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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Erebeal said:
You seem to be arguing that if burning someone's house down is fine in one context, then it must be fine in all other contexts.
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No, I'm arguing that when someone tells you to burn down a house, it would be hypocritical of them to punish you for burning down another house at a different time.

You seem to be making the argument that being under Cai's "order" is sure fire way to be protected from predations and that Cai will avenge you if a crime is committed against you. That argument doesn't jive with what Cai will most likely want us to be doing, trespassing into people's houses, destroying their privacy, all to ensure they are not rebelling or to use as blackmail to make them stay in line. We wouldn't be unleashed against a rebelling household, that is what the army is for. So if we set against a person who isn't rebelling, he would still be protected under Cai's order, and as such under your argument, Cai would have to punish us for doing what she told us to do.
 
[X] Admit to the deception about the market, apologize.

This could backfire, but frankly even if it does so horribly I won't be too upset - worth the price for an answer about whether or not we should follow Cai Renxiang. Additionally, Ling Qi feels like shit for her part in it, and I think this could help, and I think we should repay the trust Cai just gave us with some of our own.
 
Admittedly, a lot of the problem here is that the choice here is pretty heavily dependent on factors outside of our knowledge.

It could be that we genuinely pulled off the perfect crime, and thus can protect Renxiang's Smile by not talking about it. It's entirely possible she knows now and is seeing if we'd be honest with her in turn. It's entirely possible that she doesn't know but will find out because she's easily led by the nose, and it's entirely possible that she doesn't let it lie and keeps digging, eventually finding out the truth and it's far worse for us.

We just don't know!
 
Thor's Twin said:
You seem to be making the argument that being under Cai's "order" is sure fire way to be protected from predations and that Cai will avenge you if a crime is committed against you. That argument doesn't jive with what Cai will most likely want us to be doing, trespassing into people's houses, destroying their privacy, all to ensure they are not rebelling or to use as blackmail to make them stay in line. We wouldn't be unleashed against a rebelling household, that is what the army is for. So if we set against a person who isn't rebelling, he would still be protected under Cai's order, and as such under your argument, Cai would have to punish us for doing what she told us to do.
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I don't think that Cai considers us invading privacy to be a crime. There is no right to privacy here. Us sabotaging people and framing them for crimes would be, and I don't think she'd send us to do that sort of thing because it would directly undermine her justice.

So this scenario? I think we'd just be gathering intel, which is perfectly legit. Not framing people in order to destroy their reputation because that would go against Cai's ideals:
Thor's Twin said:
Hypothetical mission against a noble in the Emerald Seas. Jockeying for political position. Done so at Cai's behest. However, as he is in the Emerald Seas, the province that the duchy controls, he would be under the authority of the Cai's and thus would ostensibly be under Cai's "order." We would be rewarded.
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Man, everyone remember how big of a stink was made when we were arguing about whether or not to do the favor and? How we held off on the whole thing until we broke through and a custom tool made specifically for it? All so we could be as sure as humanly possible that we'd ghost that job so we wouldn't worry about the potential consequences?

And now we're confessing.
 
Erebeal said:
I don't think that Cai considers us invading privacy to be a crime. There is no right to privacy here. Us sabotaging people and framing them for crimes would be, and I don't think she'd send us to do that sort of thing because it would directly undermine her justice.

So this scenario? I think we'd just be gathering intel, which is perfectly legit. Not framing people in order to destroy their reputation because that would go against Cai's ideals:
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Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree here. We already know that she is willing to use blackmail, or is willing to let other people use it on her behalf and not question it that much. See the very first mission we did for Fu Xian.

You could make the argument that they weren't under her "order" or authority yet and that she wouldn't do something like that against someone she is supposed to be protecting, but I think that it would be a very weak argument.

Even if you are correct and that there is no privacy right here, walking on to land that you don't own, breaking locks that are meant to keep you out of places, and stealing documents/information that you don't own is going to be a crime. Otherwise, people could walk onto any property they want and not fear official government reprisal, and people owning the land will know it too. That is a recipe for blood feuds, and extremely avoidable conflicts between nobles if there were rules against it.
 
I'm kind of surprised about the vote opportunity here too. The only one it reminds me of in the quest up to this point is when we voted on whether or not to tell Han Jian about taking Gu Xiulan with us for the second trial.

