The debate is basically:

Finish Philly -> Enterprise -> Moon mining
or
Finish Philly -> Moon mining -> Enterprise
or
Finish Philly -> Do Columbia up through maybe Phase 3 -> The other two.

No no. I get that.

What I meant was are those our current goals in total, not the order in which we do them.

Like, in the orbital category, it's finish Philly, eventually finish Enterprise, do Moon mining, and some people want to do parts of Columbia.

Do we have any other active goals in orbitals or is that it for the foreseeable future?
 
I like the map, but...

Why are BZ-10 and BZ-19 distinct on that map? They're clearly a single territorial unit. Madagascar, at least, is an island and can reasonably maintain a separate designation, much as the British Isles and Japan are separate Blue Zones from the adjacent Blue Zone territory on the nearby European and Asian continental landmasses. But "BZ-19 South Mozambique" is just territorially adjacent to "BZ-10 South Africa." I understand the desire to avoid conflating the Blue Zone in the southern portion of the African continent with the historical country of South Africa, but it seems like that goal would be better served by naming BZ-10 "Southern Africa," a term with historical support and precedent in the international community.

They are distinct on the map because they are listed as such in both the CnC Lore and in this campaign:

-[ ] Reclamator Hub Blue Zone 10 (Progress 0/125) (Pretoria)
-[ ] Reclamator Hub Blue Zone 19 (Progress 0/125) (Maputo)

Pretoria is one of South Africa's three capital cities, and Maputo is the capital of Mozambique.
 
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Personally I favor a more genteel 13 dice per turn (all our Infrastructure and Tiberium dice in the post-Philadelphia Phase 5 world), which is still enough to net us a median roll of 13*50.5 + 6*29 + 7*32 = 1054 Progress on the first turn.

That alone gives us an 81.7% chance of finishing Phase 4 in a single turn (Phases 1+2+3+4 require a total of 975 Progress).

Putting one Free die on tiberium on top of that would give us a 95.0% chance of fully finishing Phase 4, and the median outcome would be about 175/1040 points of the way to Phase 5.

That lets us continue to use the bulk of our Free dice for Orbital projects (since we do still have station commitments) and continued military buildup (since the need for that doesn't go away).

And notably, even Phase 3 should be a substantial beachhead that the Indian warlord would be hard pressed to dislodge immediately, requiring major movements of troops, typically the sort of thing we get some advance notice of.
That would lead to us using more dice overall for the project. If we want Karachi finished by the end of Q2, we're going to want to use enough dice to get about 90%+ confidence in it finishing. But the less progress we've made beforehand, the more dice we'll need to use in Q4 to cut down on variance. Front-loading our dice in Q1 reduces the chaos and risks we'll face in finishing the project the turn after. Moreover, using more dice means more of GDI's efforts directed towards the project, and as we want to make a maximally shock-and-awe impact to take that territory, using less dice even if we finish Phase 4 in one turn still means it'll be at more risk.

Besides, we're not going to fall behind on Orbital and Military projects. We can spend more Free Dice on them in future turns; we're likely not going to be spending any in Orbital next turn since this turn we pushed so many into getting the Philadelphia to where it is now (only needing 4 dice to complete.) I think getting megaprojects like Karachi done as well as we can manage is worth temporarily redirecting our Free Dice usage for a couple turns.
 
I'm increasingly worried that Nod is going to soon try something very drastic. They know they lose the waiting game.
 
Honestly, the Great Warlord Dogpile may happen in 2059Q3 or Q4 anyway- we're already into the timeframe of the danger zone. It's just that if we wait past 2060Q2, we are nearly certainly going to have fought the Great Dogpile before we get Karachi done.
Well, exactly, and also if it does happen it doesn't really change our plans for those quarters. Military buildup and last-minute security reviews helps us just as well for an early Dogpile as it does for Karachi.

I'm also, semi-unreasonably, anticipating a quarter of no major NOD actions while the warlords get all their ducks in a row before the Dogpile begins in earnest.
 
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I'm expecting NOD to send us a distraction that heralds an incoming MASTERSTROKE at some point. The Warlords might just be that distraction.

