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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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BoneyM said:
You might be overestimating what they're capable of. They're guys that marched around with a spear for thirty years. Building contacts, monitoring opinions, reporting on personality and habits, analyzing reports and passing on summaries? They're untrained, uneducated peasants. You can send them somewhere and they'll keep their ears open for rumours at the pub and gossip at the marketplace and pass on anything that sticks out, but that's about their limit.

And as I said earlier, there's a real danger in trying to get these veterans to spy on Gustav. As you reported to Van Hal, he's universally beloved by his men, and these are peasants suspicious of sneaky business in general and wizards in particular, so he'd be very likely to un-suborn the suborned men you send to him without even trying.
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I think this is mostly a wording issue, because an untrained and uneducated peasant is entirely capable of doing everything I'm asking, at least in the way I mean it. Build contacts means "deliberately try to make friends and talk to them regularly". Monitoring opinions is just "talk to people regularly and see what they like or dislike, or if particular things are bothering them". Reporting on personality and habits is a little harder but "does he drink, gamble, get manipulated by women, act like an asshole, bribe people to get his way, or have any other personal flaws" is something that frankly anyone can understand, particularly someone in an organization where people complain about superiors. In particular, all I'm asking the military/Gustav assignees to do is basically the stuff you said here.

I'm aware that the Gustav guy is likely to be suborned, but he costs us 10g. Even a month or two of reliable reports before he decides that he likes Gustav better than us is worth that, and what's the downside? (Edit: Well, the downside is potentially Gustav getting angry but I'm not too concerned about triggering a conversation with him over having asked someone to make sure he's not an embezzling dick like the last guy.)

Wait, the Watch phrasing I stole from veekie. That one might be asking a bit much.
 
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Okay, my issues with Plan Solid Core:
veekie said:
----[X] Provocation: Appoint influential local priests of Morr, Shallya, Rhya, Ulric, and maybe even Handrich, Myrmidia and whatever the halflings follow as Kasmir's advisory council, in addition to a local Sigmarite priest. Either he'd learn to work with the other faiths, achieving the objective without having to cross the Grand Theogonist, or Kasmir would be goaded into doing something unfortunate to his advisory council, in which case you'd be able to fire Kasmir for criminal action. Bonus if you can make sure that said priests come from noble backgrounds so as to make the resultant mess as hard to sweep away as possible.
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This tries to burden Kasmir down with a pan-faith council, but he can presumably just ignore them or send them out on some stupid mission or task to get them out of his hair, while simultaneously hating us more for trying to curtail his powers.

I think we need to just accept Kasmir's failings and try to work around him, but not by giving him figurehead sub-advisors he can just ignore and repudiate.

Also I'm not sure what kind of precedent there is for a move like this. Can Van Hal just do that?
----[X] Sabotage: You're hesitant to suggest this, but it would be possible to plant evidence in Kasmir's rooms that he's been working with the contents of the East Wing in secret. Which would give Van Hal the justification to execute him if successful. The problem is that given the way such things work, its all too easy for a lie to become reality and you'd really rather not touch any of it yourself.
----[X] You'd recommend the provocation approach, since it SHOULD be useful even if it fails, and theres really nothing stopping the Grand Theogonist from sending endless and increasingly worse lines of zealots as he removes each one.
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You've having Weber suggest framing Kasmir, then walk it back for the reasons you stated in the sub-clause: the Grand Theogonist can just send more of Kasmir's like. So why have Weber suggest it at all if it's a bad plan that she shoots down herself?
-[X] Backtracking and Side Operations:
--[X] Okay. A report on the new Martial. Follow them around for a while, see what you can find out about them. (NEW)
---[X] Van Hal gets a copy as well.
--[X] Try to tail the messenger who you give the report to. (NEW)
---[X] Ranald's Blessing
---[X] Overwork on tailing the messenger
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I have no idea how Ranald's blessing and Overwork mesh, but I'm not really eager to find out. I'm not sure a +20 roll will counteract some kind of overwork-based critical failure. Nothing really to say beyond that; you have your opinion on the issue and I have mine.
-[X] Van Hal can get you veterans of the Army of Stirland - mostly uneducated and suspicious of magic, but unquestionably loyal to Stirland. (no action required, -10g discretionary/turn each) (NEW)
---[X] Assign one to Bidenhof, Tarshof and Julbach each. Preferably someone who comes from those villages. Their job is to keep you up to date with the village rumors and point out what's just local custom, and whats unusual for those villages, as well as to acquire more gossips/informants from the village outlying farms in their own time.
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I'm with Darklight; it's stupid to spend money to put an uneducated peasant in charge of the other uneducated peasants already doing this job for us in Bidenhof and the others.
 
