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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Thor's Twin said:
We were engaged in a war game with Sun and Renshu, not a war. Cai believed it to be a war game, Sun believed it to be a war game, and Meizhen believed it to be a war game. This was not a position where it was killed or be killed, this was a fight for political superiority.
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Yes. It was a wargame. That's the point. When the puppet was ambushing girls in the residential quarters, this was a crime, and a challenge to Cai's order that had to be dealt with.

When Gan went after Ji Rong, this was not a crime. It was part of the wargame. It was perfectly normal acceptable behaviour. The same is true of us going after Renshu and Sun Liling. They were not under the aegis of Cai's order. The rules are different here.

In this case, the markets are according to the rules off-limits, and robbing people and sabotaging them is a crime. Cai is taking the responsibility to investigate this crime and dispense justice.

Falconis said:
Also ask yourself this, if it gets sticky how long will Fu Xiang hesitate before throwing us under the bus?

"She approached me to keep this secret from you Lady Cai in order to increase her friends in the production track odds of success. I am sorry that I agreed to it now, and admit I was slightly tempted myself by the offer as I am a production disciple myself."

"What do you mean it was my idea? Please present proof that I put you up to this."
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That's actually good for us. If he doesn't get in trouble, he's much less likely to hold a grudge against us.
 
It might not be a secret test, but it isnt super unreasonable for CRX to at least have some suspicions. How many others in the Outer Sect have the ability to sneak though unawares? Some might be sneaky enough and some could get past the formations but both? We have to be on the list of suspects
 
Now, that being said, if anyone else has any omake rewards outstanding, we've got room for one more nudge upwards.
 
1986ctcel said:
Ahahahaha you serious? A colorful way of stating she wants to get rid of corruption in the province is demonstrating she's "unhinged"?
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These are hardly the best words of a stable genius on a little anticorruption drive to make Emerald Seas great again:
I am a monster as well. Mother made it so, she has shown me the foulness and rot that infests the province, and I will see it purged.
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We know that Cai is not very good at discerning lies told to her. We know that she does not take abuses of her authority well from what she had done to Ji Rong when he was framed. I therefore have terribly low interest in spilling our guts to her on this matter to say nothing of also sabotaging our relationship with the only other major information broker at the same time.
 
Erebeal said:
That's actually good for us. If he doesn't get in trouble, he's much less likely to hold a grudge against us.
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A-are you actually arguing that it is good for us to take the fall for Fu Xiang with no payment, and no promise of returned favor, while creating interpersonal problems between us and our friends and potential future lord just so he won't be upset with us?

Not that it might be an acceptable compromise to trade Fu Xiang displeasure for Cai displeasure+SuSu displeasure(a notion that I firmly disagree with), but that it would be good?

Nah man
Man nah.
 
I'm thinking of this vote largely in terms how it we want to interact with people, and what sort of precedent for interpersonal relations it has us setting.

Here are my thoughts for what admitting would do:
(+) Trust Cai Renxiang
(-) Throw Fu Xiang under the bus as part of repayment for his favor
(-) Inform people about stuff we did that should be secret

If anyone has similar posts to add, @ me and I'll see about adding them.


For now, my vote is:
[X] Remain silent, thank her sincerely for her trust.

 
Well, I guess I'll have to rely on yrsillar being more merciful than I would. Or me misreading the situation; I'm fine with Cai being disappointed, I'm not fine with her deciding she has to enact Justice and so on.

And yes, this not being a write-in does help... a bit. I still think this is a very bad decision, and given in an abrupt out-of-the-blue manner.

I really do hate votes like this, though, where it feels like we have to try and guess how the QM will play each option.
 
[X] Remain silent, thank her sincerely for her trust.

I'm too wishy washy :( Either of these options are potentially bad, but rely on information we don't really have.
 
I would like to point out that Cai just told us that her most ABSOLUTE wish in the world is to REBEL AGAINST HER LIEGE LORD... Her MOTHER.

I don't think you guys really get just how Serious a transgression she just admitted to, even as a passing fancy.


Its a secret given which can potentially destroy someone like her if fed into the right ear. Its the kind of thing ONLY your inner circle can ever know or ELSE.