<Suddenly, while everyone is distracted by warlords.>

Nod mind control tech is used on the parliament. They unanimously vote to give the dominion party representative emergency war powers and complete control of the GDI.

The dominion representative comes out from behind the curtain to give his acceptance speech.

"You all thought I was just that jerk in the back booing at every meeting"

<tears off one of his two mustaches>

"But , it was me, Kane, the whole time!"

"I love democracy."
 
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<Suddenly, while everyone is distracted by warlords.>

Nod mind control tech is used on the parliament. They unanimously vote to give the dominion party representative emergency war powers and complete control of the GDI.

The dominion representative comes out from behind the curtain to give his acceptance speech.

"You all thought I was just that jerk in the back booing at every meeting"

<tears off his second fake mustache>

"But , it was me, Kane, the whole time!"

"I love democracy."


The plot of T̶̢̖̰̮̳̦̟̬͎͌͂̓̃̈́͋̓̽́̆̓̎̄͘i̵͓̯̦̙͖̅͂͌͑͝b̷̨̧̧̨̧̛̩͓͕͖̠͎͉̬͖̮͔̻̗͈̫͓͑̓̀͠ę̵̛̩̘̠̣͖͚̱̗͉͕̹̬͇̀̐̚͜͜r̶̨̢͔̠̰̖͇̪͛̈́̊̏̿̓̏̈́́͒̏̈̈́̿̄̐̃̍͂̕͝í̷̢̧̺͈̝̣̳̹͉͙͓͖̝͉̲͉̫͈̍̐̑͐̉̃͘͠ͅù̴̱͍͓̦̞͚͔̙̙͙̻͙̮̼͎̩͖͉͎̦̣̔̌͒̀͑͊̑͌̆́̿̅͒͐͘͘̕͜͠m̷̧̢͖̟̥͙̖̭̘̘̣̼͇͈̦̪̫͕̩̬̀́͌̽̀̆̆͊͒͋̆̀̓̈́̏͝ͅ ̵̛͈̠͈͔͖̤̆͌́̍͘͜T̶̩̲̹̹̼̣̫̠̻̱͛͆̇̓̃̂͘͝w̵̨̢̛͈͚̳̠̯̼͎̱̖̤͈̰͚̺̩̰̯͓̉̃̾̎͐̔̎͊̌̅̄͂́͋͗̔̀͆̅̒͗́̇̍̂̆̚͠ͅĭ̶̡̙͖͔̹̱̮͎̱̟̫̜̺̟̱̝̞͕̬̟̺̟̐̄̿͗̒͒̊͐̉̌̽̐͐̒̚͜͝͠ͅļ̷̡̡̡̘̪͓̻̰͙͓̯̳̥͔̳͎̱̩̦̲̖͕͎̔̋̆̄̋͛̔͒̉͐̚͜͜͠ͅͅͅͅị̷͍̋̐̒̀̉̔̉̓̀̾̂͘̚͝g̴̛̞̖̞̼̬͈͇͕̱̗̤̣͔̥̦̯̗̝͕̔͂̊̔̈́́̂̒̌͋̀̇͛͛͋͛̅͂͊̍̋̚͜͝͠͠ĥ̷̝̺̬͇̹͕̗͕͈̼͇̦̝̣͈͙̳͉͔̻̻̥̮̤͔͖́́̉̓̒̍̇͑̽̓́͋̈͐͑̀͌͒̈́̿̔̃̒̚͘͝t̶̡̼̱̥̻̙̼͎̯̠͙͔͎̼͗̾̋͒̐͒̇̐̀̈̌̎̿̈́̐̊͘̕͝ is now to use the un-mindcontrolled sections of GDI's military to perform a coup and oust Kane.




This is complicated by the fact that the rest of the military is mind-controlled, and smoothed out by the fact that a load of NODdies aren't super happy with this turn of events either.
 
Feel like I just have to question this but why are we planning on doing the Karachi sprint, thus expanding the militaries responsibilities eating through our limited supply of consumables and stretching Zonecom even further before the Warlord gang pile which will likely hurt us somewhat anyway. I don't get why we don't build up for the incoming Gangpile and do Karachi sprint afterwards especially considering the Indian Warlord who's going to be our main opposition will have hopefully expended a considerable amount of their forces against us in the war and thus won't be able to put up as much of a fight?
 