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DarkLight140 said:
I think this is mostly a wording issue, because an untrained and uneducated peasant is entirely capable of doing everything I'm asking, at least in the way I mean it. Build contacts means "deliberately try to make friends and talk to them regularly". Monitoring opinions is just "talk to people regularly and see what they like or dislike, or if particular things are bothering them". Reporting on personality and habits is a little harder but "does he drink, gamble, get manipulated by women, act like an asshole, bribe people to get his way, or have any other personal flaws" is something that frankly anyone can understand, particularly someone in an organization where people complain about superiors. In particular, all I'm asking the military/Gustav assignees to do is basically the stuff you said here.
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Put like that, it sounds a lot more reasonable.

DarkLight140 said:
I'm aware that the Gustav guy is likely to be suborned, but he costs us 10g. Even a month or two of reliable reports before he decides that he likes Gustav better than us is worth that, and what's the downside? (Edit: Well, the downside is potentially Gustav getting angry but I'm not too concerned about triggering a conversation with him over having asked someone to make sure he's not an embezzling dick like the last guy.)
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Explaining why you implicitly impugned his honour in such a way that you explicitly impugn his honour is an interesting strategy.

Guile said:
I have no idea how Ranald's blessing and Overwork mesh, but I'm not really eager to find out. I'm not sure a +20 roll will counteract some kind of overwork-based critical failure. Nothing really to say beyond that; you have your opinion on the issue and I have mine.
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Ranald's Blessing increases the chance of success, Overwork increases the severity of failure. I'm not going to tell you what decisions to make but it would probably be a super bad idea to slap Overwork on something with potentially severe consequences for failure already.
 
Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and vote for,
[X] Plan Turn This Castle Upside Down And Shake It

Caveat: I don't agree with trying to get Gustav's troops to inform on him (too much room for error, not enough potential gain), but it has a lot of clever bits so I'm still voting for it anyway.
 
One thing we haven't discussed enough but is extremely crucial to this quest going forward:

Both main votes have Weber voting for buying under-robe clothes.

On the one hand, this decreases the chance for shenanigans like Weber running around in her underwear, so I'm opposed.
On the other hand, the chance for clothes-based shenanigans during the clothes-buying expedition is increased (Weber is seen in flagrante derelicto with Van Hal, and is now buying nicer clothes? Getting fancied up? This has potential).
On the mutant third hand, we could vote to go shopping with Wilhelmina, thereby increasing potential shenanigans. This is clearly the superior option, and I hope that you will all give this opportunity the care and thought it deserves.
 
Guile said:
On the other hand, the chance for clothes-based shenanigans during the clothes-buying expedition is increased (Weber is seen in flagrante derelicto with Van Hal, and is now buying nicer clothes? Getting fancied up? This has potential).
On the mutant third hand, we could vote to go shopping with Wilhelmina, thereby increasing potential shenanigans. This is clearly the superior option, and I hope that you will all give this opportunity the care and thought it deserves.
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All the likes! Love triangle ahoy!
 
Robotninja said:
But if it is for a good enough cause, it will be harder for him to make trouble for us because of it.
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Are you sure that's how the Obstructionist Fantasy Pope rolls?

You don't think he'll be all, 'In these trying times we should all strive for unity, and what's more unified than a solid block of the (Sigmarite) faithful holding back Sylvania? Let's not introduce complexity into this.'?
 
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Sad thing is Kasmir seems to be a decent Warpriest.
He can smite Undead and is zealous enough to resist Chaos and he could propably even inspire fellow Sigmarites in a not-mixed army group.

He has just been promoted beyond his abilities and natural tendencies.