CRX just dropped one hell of a bomb in Ling Qi's lap. And truth be told even if she feels it absolutely necessary to punish us one way or another she'll feel even more compelled to ensure that we are strengthened for her needs.
 
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Anyway, to put things in terms of political shenanigans, and what we might be doing for Cai... The point I would make, @Thor's Twin , is that there is a difference between ordinary political maneuvering, and dealing with outright rebellion. You do not deal with them in the same way, and the rules for dealing with them, and what is acceptable are very different. With regular internal politics within the rules of the law, sneaking around, gathering intel that could be useful in negotiations is perfectly normal and reasonable. Burning their house down is not. On the other hand, if someone is in outright rebellion then burning their house down in order to weaken them and force them into an unfavorable position so that they can be crushed is perfectly legit.

You seem to be arguing that if burning someone's house down is fine in one context, then it must be fine in all other contexts.

Falconis said:
A-are you actually arguing that it is good for us to take the fall for Fu Xiang with no payment, and no promise of returned favor, while creating interpersonal problems between us and our friends and potential future lord just so he won't be upset with us?
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No, I'm arguing that if he can put together an excuse that makes it hard for Cai to punish him, then he's much less likely to hold a serious grudge against us.
 
A nasty vote. As a person interested in Cai route, however, it's a vote promising to be illuminating.

[X] Admit to the deception about the market, apologize.

We will be making an enemy of Fu Xiang. Despite it being unwise, I can live with that.
 
Xicree said:
I would like to point out that Cai just told us that her most ABSOLUTE wish in the world is to REBEL AGAINST HER LIEGE LORD... Her MOTHER.
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I didn't read it like that.
yrsillar said:
Mother made it so, she has shown me the foulness and rot that infests the province, and I will see it purged. I do not find the weaving she intends to be displeasing… I merely believe that I might improve it, in time.
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She is saying that she doesn't disagree with what her mother wants to do, and intends to carry out those ambitions; she merely thinks that in some ways she could do better than her mother. That is not rebelling; it is just an explanation for having different/additional goals compared to her mother.
 
Grigori said:
Nice to learn about Liming IC. Also that CRX apparently dislikes her mother's main supporter. Would that be because they're as much an extremist as her mother or maybe an unscrupulous felllow who simply knows a winning side when they see one.
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Actually, this "main supporter" is probably Shenhua's lesbian lover that yrsillar alluded to awhile ago, who Renxiang evidently doesn't like for any number of possible reasons. Which, the more we learn about Shenhua, the more I wonder just what kind of person she could possibly be.
 
Xicree said:
I would like to point out that Cai just told us that her most ABSOLUTE wish in the world is to REBEL AGAINST HER LIEGE LORD... Her MOTHER.

I don't think you guys really get just how Serious a transgression she just admitted to, even as a passing fancy.
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She did not say that she plans to rebel at all. She said that her mother is a monster, but happens to be one who made a monster of a daughter such that her daughter also wants to carry out her vision with some tweaks.
 
Kipeci said:
She did not say that she plans to rebel at all. She said that her mother is a monster, but happens to be one who made a monster of a daughter such that her daughter also wants to carry out her vision with some tweaks.
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To make such tweaks she NEEDS to be rid of the original old monster.

IE. Rebellion.
 
[X] Admit to the deception about the market, apologize.

I'm still not sure on this, but here's my vote for now.
 
Xicree said:
To make such tweaks she NEEDS to be rid of the original old monster.

IE. Rebellion.
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Or, ya know, just getting power at all. As I understand it, Shenhua is planning to grant CRX power of her own; that is part of why CR is in the sect, even.

Also I think there is an expectation that CRX will be promoted to Duchess eventually (probably when Shenhua ascends), which means that CRX will definitely have latitude to implement her own changes.
 
Xicree said:
To make such tweaks she NEEDS to be rid of the original old monster.

IE. Rebellion.
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Plenty of ways for a white cultivator to leave behind earthly concerns without a daughter instigating them. Certainly I don't see how she'd survive in a mindreader's court intending to rebel against her. This very update appears to indicate that she thinks her mom will tire of these concerns and abandon the table, at which point she would logically be the one to try to swoop in.
 