Feel like I just have to question this but why are we planning on doing the Karachi sprint, thus expanding the militaries responsibilities eating through our limited supply of consumables and stretching Zonecom even further before the Warlord gang pile which will likely hurt us somewhat anyway. I don't get why we don't build up for the incoming Gangpile and do Karachi sprint afterwards especially considering the Indian Warlord who's going to be our main opposition will have hopefully expended a considerable amount of their forces against us in the war and thus won't be able to put up as much of a fight?
Two serious reasons and one non-serious reason.

Serious Reasons:
1. Because we're worried about the Himalayas being cut off and want to secure their logistics lines before we potentially lose access to a Blue Zone's productivity because they're under siege or at worst lose a Blue Zone entirely.
2. Because we're worried about NOD and want to put them on the back-foot instead of letting them just come at us.

Non-Serious Reasons:
1. Because it's a huge flex all over NOD.
 
This is going to be far in the future, but I really want to build up the navy and take Cuba. Expanding borders may cause a stretch in resources, but there is a turning point. Taking over the little bits of coast on the wester side of Africa, the eastern side of America, and all the islands in-between would secure the Atlantic Ocean. It wouldn't stop NOD ships and subs, but it would make it difficult for them. They would either need to set up naval bases in Red Zones or carry enough supplies for a long trip.

Something for the next plan, I guess. Now is the time to pack Pakistan full of GDI forces!
 
No no. I get that.

What I meant was are those our current goals in total, not the order in which we do them.

Like, in the orbital category, it's finish Philly, eventually finish Enterprise, do Moon mining, and some people want to do parts of Columbia.

Do we have any other active goals in orbitals or is that it for the foreseeable future?
Well, it'd be nice to get Orbital Cleanup done so we can try (probably next Plan) launching Low Orbit Support Satellites (which boost the military) and even Orbital Power Stations (which would take strain off Heavy Industry).

There's also the outstanding desire to develop the Conestoga-class gravity drive starships, follow-ons to the unique prototype Pathfinder.

But those are optional- in the short term they're on par with Columbia in that we didn't promise to do them, and since they're unlikely to have any massive political impact they're also behind Columbia.

Q4 is after the monsoon season. Pakistan is not India.
Fair enough- but waiting until 2060Q4 has other complications, as well. There are reasons to want this project done sooner, rather than later, and the military isn't weak at the present time.

We've consistently been holding our own (or better) in battles, and while there are certainly things the military wants done that we haven't done, that is a literally endless treadmill. As long as Nod continues to exist, the military will want more and better weapons of every kind, subject only to some degree of prioritization as to which kinds of weapons they want to improve most and first.

That would lead to us using more dice overall for the project. If we want Karachi finished by the end of Q2, we're going to want to use enough dice to get about 90%+ confidence in it finishing. But the less progress we've made beforehand, the more dice we'll need to use in Q4 to cut down on variance. Front-loading our dice in Q1 reduces the chaos and risks we'll face in finishing the project the turn after. Moreover, using more dice means more of GDI's efforts directed towards the project, and as we want to make a maximally shock-and-awe impact to take that territory, using less dice even if we finish Phase 4 in one turn still means it'll be at more risk.
Using thirteen dice is still an enormous investment, more than we've ever spent in a single turn on anything whatsoever including the stabilizer constellation. 260 RpT, the budget investment associated with that, is something in the neighborhood of 15% of GDI's gross domestic product for that quarter. Something broadly comparable to the US spending $700 billion dollars in three months, for instance.

Also, I honestly don't think it'll be a huge problem if we're doing the last couple of dice worth of construction in 2060Q3 as long as we've got the vast supermajority of the project done in the first two turns. Among other things, because by definition this is an infrastructure megaproject in Pakistan. By the time we've built up to Phase 4+ and are closing in on Phase 5 of the project, we've done enough infrastructure development that continuing construction work during the monsoon season will of necessity be at least possible.

