieve peace another way and show Gorn the value of diplomacy?
 
[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes' Folly, requirement D7.
[X][DAWI] Deny the request.
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space. [-20pp, special events will be generated in nearby sectors.]

Keeping the Gorn away from Cardassian influence is paramount, as they could allow the spoonheads to flank us. But we don't want to appear overgenerous, so we should keep Ruby Eyes' Folly under our control. Deploying ships directly to Trill will keep an eye out in that area, which will sooner or later lead to us finding out about the symbionts.

Also, how will Sarek and Spock react to meeting Sybok's counterpart from the Technocracy timeline, and vice versa?
 
My main concern is credibility. I know the Gorn are giving us a way to save it by letting us put on a show but it still feels like we're letting the non-nobles hang out to dry.
 
FYI for the thread... Ruby Eyes' Folly is worth 35 sr/year as is. Sharing with the Dawiar means giving up 15 of that (I presume they get 20 because of increased effort from the two parties working together). 15sr would not have too serious an impact on shipbuilding plans.

my instinct is to give the dawar to the gorn, then retask handshake to bringing the gorn onboard.

We actually might need to retask them to protecting the Trill.
 
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[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes' Folly, requirement D7.
[X][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Ruby Eyes' Folly. [-10pp, special events will be generated in nearby sectors.]

I like Sarek's idea.
 
[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes' Folly, requirement D7.
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force. [-15pp, Task Force Option unlocked.]

We're going to need to call up additional member ships for the Task Force, most likely, though we might get the STO ships they planned to send free. I am suddenly really feeling the end of Excelsior production; it would be good to dispatch some heavy metal to lead the Trill force as a reminder to the Ittick-ka that their 2.4mt ships aren't that impressive to us.
 
I don't buy that.The Prime Directive uses "warp/prewarp" as a dividing line for whether a civilization should be contacted, remember?

Even today exactly what the Prime Directive IS is pretty vague. In pre-TNG times it was seriously vague - sometimes, for example, it would be applied to isolationist civilizations with warp drive.

If warp drive was a once-in-the-galaxy unique invention developed specifically by Cochrane, then you wouldn't expect comparatively primitive 'rising species' to develop it spontaneously over and over.

I didn't say it was invented only once. I said that it was invented in the local region 3 times in a short period.

In the FASA timeline warp drive or possibly improved warp drives (it was never made clear, and generally people who like the FASA timeline err towards the latter, since that fits better with TNG and DS9) was invented first by the Klingons, then by Cohcrane, then by the Romulans. After the 3 major empires took advantage of their head-start and became the local powers in the region, warp drive kept being invented, but the late comers were not able to become major powers. And of course before the Federation, Romulans and Klingons invented warp drive (or improved warp drives) there were older empires that had since fallen who had warp drive, but had either gone extinct or collapsed so badly they'd lost the technology.

...Invaded by who, exactly?

Unknown. Vulcan histories just called them the equivalent of "those evil vandals". Likely they were the Hurq or the Orion Empire. Personally I'd favour the idea it was the Orions in TBG, as that fits better with the timeline developed in the quest so far.

The thing is, there are so many human and other non-Vulcan scientists in the Federation that viewing the Federation as a Vulcan sock puppet doesn't really work, even in the sciences. That said, technological sophistication IS very plainly one of the things the Vulcans bring to the table as part of the Federation's alliance.

So I was phrasing it in a silly way, but my serious point was that the Vulcans are the giants whose shoulders human, Andorian and Tellarite scientists most often found themselves standing. It's similar to the founder effect.

fasquardon
 
So finally figured out my choice with this and:

[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes' Folly, requirement D7.
[X][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space. [-20pp, special events will be generated in nearby sectors.]
 
Even today exactly what the Prime Directive IS is pretty vague. In pre-TNG times it was seriously vague - sometimes, for example, it would be applied to isolationist civilizations with warp drive.



I didn't say it was invented only once. I said that it was invented in the local region 3 times in a short period.

In the FASA timeline warp drive or possibly improved warp drives (it was never made clear, and generally people who like the FASA timeline err towards the latter, since that fits better with TNG and DS9) was invented first by the Klingons, then by Cohcrane, then by the Romulans. After the 3 major empires took advantage of their head-start and became the local powers in the region, warp drive kept being invented, but the late comers were not able to become major powers. And of course before the Federation, Romulans and Klingons invented warp drive (or improved warp drives) there were older empires that had since fallen who had warp drive, but had either gone extinct or collapsed so badly they'd lost the technology.



Unknown. Vulcan histories just called them the equivalent of "those evil vandals". Likely they were the Hurq or the Orion Empire. Personally I'd favour the idea it was the Orions in TBG, as that fits better with the timeline developed in the quest so far.



So I was phrasing it in a silly way, but my serious point was that the Vulcans are the giants whose shoulders human, Andorian and Tellarite scientists most often found themselves standing. It's similar to the founder effect.

fasquardon

The Rihannsu books identify the invaders as Orions who hit right before the Exodus.

Later Romulan xenophobia was tied to being an overreaction to this.
 
As discussed a bit in discord, the main question to me is whether we intend to bring the Gorn onboard long-term. The Gorn are clearly more important to than the Dawiar, and our primary goal was to weaken the Ashalla Pact, not necessarily affiliating with the Dawiar.

However, the Gorn do come with a lot of baggage, like the Orions and (probably) Klingons. Some might just result in Gorn-related diplo tags or pp penalties of some sort, but I'm particularly worried about the reactions of major powers like the Klingons.

If we do intend to bring the Gorn into the UFP fold in the long-term, then we'd get the Dawiar for "free", just much much later. So it's a bit of a long con anyway. Even if we don't get the Gorn to eventually join the UFP, it's still important to keep them neutral.