I think it was hinted then that we were given the opportunity because Ling Qi's social and political acumen had advanced enough that her unknowingly making a faux pas there was unlikely, allowing us to directly intervene. I don't know if this is something similar or not. Whether Ling Qi's 'default' response of staying silent and avoiding confrontation is what is best here, or if yrsillar is hinting that Ling Qi's read on Cai Renxiang after this revelation says that not coming clean would result in much greater consequences down the line. Or that this is something more reflective, focusing on personal growth and the extension of her ambitions to separate herself from how she would have handled an equivalent situation even just earlier this year.

I'm just a little worried because from a meta perspective it rings as another: based on what you now know about x and your skill in y, here's your last chance to avoid heavier consequences down the line.
 
I don't think the consequences of this are going to be particularly disastrous either way.

Why?

I've been expecting a scene like this ever since I read about us planting the evidence instead of just doing three normal sabotages. Normally, a decision like framing someone for Cai to punish, a decision with arc altering consequences would be something that we would get a vote on. I am confident that if "lie to Cai" had been put to a vote it would have been voted down. Yet it happened anyway.

In the most recent update we vote to talk to Cai about the capital city and somehow end up asking her for secrets. I don't think anyone who voted for that minor was expecting that. It came completely out of left field. The whole "tell me a secret of yours so that I'll be loyal to you" thing just seemed kind of weird. Not that the scene was bad, mind you.

This vote is even possible because yrsillar flexed his GM muscles and fiated it into existance. I don't think he would've taken important decisions like that out of our hands if the consequences were potentially disastrous. Especially when we almost certainly would never have made that decision.

I just hope this isn't a personality altering vote that will lead to Ling Qi being more honest in general, rather than just in this specific context-dependent situation. I don't want her personality to move further towards the Generic McGoodguy that quest protagonists tend to gravitate towards.

That said, @yrsillar if there are any additional social rolls required for 'Admit' I'll add my omake points as well. I got them from a Cai-themed omake so this seems like an appropriate place to use them.



I don't believe this is her giving us a chance to confess though. By her own admission she is terrible at intrigue and we are the person who brought up secrets in the first place.
 
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Falconis said:
Just in case what I was going for there wasn't clear, having Cai Renxiang find out about this ON HER OWN, after going through this heart to heart about trust and duplicity would just be bad for everyone involved.
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Or it would be proof that Ling Qi isn't retarded and doesn't go gushing out secrets at the tip of the hat.
Seriously, who would employ a spy/thief/saboteur that doesn't keep it's mouth shut ?
 
Nervaqus987 said:
Man, everyone remember how big of a stink was made when we were arguing about whether or not to do the favor and? How we held off on the whole thing until we broke through and a custom tool made specifically for it? All so we could be as sure as humanly possible that we'd ghost that job so we wouldn't worry about the potential consequences?

And now we're confessing.
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Eh, honestly this isn't about Lady Cai to me. Ling Qi hated that job, noted she hated it. I've voting confess believing it will have negative consequences because Ling Qi doesn't want to be the kind of person who does things like this. We can override her, decide she's going in another direction, but thematically growing past being that person has been part of her character journey.
 
Huzzah! Our results have been padded in a nice and cushy fashion!

It's still risky, but marginally less so!
 
Alectai said:
Huzzah! Our results have been padded in a nice and cushy fashion!

It's still risky, but marginally less so!
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That is assuming the action actually has a roll, which is a strange since that would largely negate the vote itself.
Honestly, besides wishful thinking, I really don't see how people got to the conclusion that the vote's negative consequence(s) would be, could be, negated by dice luck...
 
Ayashi said:
That is assuming the action actually has a roll, which is a strange since that would largely negate the vote itself.
Honestly, besides wishful thinking, I really don't see how people got to the conclusion that the vote's negative consequence(s) would be, could be, negated by dice luck...
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The same way our decision to talk to Meizhen after the lake could be decided by luck.
 
Thor's Twin said:
Even if you are correct and that there is no privacy right here, walking on to land that you don't own, breaking locks that are meant to keep you out of places, and stealing documents/information that you don't own is going to be a crime. Otherwise, people could walk onto any property they want and not fear official government reprisal, and people owning the land will know it too. That is a recipe for blood feuds, and extremely avoidable conflicts between nobles if there were rules against it.
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Or it's just gathering evidence for the government? I mean, what's the difference between this and, say, wiretapping?