I wish we could just demote him to point him at enemies of Sigmar, of which there are countless in Silvania.
I would guess that once he gets over his pride he might even be happier in that position than in his current one.
Stupid politics preventing that.
 
Guile said:
On the mutant third hand, we could vote to go shopping with Wilhelmina, thereby increasing potential shenanigans. This is clearly the superior option, and I hope that you will all give this opportunity the care and thought it deserves.
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Hm.

-[ ] Wardrobe Expansion: Start wearing a tunic and breeches under your wizard's robes. (no action required, -personal gold)
--[ ] Your knowledge of clothing has been stunted by years of wearing only grey robes of standardized make. Maybe Wilhelmina would have advice? It's an excuse to talk to her, at least.

Unfortunately I think that might require spending an action slot to get to know her better. But if it doesn't... then I want a quick informal voter poll to see if it should be in my action set.


Artemis1992 said:
Sad thing is Kasmir seems to be a decent Warpriest.
He can smite Undead and is zealous enough to resist Chaos and he could propably even inspire fellow Sigmarites in a not-mixed army group.

He has just been promoted beyond his abilities and natural tendencies.

I wish we could just demote him to point him at enemies of Sigmar, of which there are countless in Silvania.
I would guess that once he gets over his pride he might even be happier in that position than in his current one.
Stupid politics preventing that.
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Well, we are giving Van Hal advice this vote. "You should write-in orders for Kasmir that send him charging into Sylvania at the head of the part of the army that he just imported a bunch of zealots to" is advice.
 