Besides, we're not going to fall behind on Orbital and Military projects. We can spend more Free Dice on them in future turns; we're likely not going to be spending any in Orbital next turn since this turn we pushed so many into getting the Philadelphia to where it is now (only needing 4 dice to complete.)
That's meaningless. We're talking about budgeting for 2060Q1 and 'Q2 when the Karachi Sprint is underway, not budgeting for 2059Q3.

In those future turns next year, Free dice spent on Karachi are by definition Free dice not spent on Orbital or Military. By the time we reach that point, how many Free dice we spent on those categories in 2059Q3 and 'Q4 will be water under the bridge.

I sincerely think that allocating all the Free dice to the project in 2060Q1 is a case of "the perfect is the enemy of the good" in action.

I'm expecting NOD to send us a distraction that heralds an incoming MASTERSTROKE at some point. The Warlords might just be that distraction.
Maybe, but remember that Kane has every reason to refocus on his canon plan (build TCN, use it to leave Earth).

He has other viable plans he can use, but most of them become less and less viable as GDI gets stronger, so all of them are already dicey. Remember, his Tib War One plan seems to have relied on beating GDI in a straight fight and he lost badly. In Tib War Two he seems to have had a "world altering" plan that didn't involve beating GDI in a straight fight. In Tib War Three he seems to have actively summoned something to fight GDI while maneuvering to seize a key location and barely even caring that GDI was beating Nod forces like a drum.

I'm honestly not sure if Kane, personally, has a "masterstroke" planned that will hurt GDI, because it's not clear whether he considers it beneficial to his own interests that GDI be harmed anymore.

On the other hand, he might actually be planning a Fourth Tiberium War in hopes of cutting GDI back far enough to force us to work with him more subserviently out of desperation (as happened in the canon timeline because of GDI's total failure to contain the spread of tiberium).

Feel like I just have to question this but why are we planning on doing the Karachi sprint, thus expanding the militaries responsibilities eating through our limited supply of consumables and stretching Zonecom even further before the Warlord gang pile which will likely hurt us somewhat anyway. I don't get why we don't build up for the incoming Gangpile and do Karachi sprint afterwards especially considering the Indian Warlord who's going to be our main opposition will have hopefully expended a considerable amount of their forces against us in the war and thus won't be able to put up as much of a fight?
1) We have "finish Karachi" as a Plan commitment.

2) Finishing Karachi would greatly strengthen our position in terms of holding the Himalayan Blue Zone, a target likely to be vulnerable to Nod attack during the Great Warlord Dogpile.

3) Having Karachi present as a major GDI base in Pakistan will refocus the Indian warlord (or warlords') attention on their own home territory, making them less able to meddle randomly elsewhere in the world in places where they'd be more likely to hurt GDI civilians or key industry.

For all these reasons, it is highly desirable to have Karachi up and running.

4) We want to avoid doing major construction work in Pakistan during Q3 of any year because of monsoons, arguably not even during Q4 though that's probably less bad. Ideally, we also don't want to have lots of unfinished construction lying around during Q3 of any year for the monsoons to tear up.

5) Once Karachi is established, the Indian Noddies will start hitting it hard, probably very soon after construction begins (like, the next turn or the turn after at the latest). This makes it risky to do the construction slowly. A finished Karachi is a huge base with lots of good fortifications, so our troops can defend it easily. An unfinished Karachi is much more of a problem to defend, and is in effect a bigger overextension of our military than the project would be finished.

6) Because the Great Warlord Dogpile could happen at any time, we want the military benefits of Karachi sooner rather than later, if we can get them. If it diverts the Indian Noddies' efforts into repelling an invasion threat instead of being totally free to assist other Nod warlords, that's not necessarily a bad thing; it's the kind of action that in military terms is often called a "spoiling attack." It can be very advantageous to launch an attack on the enemy's troops as they are massing and preparing for their own onslaught, because they usually won't be expecting it and it often catches them while they're more focused on prepping themselves and less focused on self-defense.

For these reasons, it is desirable to have Karachi up and running quickly.
 