Like, even if it is kinda shady (and I agree it is), there's a long way from this to framing people for crimes for personal gain. That undermines the rule of law far more, especially if done by the people who are supposed to be enforcing it. There is a gradient here.

Drawing equivalence between these things is like saying "the sect is fine with us assaulting people, so they must also be fine with us murdering people and hanging their entrails on trees".
 
@yrsillar, a couple of questions. First, there was no mention of our white room cultivation this time. Does this mean we aren't getting -5 to breakthrough rolls after white room each time?

Second:
week 8 said:
Gan Guangli swelled with fury, and she meant that literally. She had thought she was imagining things the few times it had happened before, but seeing it up close confirmed her thoughts. When the blond boy got emotional he literally grew, he was normally the same height as her, but he was now several centimeters taller. It seemed there really were some strange arts out there. "Still your forked tongue, western devil. Else I make your beating all the worse!" Spirits above did he have any volume below shout?
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yrsillar said:
"A lack of defense against spiritual arts is common among lower realms," he replied, clasping his gauntleted hands behind his back as they walked. With combat over, he had gradually shrunk, reaching his normal height, where he stood only a head taller than her. "Such arts are not as common, nor as enticing to new cultivators as more offensive arts."
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Did he gain a head on us since then? this makes me very, very, very, very sad.

Nervaqus987 said:
Man, everyone remember how big of a stink was made when we were arguing about whether or not to do the favor and? How we held off on the whole thing until we broke through and a custom tool made specifically for it? All so we could be as sure as humanly possible that we'd ghost that job so we wouldn't worry about the potential consequences?

And now we're confessing.
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Just think, what would be her reaction if we were caught.

Which is basically why I am voting to admit: I don't think we can afford her to learn of it later on. This is the optimal moment for her to learn of it, whether it is for Ling Qi characterisation, learning more about CRX, or simply not getting our head cut off.

[X] Admit to the deception about the market, apologize.
 
Ayashi said:
Or it would be proof that Ling Qi isn't retarded and doesn't go gushing out secrets at the tip of the hat.
Seriously, who would employ a spy/thief/saboteur that doesn't keep it's mouth shut ?
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Yes why would you ever want a spy/thief saboteur that informs you of their actions instead of doing stuff behind your back without even letting you know?
 
CircleTheSkies said:
What does confessing gain Ling Qi? Anyone else, even?

It saves the guy about to be framed. It... Doesn't actually absolve Ling Qi of her guilt over the sabotage; the two still are unlikely to make it in to the inner sect.

It causes Cai Renxiang to choose between her ideals and her gain of a strong follower. It upsets Li Suyin, I would guess. It upsets Bai Meizhen, who's going to think Ling Qi is the stupidest cultivator ever, I would wager.

It'll almost certainly hurt Ling Qi's own path towards the inner sect.

It might lead to a rift between Cai and Bai, which won't help either's fight against Sun Liling.

Fu will be damaged, and will blame Ling Qi; possibly to the extent of helping Yan Renshu, possibly just to the extent of closing his door right after he was paid to get info on Yan Renshu.

Now, these certainly aren't guaranteed, although there's definitely going to be some of the above to some extent. But these seem pretty plausible to me.

So what is the benefit here? Specifically. Assuaging a pang of guilt and uneasiness over lying? A desire to test Cai Renxiang?
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Benefit would be the chance to properly befriend Cai. Like LQ said, friendship requires trust and friendship is required for us to go the Cai route. I'd be uncomfortable making the explicit choice to lie to her about this after such a big moment.

NaanContributor said:
Actually, this "main supporter" is probably Shenhua's lesbian lover that yrsillar alluded to awhile ago, who Renxiang evidently doesn't like for any number of possible reasons. Which, the more we learn about Shenhua, the more I wonder just what kind of person she could possibly be.
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We know she's a lesbian but do we know she's seeing someone?
 
It should be noted that giving clemency to criminals who confess is an almost universal feature of codes of law/justice. If we confess Cai is not actually obligated by her principals to throw the book at us. Indeed, confessing of your own free will and turning in your co-conspirators is exactly the sort of situation that gets people pardoned for what they did.
 
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