Cai on doing things herself(year 43 week 34 part 2)

"Why do you do so much yourself?" Ling Qi asked, swirling the liquid in her cup. Todays tea was white, almost like milk, it had a pleasingly sweet flavor. "I feel like you could delegate a lot of what I see you do."

Cai Renxiang considered her question as she drank from her cup. That eyes half closed expression the girl had when tasting her tea was the closest Ling Qi had seen her too relaxed. "I suppose I find it useful to experience such direct leadership while I can. As my responsibilities grow, delegation will, as you say, become an increasing necessity."

"So you enjoy listening to people complain all day?" Ling Qi winced a little at the sarcasm that slipped out instinctively. "Er… My apologies, that was rude."

"It was, just a little," Cai Renxiang replied, and if Ling Qi didn't know better, she would think she was being teased. She inclined her head slightly, the light behind her glimmering and casting her shadow across the table. "One who has not the patience for the base will find themselves unable to reach the peak."

Ling Qi replaced her cup on the table with a faint clink, drumming her fingers on the polished stone tabletop. "Well, I g… suppose you take your lessons on the lower tiers of leadership seriously. Does it really matter though? At the top, you can just command whatever you want, and it'll happen."

"Within limits, that is true," Cai Renxiang acknowledged. "The natural hierarchy of strength is ultimately immutable, but many things slip through the cracks in such a view. Details which, though small add up to greater turmoil and lessened prosperity. Harmony and Order must be tended too carefully, or they will crumble the moment that your gaze turns from them." She paused to allow the girl attending them to pour her another cup before continuing. "I must understand the tasks at each level, in order to know the qualities I must seek in my subordinates."
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If this had write ins, I would try something based on this for spinning things. Focus on helping her understand what spycraft and subterfuge entail.

For all we know she's been corroborating with Fu for some kind of circuitous test.

Skewing towards telling her, but not enough to vote at the moment.
 
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The fact is, if we admit to it, she's going to do her best to see justice done to us, no more, no less. i don't think i have an opinion on whether we should admit it or not, even if i respect that she would probably be willing to see her beliefs through.
 
Erebeal said:
Yes. It was a wargame. That's the point. When the puppet was ambushing girls in the residential quarters, this was a crime, and a challenge to Cai's order that had to be dealt with.

When Gan went after Ji Rong, this was not a crime. It was part of the wargame. It was perfectly normal acceptable behaviour. The same is true of us going after Renshu and Sun Liling. They were not under the aegis of Cai's order. The rules are different here.

In this case, the markets are according to the rules off-limits, and robbing people and sabotaging them is a crime. Cai is taking the responsibility to investigate this crime and dispense justice.
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I don't know if you made the connection from the rest of my post, so I'll try to make the connection again, in a different manner.

Wargame against Yan Renshu. Jockeying for political position. Done so at Cai's behest. And as you've argued, he was not protected by Cai's "order." We would be rewarded.

Hypothetical mission against a noble in the Emerald Seas. Jockeying for political position. Done so at Cai's behest. However, as he is in the Emerald Seas, the province that the duchy controls, he would be under the authority of the Cai's and thus would ostensibly be under Cai's "order." We would be rewarded.

Destruction of talismans in the market. Not Jockeying for political position. Not done at Cai's behest. The targets were under Cai's "order." Would we be punished?

The first one may or may not be a crime, depending on whether there is an objective standard for what is a crime and it is not simply going against Cai's order. The second one would be a crime, as the man would be protected under Cai's order, and yet since Cai directed it we would be rewarded. The third one would be a crime, as it was against someone under Cai's order, and we did so with out Cai's permission.

The chain then is this: the first two are for political power and directed by Cai, the second and third are against people under Cai's order. The first and the third then, are connected through the second. To punish us for sabotaging people under her "order" would mean that it would be hypocritical to reward us when we sabotage someone under her "order" when she tells us to. To punish us for sabotaging people under her "order" when she tells us to would be hypocritical since she rewarded us for sabotaging people outside of her "order" when she told us to do it.
 
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