Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

[X] Admit to the deception. Apologize, explain, and accept the consequences.


The revised literally just spells out everything I expected.

Carry on smartly.

Coming forward is basically placing ourselves in her hand AS her Retainer. Sure we'll get punished, hell it might even be harsh.

... But the benefits to the future are that we'll have Cai RenXang Heiress apparent as our staunch friend and beneficiary afterwards. I'm willing to pay a pretty steep price for the kind of loyalty and friendship she's basically offering here, especially if Meizhen is part of that future.

Katreus said:

I don't see why you would ever vote silent unless you're not interested in ever becoming Cai's vassal. This is the type of foundational lie that festers in a relationship and makes it such that a revelation later on breaks that foundation because as a character, we would not be what Cai had looked for: a person with unshakeable loyalty to her friends and their interests.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Well, at least it'd resolve the conflict between the offers.
Keep silent and I'd just go to the Sect route instead, neatly resolving the conflict between the two.

A spymaster keeping a secret directly counter to her liege's professed interests puts everything she does into question if the secret comes out.
And the problem is, the other party holding the secret is entirely able to use it that way if we come into conflict.
Fu Xiang absolutely did this to make sure we're beholden to him and vice versa in a MAD pact

veekie said:

Well, at least it'd resolve the conflict between the offers.
Keep silent and I'd just go to the Sect route instead, neatly resolving the conflict between the two.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I agree with this. It seems to be that claiming that lying to Cai now keeps the door open to vassal status and friendship is unrealistic. I see this as a choice between either admitting guilt now and sticking with Cai, taking whatever punishments she deems fit but setting the foundation for a stronger relationship in the future, or keep quiet and taking the Sect route, keeping some distance away from Cai and her followers, meaning Gan and the Ma sisters.

Grigori said:

I'm still conflicted though. I don't want to start our emloyment on a lie but it's also true that we haven't yet chosen to work for her and I don't want to fuck over FX, for reasons of honour and pragmatism, Humbaba's points of not wanting random bursts of honesty are also pretty convincing. We don't owe this to her and we should be capable of lying. I think she needs to know before we join her but whether that happens isn't set in stone. Ling Qi is clearly uncomfortable with this so we ought to at least stop the set up, that level of corruption is likely too far.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

We definitely don't owe this to her, and telling her this now means that Ling Qi decides that CRX counts amongst her friends. However, I remember how people used to say that "CRX put us on the spot about vassalage and we don't have time to say no", and while I disagree this is exactly the kind of thing that I would say apply: not talking means we are building everything else with her on this decision.

It does mean that if we decide to vote for being her vassal, we would do it with the knowledge that when push come to shove we prefer hiding things from her than following her ideals. It is fine if we want to follow the Fu Xiang route of "control the information sources of your lords and make a corrupt system", but half the point of going CRX is because we want to help her ideals be strong.

The problem, well, is that if we don't decide to go with her, then we are punishing ourself for someone that Ling Qi doesn't yet consider a friend (though I believe the vote of admitting would change that) for no real reasons.

Basically, having a relationship founded on lies is perfectly fine if she is neither our boss and our friend, and there is no reason to hurt ourself just to be honest with her. If we want more, however.... well, we need to admit.

I... think that, also, seeing her reaction will tell us a lot about WHETHER we want her as our boss. I don't know how much punishment is 'too much', or how little punishment is 'too little' for this. I think, however, that this is something very important to know before we are choosing whether to be her vassal or not.

So:

[X] Admit to the deception. Apologize, explain, and accept the consequences.

veekie said:

Well, at least it'd resolve the conflict between the offers.
Keep silent and I'd just go to the Sect route instead, neatly resolving the conflict between the two.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yes. If we participate in the cover up here, we absolutely should: never tell her this after this and never take her offer. Because this is the type of lie that poisons a relationship, esp. since we know that she hates this type of corruption, we did it anyway, and then we lied to her face after we forced a confrontation about trust and friendship and further abused our official position in her council for our personal benefit (not getting caught; not suffering punishment).