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DarkLight140 said:
Unfortunately I think that might require spending an action slot to get to know her better. But if it doesn't... then I want a quick informal voter poll to see if it should be in my action set.
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You can ask for her advice for shopping, but to start building a friendship with her or get to know her better you'd need to spend more time with her than that. This'd be a natural candidate to tie into a Getting To Know You action.
Adhoc vote count started by BoneyM on Feb 2, 2018 at 2:26 AM, finished with 168 posts and 12 votes.
  • [X] Plan Solid Core
    -[X] As Per Orders: Perform your current assignment. Choose ONE to have Van Hal's assistance with.
    --[X] Examine and interrogate the imprisoned infiltrator.
    ---[X] Van Halp
    --[X] Trace their actions inside the castle, investigate every facet of what they did and see if there's a way they somehow could have sabotaged something.
    --[X] Walk back their movements, see whether they left the castle and if so, what they were doing.
    --[X] Go out to the nearby villages and confirm the details of every single servant claiming to be from there.
    -[X] Influencing Van Hal: You're going to be spending time with him anyway, that's a lot of time to talk. Choose up to ONE. If 'Sucking Up To The Boss' is chosen, choose up to TWO.
    --[X] He's seriously considering getting rid of Kasmir. Spend some time with him and suggest a specific approach, or try to talk him out of it. (write in approach and reasons)
    ---[X] Approach: You'd suggest to avoid doing anything as extreme as to the late Marshal, as that would ensure that the clergy of Stirland and the general Church of Sigmar would go from passive interference to active disruption. Which leaves two ways:
    ----[X] Provocation: Appoint influential local priests of Morr, Shallya, Rhya, Ulric, and maybe even Handrich, Myrmidia and whatever the halflings follow as Kasmir's advisory council, in addition to a local Sigmarite priest. Either he'd learn to work with the other faiths, achieving the objective without having to cross the Grand Theogonist, or Kasmir would be goaded into doing something unfortunate to his advisory council, in which case you'd be able to fire Kasmir for criminal action. Bonus if you can make sure that said priests come from noble backgrounds so as to make the resultant mess as hard to sweep away as possible.
    ----[X] Sabotage: You're hesitant to suggest this, but it would be possible to plant evidence in Kasmir's rooms that he's been working with the contents of the East Wing in secret. Which would give Van Hal the justification to execute him if successful. The problem is that given the way such things work, its all too easy for a lie to become reality and you'd really rather not touch any of it yourself.
    ----[X] You'd recommend the provocation approach, since it SHOULD be useful even if it fails, and theres really nothing stopping the Grand Theogonist from sending endless and increasingly worse lines of zealots as he removes each one.
    -[X] Backtracking and Side Operations:
    --[X] Okay. A report on the new Martial. Follow them around for a while, see what you can find out about them. (NEW)
    ---[X] Van Hal gets a copy as well.
    --[X] Try to tail the messenger who you give the report to. (NEW)
    ---[X] Ranald's Blessing
    ---[X] Overwork on tailing the messenger
    -[X] Van Hal can get you veterans of the Army of Stirland - mostly uneducated and suspicious of magic, but unquestionably loyal to Stirland. (no action required, -10g discretionary/turn each) (NEW)
    --[X] Get five.
    ---[X] Assign one to Bidenhof, Tarshof and Julbach each. Preferably someone who comes from those villages. Their job is to keep you up to date with the village rumors and point out what's just local custom, and whats unusual for those villages, as well as to acquire more gossips/informants from the village outlying farms in their own time.
    ---[X] Assign one to keep in touch with Swartzhafen, preferably someone who knows the Commander there.
    ---[X] Assign one to summing up the Wurtbad Watch's reports and to personally get to know the Watchmen.
    --[X] Pay for them to be taught literacy, and basic sums if necessary. Check if they have any useful side skills. Assign to other tasks if they do.
    --[X] You'll get someone more educated(and no doubt, more expensive) from Anton later to manage what these guys churn out, but for now their job is to expand the not-at-all subtle informants and save your ass from riding up and down the country all year.
    -[X] Home Comforts: Your Palace-Shrine is bursting with potential. And also mud.
    --[X] Wardrobe Expansion: Start wearing a tunic and breeches under your wizard's robes. (no action required, -personal gold)
    --[X] Diggy Diggy Hole, Outsourced: Pay someone to do the digging, then Mindhole them on their way out. (no action required, -personal gold)
    --[X] Enchantment: So far you've failed to find suitable equipment (damn Wizard Chic) but you could always try again with local goods. (-personal gold, action required to set up and learn to use equipment, action expenditure can be postponed) (NEW)
    ---[X] Postpone action. Just buy the stuff first.
    -[X] Research:
    --[X] That damn Asp has still been quiet, but now you've got a lead. Peruse the book Light And It's Properties, by Leonardo da Miragliano. (NEW)
    [x] Plan Turn This Castle Upside Down And Shake It
    -[x] Examine and interrogate the imprisoned infiltrator.
    -[x] Trace their actions inside the castle, investigate every facet of what they did and see if there's a way they somehow could have sabotaged something.
    --[x] Van Hal assists
    -[x] Walk back their movements, see whether they left the castle and if so, what they were doing.
    -[x] Closely interrogate every remaining servant.
    -[x] Go out to the nearby villages and confirm the details of every single servant claiming to be from there.
    -[x] If Kasmir is to be removed, he'll need replacing. Suggest somewhere that Van Hal could look to find someone.
    --[x] The Morrites are a key part of the defense against Sylvania and care for Stirland. They can likely suggest one of their own, or if that's not politically feasible, they could at least provide a recommendation as to a Sigmarite who they know that they and Stirland's other cults can work with well.
    -[x] Van Hal is having a crisis of faith, but as someone whose religion demands that she not talk about her religion, you don't think you can help. See if you can convince Wilhelmina to talk him through this. (no action)
    -[x] Van Hal can get you veterans of the Army of Stirland - mostly uneducated and suspicious of magic, but unquestionably loyal to Stirland. (no action required, -10g discretionary/turn each)
    --[x] Assign one to each of Drebkau and Langwald with orders to move in, build contacts, and send us reports regularly on recent events with an emphasis on anything unusual or suspicious. Veterans who have already retired into those locations or intend to do so anyway would be ideal.
    --[x] Assign one to keep an eye on opinions in the military. Put an emphasis on the new Marshal for now, from his staff if they can manage it.
    --[x] Insert one into the new Marshal's staff, with orders to report on his personality and any habits which may be harmful to Stirland's interests.
    --[x] Assign one to keep in close contact with the Wurtbad Watch and personally get to know the Watchmen.
    --[x] Hire a scribe to ensure that they are literate and numerate enough to send regular legible reports. (-15g discretionary)
    -[x] Van Hal recommended asking Anton about sons and daughters of nobles to use as assistants. They're likely to be well-educated and politically savvy, but their loyalties would be to their family and they may be undisciplined. Line up some interviews and see how it goes.
    --[x] Ranald's Blessing
    -[x] Report on Gustav based upon the previous investigation and whatever the new hires turn up before your deadline. (no action)
    --[x] Pass anything new to Van Hal, as well. (no action)
    -[X] Home Comforts: Your Palace-Shrine is bursting with potential. And also mud.
    --[X] Diggy Diggy Hole, Outsourced: Pay someone to do the digging, then Mindhole them on their way out. (no action required, -personal gold)
    -[x] Wardrobe Expansion: Start wearing a tunic and breeches under your wizard's robes. (no action required, -personal gold)
    --[x] Enchantment: So far you've failed to find suitable equipment (damn Wizard Chic) but you could always try again with local goods. (-personal gold, action required to set up and learn to use equipment, action expenditure can be postponed)
    ---[X] Postpone action. Just buy the stuff first.
    [X] Plan madness​