4) We want to avoid doing major construction work in Pakistan during Q3 of any year because of monsoons, arguably not even during Q4 though that's probably less bad. Ideally, we also don't want to have lots of unfinished construction lying around during Q3 of any year for the monsoons to tear up.
I'd say Q2 is more risky than Q4. The monsoon is well gone by October. Except for over NOD in India.
Whereas, if something runs a little late during Q2, people don't have time to settle in properly before it tips down/NOD attack under monsoon cover.
 
Krukov has continued to gather strength, drawing in a number of the peripheral warlords that nominally had held allegiance to Reynaldo. However, he has also been significantly more cautious, beginning to move factory components to parts unknown. While InOps has attempted to make headway in finding the new locations, they have so far eluded detection.
Ah crap. For Krukov to be accepting the inefficiencies of going max paranoia on the factory move, either he knows we have his commander and that he's singing, or more likely he's cannibalizing his own stuff to push that secret project past the finish line.

Ithillid thankfully confirmed on discord that it's not the fusion peaker plant superlaser, but even with auroras it's looking like the deployment of whatever it is is now a matter of when, not if. Hopefully we delay it long enough that it doesn't complicate Karachi.
[ ] Aurora Strike Bomber Development
A variant of the existing Apollo fighter, the Aurora will be a means of penetrating even the most fortified of Nod territories with near impunity, striking targets near the front, and escaping before the Brotherhood can scramble a response. While likely more lightly armed than the Firehawk, it will be able to remove key elements of Brotherhood defenses.
(Progress 42/40: 15 resources per die)
[8]

The Aurora sacrifices everything for speed. While it shares much of its design with its Apollo cousin, there are many notable differences. For one the engine arrangement. While the Apollo has pretensions of being able to operate at lower speeds, the Aurora does not. This has meant a redesign of the engine arrangement. While the Apollo uses a pair of low bypass Turbojets, the Aurora adds to them with a third Scramjet engine between the other two. In normal operations, the Aurora will come onto its axis of attack well short of enemy positions at a mach 3 supercruise, and then initiate the scramjet to send it screaming well over mach 4, and can even push mach 5 under certain circumstances, at least in early test flights.

Beyond that, there is the weapons arrangement. While the Apollo technically can, and sometimes does, carry a substantial load of external armament, the Aurora is a significantly more specialized aircraft, and so every external hardpoint that does not absolutely need to be there (such as a pair of external drop tank points to extend the range) has been deleted. Instead, it is wrapped around two modular bays rated for three tonnes each, each able to carry a pair of heavy bunker busters– ones suitable for cracking through mountainous terrain with little collateral damage– or a suite of smaller payloads, such as 100kg inertial guided bombs or munitions sleds. These sleds are relatively simple affairs, equipped with a set of delayed release drogue chutes, used to bring the missiles down into their usable airspeed ranges, as attempting to launch at too high velocities can produce problems with the guidance system.

The reason for this is a fundamental problem with air defense in the modern world. It is unfortunately short ranged. At a speed of over a kilometer per second during combat operations, an Aurora can cross through the entire threat envelope of any modern defense system, likely before the system can reorient to launch, and has enough speed that some defensive systems, at times cannot retarget fast enough to get an angle for more than a split second. When paired with glide bombs, it is nearly immune to any weapon the Brotherhood of Nod has in its current arsenal.
Pictured: schematics for the new strategic bomber


The Liquid Tiberium Power Cell as developed is a small scale power supply. Fifty liters of liquid Tiberium is wrapped in a Tiberium Glass containment cell. As needed, electricity is fed into the containment unit, which then produces approximately three times the energy fed into it as the Tiberium inside decomposes. While the decomposition is slow, it is noticeable, with the reactant needing to be replaced about every six months as energy output declines and there is a buildup of toxic and potentially highly reactive substances in the chamber. The cell is wrapped in stator coils which harvest the decomposition energy from the cell. While a far cry from the Brotherhood's version with hundreds of liters of Liquid Tiberium and having some 100 to 400 megawatts of power pumped into it, it is also far safer. T-Glass provides a noticeable safety improvement over the glass or ALON that the Brotherhood uses. Beyond that, the plant can be safely contained within a sonic fence, and an armored bunker that would contain and channel a detonation to prevent widespread contamination. With a footprint little larger than a backup power generator or substation, these can be a useful secondary source of power, one that can be deployed at significant political cost, but a limited economic one.
Been some discussions on discord about this today - some key points:

  • The main benefit of liquid tib power is not that it's cheap (though it is marginally cheaper), but that it produces power comparable to fusion while using tib dice instead of HI dice - this resolves our single greatest bottleneck, the fact that we previously needed to use HI dice for both energy and capgoods while capgoods takes lots of energy. With 3-4 tib dice side by side appropriate HI investment, we can escape the cycle of capgoods poverty early, especially with the reveal that more phases of offshore tib harvesting are on their way.
  • Risk factors are that even with bunkering they can still be targeted by Catalyst weapons, and their design fundamentally requires them to be located at existing power plants which in turn will generally be located in or near industrial parks. They're a new glowing weakspot, if we go for them.
  • Risk mitigations are as follows:
    • Ithillid has confirmed that the bunkering "can reduce the blast radius" of a catalyst detonation of the liquid tib inside, but not stop it.
    • City PD's early phases protect industrial centers - which as per the risks section, will almost certainly include the locations where liquid tib power gets deployed.
    • Green zones and forward operations make tactical missile attacks on our infrastructure more difficult, as shown by how Stahl's cruise missile strike was shut down by being forced to launch early.
    • Nod very, very, very much does not want GDI to capture and reverse engineer an intact catalyst warhead, and Kane doesn't want to risk a nod warlord managing the same. A shadow team backpacking a catalyst device into place in lieu of a missile is an unlikely choice of delivery method.
    • Most importantly: The only person who can produce catalyst devices is Kane and his inner circle, and that capability is jealously guarded - thus the question of how willing and able nod is to use them is actually a question of how willing and able Kane is to use them. Kane's grand strategy is to produce leverage to negotiate for access to GDI's industrial base - the very same industrial base that catalyst attacks on tib power stations would compromise. While the threat-in-being of catalyst weapons may give him more leverage at the bargaining table, he is incredibly unlikely to actually target liquid tib power stations with them unless we totally blow him off.
The bottom line? Liquid tib power has risks... but manageable ones. Handled correctly, they would let us do horse shit like getting +32 energy in a single turn by combining it with a round of fusion, or make a plan that floors the accellerator on nuuk or HI sectors energy neutral, if not energy positive.

It is, in context, a potential solution to the single most significant economic bottleneck we have, one that has dogged us all game. Something like that in hand could move up the deployment of zone armor by half a year or more - to say nothing of the cap goods-intensive projects that have been getting previewed lately.

So, for all the guff it's gotten... I'd just like to state that I do consider it to be a legitimate option. The risks are real - but the rewards are nothing to scoff at.
 
  • Risk factors are that even with bunkering they can still be targeted by Catalyst weapons, and their design fundamentally requires them to be located at existing power plants which in turn will generally be located in or near industrial parks. They're a new glowing weakspot, if we go for them.
That's...not great. Not at all. That makes a multikiloton T-dirty bomb a lot less manageable.
  • Most importantly: The only person who can produce catalyst devices is Kane and his inner circle, and that capability is jealously guarded - thus the question of how willing and able nod is to use them is actually a question of how willing and able Kane is to use them. Kane's grand strategy is to produce leverage to negotiate for access to GDI's industrial base - the very same industrial base that catalyst attacks on tib power stations would compromise. While the threat-in-being of catalyst weapons may give him more leverage at the bargaining table, he is incredibly unlikely to actually target liquid tib power stations with them unless we totally blow him off.
If Ithillid said the bolded...that changes things. That changes things a lot.

If we go for Liquid TIberium, particularly as hard as we would have to to go full Nuuks+T, we lock ourselves into at best a negotiated settlement with NOD. (Not totally--we can reduce the threat with more ASAT and SADNs, more LRSS and stealth disrupters, etc etc--but we can't fully eliminate the risk of losing a Blue Zone if Kane goes nuclear.)

On the other hand, now that we apparently know what Kane's gameplan is, we can be fairly confident that any masterstroke he does will 1.Not touch industry, and 2.will at least try to leave enough of a government to negotiate with.
 