A spymaster keeping a secret directly counter to her liege's professed interests puts everything she does into question if the secret comes out.
And the problem is, the other party holding the secret is entirely able to use it that way if we come into conflict.
Fu Xiang absolutely did this to make sure we're beholden to him and vice versa in a MAD pact

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

"A bit less than a week I think," he mused, adjusting his glasses. Then, rising from his seat in front of the desk, he rose and stretched. "My it is a bit of rush isn't it?" He added as he made his way to a more comfortable seat that faced Ling Qi. "I'm not sure what you're talking about," Ling Qi replied dryly. "Have you been peeking again?"
"Nothing of the sort you are implying," Fu Xiang replied in a wounded tone. "No, I merely mean that being in control of what ones Lord sees and believes," he said lightly. "Though I suppose in the future you will have to ensure that you keep a tight hold on Lady Cai's intelligence sources."

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Fu Xiang gets his jollies by deceiving his lord. It's a rush to know he can do so successfully.

Note that this is the type of lie that gains more power over Ling Qi and less power over Fu Xiang as more time passes by. Fu Xiang is going to Ministry of Communication. It won't affect him there. Ling Qi, if she accepted Cai's offer (holy shit, do not accept if we lie here), is hurt more and more the later it goes because it proves she's untrustworthy and the longer it goes, the longer the relationship built on an initial lie it is and it calls into question everything she's done and what kind of person she is.

Katreus said:

I'm going to confess when we're closer as friends so you feel more obligated to overlook this and after I've extracted my benefit from your cultivation gifts!

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Definitely don't expect Cai to overlook this just because we're better friends. Also, the only cultivation gift we're getting is White room, which is council reward, not friend gift.

[X] Remain silent, thank her sincerely and speak of yourself as promised.

The reasoning is simple: 1) I'd rather not do something than repent for it, but having come to a decision tend to stick with it. 2) I see our actions as incompatible with Cai's ideals, yet am not inclined to take the fall for them. Naturally, that means that it precludes us working under Cai if we don't want to be a hypoctite or, worse yet, to be discovered by her and ruin the work she is doing.

But that leads me to the third reason - I don't care much for our future under Cai in the first place. So I do that with the intent to refuse her offer.

Inserted tally

@Pickle Sticks, @kalugin, and @Pipeman are you meaning to have a write in, or did you just copy your old vote and didn't notice the vote wording had changed? Given the 'silents' are counted together I am assuming the 'admit' are too, but just to be sure.

[X] Admit to the deception. Apologize, explain, and accept the consequences.

Bah flip flopping.

[X] Admit to the deception. Apologize, explain, and accept the consequences.

[X] Admit to the deception. Apologize, explain, and accept the consequences.

[X] Admit to the deception. Apologize, explain, and accept the consequences.

This is a tough vote and there are a lot of good points. But this is what my gut is telling me.

Katreus said:

I think it's worse if we do it later since it's blatantly self-serving - I'm going to confess when we're closer as friends so you feel more obligated to overlook this and after I've extracted my benefit from your cultivation gifts! - and that it would absolutely mean she'd have to be harsher rather than the upfront, private confession here here.

Regardless of whether we've nixed the frame job or not - and note that Fu Xiang plans to tell her the "culprit" next week! - it means we'd have participated in the cover up using our official position to report to Cai. This is, to Cai, a much worse betrayal than just doing it in the first place. This is already as good as it gets: before we abuse our official position in a private place.

I don't see why you would ever vote silent unless you're not interested in ever becoming Cai's vassal. This is the type of foundational lie that festers in a relationship and makes it such that a revelation later on breaks that foundation because as a character, we would not be what Cai had looked for: a person with unshakeable loyalty to her friends and their interests.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

No.

That is utter and complete bullshit. I am going to spell it out for you "CAI IS NOT OUR FRIEND YET". Ling Qi is not obligated to fuck herself over for someone who she has barely started to know.

If we go the Cai route in future this might become a point of contention yes, but it does not make sense at the present time for Ling Qi to decide to blurt this out to someone she barely knows in exchange for a 'secret' that isn't even much of a secret. Ling Qi being selfish to a greater or lesser extent has been part of her character arc for a lot of time and her throwing it all away because people think Cai will suffer total character disintegration and not meaningfully punish us is really annoying me.

It makes much more sense, and is a vastly better character arc for Ling Qi to confess either just before we join her or after a few months when we are actually friends with her.

I also have no idea what your pushing as our grand betrayl utilisng our office. If we manage to nix the framejob aspect then it simply becomes doing things outside our duties she wouldn't like. We aren't using our official authority to destroy evidence. Hell Fu Xiang would simply be saying the saboteur left no real evidence. Which is true given the only evidence we left was fake.