    ---[X] Ranald's Blessing​
    ​
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BoneyM said:
You can ask for her advice for shopping, but to start building a friendship with her or get to know her better you'd need to spend more time with her than that. This'd be a natural candidate to tie into a Getting To Know You action.
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Damn. Our odds of taking a Getting To Know You action with anyone ever are somewhere between "when pigs fly" and "when Hell freezes over", given how pressed for time we are between actually doing our job and becoming a competent wizard. We're basically only managing the first as things stand.

I guess that's standard for councilors, though; it's not as though anyone's ever spent one of their Getting To Know You actions on us.
 
Guile said:
Okay, my issues with Plan Solid Core:

This tries to burden Kasmir down with a pan-faith council, but he can presumably just ignore them or send them out on some stupid mission or task to get them out of his hair, while simultaneously hating us more for trying to curtail his powers.

I think we need to just accept Kasmir's failings and try to work around him, but not by giving him figurehead sub-advisors he can just ignore and repudiate.

Also I'm not sure what kind of precedent there is for a move like this. Can Van Hal just do that?
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He could actually establish any damned focus group he pleases as the Elector Count.
It's basically dealing with Kasmir by ignoring him and going straight to the individual faiths until he shapes up or ships out.

The problem here is that it'd cost Van Hal more of his actions to deal with it this way, but in exchange the Grand Theogonist HAS to send someone useful or accept being bypassed.

The Advisory Council is for efficiency purposes, since Van Hal only needs to work with a handful of people.
You've having Weber suggest framing Kasmir, then walk it back for the reasons you stated in the sub-clause: the Grand Theogonist can just send more of Kasmir's like. So why have Weber suggest it at all if it's a bad plan that she shoots down herself?
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We're giving him OPTIONS.
Even if we don't like them, we tell him in private, he decides whether we should give Kasmir the end run and bypass him, whether we should frame him,, whether we should just straight out try to assassinate a priest of Sigmar or just fire him and damn what the Church would think.

Thats our job as an advisor after all. Giving the boss man options rather than telling him what to do.

I have no idea how Ranald's blessing and Overwork mesh, but I'm not really eager to find out. I'm not sure a +20 roll will counteract some kind of overwork-based critical failure. Nothing really to say beyond that; you have your opinion on the issue and I have mine.
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We already know the mechanics of this. Overwork makes failure worse, but not more likely. Ranald's blessing makes failure less likely. That said if there's enough people calling for this I'd just shift it over to one of the investigation actions instead. It's not a hill to die on.
I'm with Darklight; it's stupid to spend money to put an uneducated peasant in charge of the other uneducated peasants already doing this job for us in Bidenhof and the others.
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It takes TIME to manage the uneducated peasants. We currently need to ride to and from all these villages to get the intel, and network, which means we're wasting time doing routine work...which could be fobbed off cheaply to uneducated peasants who can at least write legibly.

If you're hiring a noble from Anton or clerk from Wilhemina I'm expecting the bill to be closer to 25 gold per person per turn. With less certain loyaty
If we want free minions we'd have to expand the thieves guild to an actual thing by investing actions
 
Seventeen said:
I wouldn't mind a hypothetical future turn where we take a Sucking Up To The Boss action with a Research Undead action. That's good action synergy.