On the other hand, we do risk angering the Dawiar UFP sympathesizers and damage Federation diplomatic trustworthiness. But I consider this risk slight and can be worked around with more diplomacy.

Plus freeing up TF Handshake against an apparently superior opposing task force is appealing. So on balance, I favor appealing to the Gorn rather than the Dawiar, with the hope that we'll get them both eventually anyway.

[X][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]

So now it's their mining colony too. And now the Gorn, having just pledged to show their friendship to the Dawiar, are going to feel obligated to throw in some defense as well. All of a sudden taking Ruby Eye's Folly means fighting Starfleet and the Dawiar, with Gorn support.
I actually like this option not just because we can spare 15sr worth of income, but because it'll be similar to the open station at 26 Enio. It's a security risk, yes, but also an incredible long-term diplomatic in with Gorn (and the Dawiar). Plus it's further deterrence against the Ittick-ka.

[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force. [-15pp, Task Force Option unlocked.]

This seems like the best compromise option, though of all the votes I'm most open to argument here.
I bet most players are in favor of protecting the Trill someway or the other, so "Allow no deployment" is out.

The "Allow deployment to Trill space" is clearly inferior to "Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force", because we can simply send a task force that's majority STO led by a Starfleet cruiser (although it is a bit cheesy).

That leaves "Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force" or "Allow deployment to Ruby Eyes' Folly" as the viable options. And the latter is poor synergy if we do share Ruby Eyes' Folly with the Dawiar/Gorn. Since it's one thing to allow Starfleet, the federal Federation fleet, to patrol Ruby Eyes' Folly; it's another to allow a member fleet to do so without Starfleet.

So I'm inclined to go with the "Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force" option as well.


[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes' Folly, requirement D7.
[X][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force. [-15pp, Task Force Option unlocked.]


BTW, the QMs just clarified in discord that staffing Ruby Eyes' Folly is required from Q2 onwards.

edit: oops, copied wrong option line, fixed
 
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[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes' Folly, requirement D7.
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force. [-15pp, Task Force Option unlocked.]​
 
[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes' Folly, requirement D7.
[X][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force. [-15pp, Task Force Option unlocked.]
 
[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes'Folly, requirement D7.
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force. [-15pp, Task ForceOption unlocked.]
 
[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes' Folly, requirement D7.
[X][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force. [-15pp, Task Force Option unlocked.]
 
[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][DAWI] Deny the request.
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes'Folly, requirement D7.
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force. [-15pp, Task ForceOption unlocked.]

Just no to sharing our mining resources.
 
Having seen the earlier discussions on the general lack of ships and upcoming hard decisions for task forces and patrols, this seems to give us a redeployment opportunity with potential rewards. Worth considering for that alone. You can never do everything you want.
 
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I feel like we need certain guarantees with respect to the Dawiar so that it doesn't come off as us just abandoning the people we've been supporting.

In particular, I think we'd want to require a conclave to vote out the current king, and probably a similar confidence vote to be held regularly in the future; we also might want to make certain requests in regards to any people the Cardassians have disappeared over the years from Dawiar space.

Our own internal politics are a consideration too, and the Princess hopefully understands that we need something a bit more concrete to show for our efforts with Handshake if we don't want people asking pointed questions about why we spent all that time and effort to give the Gorn a new vassal.

It should be interesting to see how the Ittick-ka respond to us effectively telling them "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" in response to their bluster. Almost as interesting as what'll happen when they try the same routine on the Cardies.
 
[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes' Folly, requirement D7.
[X][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force. [-15pp, Task Force Option unlocked.]

Ceding the Dawi, ow.
 
[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[X][REF] Establish an event-generating patrol sector for Ruby Eyes' Folly, requirement D7.
[X][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]
[X][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force. [-15pp, Task Force Option unlocked.]
 
[X][HANDSHAKE] Accept the deal. TF Handshake will disband at start of 2322.Q3 [Gorn pleased, tag progress on 'Great Power Ambitions']
[x][DAWI] Establish a joint mining colony at Ruby Eyes' Folly [Your income from Ruby Eyes' Folly reduced to 20sr, Dawiar gain 20sr income]
[x][STO] Allow deployment to Trill space as part of a Starfleet task force. [-15pp, Task Force Option unlocked.]

my reasons is as follows, we can shit attention to the gorn, and using a joint task force lets us get more returns with fewer hulls.
 
Something I'm trying to figure out: where the hell are the Gorn?

I've been assuming "somewhere on the other side of Klingon space, more-or-less," but beyond that I haven't the foggiest. And they aren't anywhere on the existing map.
 
I feel like we need certain guarantees with respect to the Dawiar so that it doesn't come off as us just abandoning the people we've been supporting.
Depends on exactly what those people wanted. Some might have really wanted Federation affiliation, some others independence, but perhaps the rest might just have wanted to out of the thumb of the Ashalla Pact. In any case, I trust the FDS can paper over hurt feelings sufficiently that this shouldn't damage relations or Federation trustworthiness in the long run.

Our own internal politics are a consideration too, and the Princess hopefully understands that we need something a bit more concrete to show for our efforts with Handshake if we don't want people asking pointed questions about why we spent all that time and effort to give the Gorn a new vassal.
Or from a different point of view, all the effort we did with Handshake forced the Cardassians hands. They thought they could make lemonade from lemons by "selling" the Dawiar to the Gorn, but we're stealing that lemonade out from under their noses.

Something I'm trying to figure out: where the hell are the Gorn?

I've been assuming "somewhere on the other side of Klingon space, more-or-less," but beyond that I haven't the foggiest. And they aren't anywhere on the existing map.
Spinward-rimward of the Klingons IIRC.
 
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