If you really want the Cai route confession vote to confess it to her prior to swearing in. But stop trying to frame this as if it locks us out of the Cai route forever. Especially when this might well lock out the sect route forever as WE'LL BE IN STASIS FOR A MONTH.

I'm tearing my hair out over this vote because it makes no goddamn sense in character and yet people keep voting for it. Ling Qi wants to know what kind of Boss Cai would be sure, but she can get a good idea without QUITE POSSIBLY DESTROYING everything else she has built.

I give up. The basis for the vote doesn't make sense IC and people are determined to cling to it in a stupid attempt to 'Test Cai' or 'reciprocate Cai's feelings' despite her having given up basically nothing and her already prying much further into Ling Qi's life.

I'm out. Given the responses I'm getting I can't see a way this doesn't end with Ling Qi permenantly fucked over and at least one Character suffering massive derailment.

EDIT: If we were going to have a Cai vote we should just have had a damn Cai vote.

Inserted tally

[X] Admit to the deception. Apologize, explain, and accept the consequences.

Katreus said:

Yes. If we participate in the cover up here, we absolutely should: never tell her this after this and never take her offer. Because this is the type of lie that poisons a relationship, esp. since we know that she hates this type of corruption, we did it anyway, and then we lied to her face after we forced a confrontation about trust and friendship and further abused our official position in her council for our personal benefit (not getting caught; not suffering punishment).





Fu Xiang gets his jollies by deceiving his lord. It's a rush to know he can do so successfully.

Note that this is the type of lie that gains more power over Ling Qi and less power over Fu Xiang as more time passes by. Fu Xiang is going to Ministry of Communication. It won't affect him there. Ling Qi, if she accepted Cai's offer (holy shit, do not accept if we lie here), is hurt more and more the later it goes because it proves she's untrustworthy and the longer it goes, the longer the relationship built on an initial lie it is and it calls into question everything she's done and what kind of person she is.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That's a load of shit.

We can certainly tell her later and the relationship will survive, if we've built it right. I would much rather have such a relationship than one built around inexplicable instant trust, followed by getting punished. Cai jumped into this by spilling quite possibly her most personal secret unprompted. That's quite clear after the revision - we only asked her to try to get to know her - and her using that as a bludgeon here to turn this into a discussion on deep-level trust, is far from what we intended it. This is absolutely not the time for such confessions, and just because Cai has no understanding of what personal trust actually is doesn't suddenly make it so.


I would be far more comfortable confessing to this crime well after we know each other personally. Even despite it being much worse. It would be worth more to explain ourselves to someone who understands, even if it is hurtful and destroying, than to do so to someone who obviously doesn't.

[X] Remain silent, thank her sincerely and speak of yourself as promised.

On second thought voting for this on the basis that it would weaken the foundation of a cai vassalage. Let's face it what Ling Qi did was NOT okay she sabotaged people under cai's protection.

Humbaba said:

If we go the Cai route in future this might become a point of contention yes, but it does not make sense at the present time for Ling Qi to decide to blurt this out to someone she barely knows in exchange for a 'secret' that isn't even much of a secret.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I've seen a lot of people say that CRX isn't sharing anything big, so this isn't necessarily just directed at you. But I'm kind of confused as to why.

Her directly admitting that she doesn't agree with her mom's plan, and is in fact terrified of her, is a big secret. Personally so very much I'd think. She didn't have any small secrets to share that show under that public face because she feels that her choice of who she could be was taken from her at age 6. Literally shaped by her mother to the point she feels that even her 'rebellious' critique, and driving ambition, isn't of her own will.

That doesn't seem like a nothing secret to me, and I'm confused why people feel like that. Is it because we already knew she was terrified of her mom OOC from the interlude?

It also confirms what we already thought and shows CRX really just does not get how friendships work. She and Ling Qi would be a true force to be reckoned with with their power of social derping combined.

Arkeus said:

@Pickle Sticks, @kalugin, and @Pipeman are you meaning to have a write in, or did you just copy your old vote and didn't notice the vote wording had changed? Given the 'silents' are counted together I am assuming the 'admit' are too, but just to be sure.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Copy paste mistake from when I was on the tablet, I believe.

[X] Admit to the deception. Apologize, explain, and accept the consequences.

the vote is neck and neck with admitting winning by one vote

[X] Admit to the deception. Apologize, explain, and accept the consequences.