The problem is having a turn where nothing's of immediate urgency and where we don't have a bunch of other things (magical learning, combat training, catching up on past leads, etc) being important enough to prioritise ahead of it.
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Well, considering getting the autopsy done can shed light into what we're trying to chase down I'd consider it urgent (not even knowing what we're chasing after is a big malus in my books). Problem is, we don't have the action or the actual expertise to do it.
Might as well chuck it to the expert, save our own actions, and get the problem sorted out so we don't need another year before we go through the cadavers.

But eh, apparently consensus is 'do it later'. I'll bring it up next turn
 
veekie said:
He could actually establish any damned focus group he pleases as the Elector Count.
It's basically dealing with Kasmir by ignoring him and going straight to the individual faiths until he shapes up or ships out.

The problem here is that it'd cost Van Hal more of his actions to deal with it this way, but in exchange the Grand Theogonist HAS to send someone useful or accept being bypassed.
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Or Kasmir ignores his new council just like he has Van Hal's multiple private suggestions, and continues as he always has.

Or the Grand Theogonist starts using his influence more overtly, and Van Hal has a political shitstorm on his hands.
We're giving him OPTIONS.

Thats our job as an advisor after all. Giving the boss man options rather than telling him what to do.
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Bad ones, though.

I'd say our job as advisor isn't to give him ideas that we don't personally believe are good ideas.
It takes TIME to manage the uneducated peasants. We currently need to ride to and from all these villages to get the intel, and network, which means we're wasting time doing routine work...which could be fobbed off cheaply to uneducated peasants who can at least write legibly.
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From what I understand, we ride around getting the network set up in the first place, then it runs automatically. We don't need to go ride to Julbach to manually talk to the peasants there every time they have information for us.
 
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veekie said:
We already know the mechanics of this. Overwork makes failure worse, but not more likely. Ranald's blessing makes failure less likely. That said if there's enough people calling for this I'd just shift it over to one of the investigation actions instead. It's not a hill to die on.
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I really think we don't want a more severe failure on tailing our hidden masters since that seems like asking for trouble.
 
[X] Plan Turn This Castle Upside Down And Shake It
Seconding Guile wanting the veteran in Gustav's retinue be taken out : Warhammer isn't as grimdark as it's 40k counterpart, and we aren't the inquisition. Let's not set ourselves up for failure and agitate the guy who we are going to have to work with when Sylvania starts acting up again. Especially since he seems the type to really put a lot of importance in honour.
 
Guile said:
Or Kasmir ignores his new council just like he has Van Hal's multiple private suggestions, and continues as he always has.

Or the Grand Theogonist starts using his influence more overtly, and Van Hal has a political shitstorm on his hands.
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Which doesn't matter? Because Van Hal can ignore Kasmir and go straight to the council, leaving Kasmir to make increasingly out of touch reports.
Bad ones, though.

I'd say our job as advisor isn't to give him ideas that we don't personally believe are good ideas.
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See the case about investigating Castle Drakenhof and the Stirland League.
Van Hal has specifically expressed that when we know its a bad option we should give him the option, tell him its a bad option and then trust his judgment.

This is one of the reasons he trusts us, because we tell him stuff even when it's inconvenient to us. He's the monarch here, and he prefers to be informed.

Hence giving him our ideas, recommend the one we think is best, and let him decide. I mean, would WE like it if our subordinates started deciding that "no, expanding the thieves guild into this town is a bad idea because theres ratmen in those sewers and I don't want to fight ninjas" => "lets not tell the boss so we don't get told to fight ninjas"

From what I understand, we ride around getting the network set up in the first place, then it runs automatically. We don't need to go ride to Julbach to manually talk to the peasants there every time they have information for us.
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Nope! That was the trigger for the "get some subordinates" action. Because the whole network currently relies on Mathilda riding around the country to maintain, so she can't expand it any further. Her free time is fully taken up on a riding circuit.
NotteBoy97 said:
I really think we don't want a more severe failure on tailing our hidden masters since that seems like asking for trouble.
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Alright, switching the overwork action to one of the investigations
 
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