We'll have to see what the option looks like in planning but I'm optimistic.

Energy is a big bottleneck and I think the plants might be worth it now.

So the more new tech and development we do in the future, the better the plants will get.
 
I'd say Q2 is more risky than Q4. The monsoon is well gone by October. Except for over NOD in India.
Whereas, if something runs a little late during Q2, people don't have time to settle in properly before it tips down/NOD attack under monsoon cover.
Hmrm.

If that's true, then we have a good argument for the 13-die "soft sprint" option, because in 2059Q4 when we start the Sprint, tight Resources and the need to build up the military will both be in full force, making it prohibitive to throw many Free dice at the project.

Then we have two turns to finish Phase 5 of the project before the monsoon comes back, getting most of it done in 2059Q1 and worst case wrapping up in Q2.

Risk factors are that even with bunkering they can still be targeted by Catalyst weapons, and their design fundamentally requires them to be located at existing power plants which in turn will generally be located in or near industrial parks. They're a new glowing weakspot, if we go for them.

Risk mitigations are as follows:

Ithillid has confirmed that the bunkering "can reduce the blast radius" of a catalyst detonation of the liquid tib inside, but not stop it.
@Ithillid described the yield of a liquid tiberium reactor triggered by a catalyst missile as being single-digit kilotons.

The dangerous radius of that, in the sense of "actually causes enough serious damage to a well-built structure that it's likely to cause months of disruption," is measured in the low single digit kilometers.

So the obvious move is to have the power plant in location A, run several kilometers of high-tension power cable over to the liquid tiberium reactors at location B, and then run several kilometers of high tension power cable from those over to the actual factory at location C.

It is, in context, a potential solution to the single most significant economic bottleneck we have, one that has dogged us all game. Something like that in hand could move up the deployment of zone armor by half a year or more - to say nothing of the cap goods-intensive projects that have been getting previewed lately.
Very true. And it's especially attractive in places with a whole lot of 'nothing' to spread out facilities into, to the point where one of your power plants going up like a ten kiloton bomb is merely inconvenient for anyone not immediately operating the power plant in question.

Such as Greenland, hint hint.

That's...not great. Not at all. That makes a multikiloton T-dirty bomb a lot less manageable.
Really? I mean, yes, it'd be insanity to park that right next to the plant (though a catalyst missile capable of triggering the tiberium explosion would have to get through defenses, and they could have just lobbed a nuke at your facility for very similar effect).

But scattering these out in areas where there's some room to work with should be feasible, and they're fifty-megawatt power plants. It's not actually hard, from an engineering standpoint, to figure out places to put them and move the energy from Point A to Point B.

If we go for Liquid TIberium, particularly as hard as we would have to to go full Nuuks+T, we lock ourselves into at best a negotiated settlement with NOD. (Not totally--we can reduce the threat with more ASAT and SADNs, more LRSS and stealth disrupters, etc etc--but we can't fully eliminate the risk of losing a Blue Zone if Kane goes nuclear.)
Eh? I mean... how is the situation that different with or without the liquid tiberium plants? I don't see how it makes much of a difference to our long-term capacity to defeat Nod.

If liquid tiberium plants were likely to have the potential to blow up like fifty-megaton bombs or something, then we'd be out of our minds to build them. This is different.
 
That's...not great. Not at all. That makes a multikiloton T-dirty bomb a lot less manageable.

If Ithillid said the bolded...that changes things. That changes things a lot.

If we go for Liquid TIberium, particularly as hard as we would have to to go full Nuuks+T, we lock ourselves into at best a negotiated settlement with NOD. (Not totally--we can reduce the threat with more ASAT and SADNs, more LRSS and stealth disrupters, etc etc--but we can't fully eliminate the risk of losing a Blue Zone if Kane goes nuclear.)

On the other hand, now that we apparently know what Kane's gameplan is, we can be fairly confident that any masterstroke he does will 1.Not touch industry, and 2.will at least try to leave enough of a government to negotiate with.
We've known Kane's gameplan since Turn 1.

Kane wants his Ascension, he needs his version of the TCN to do that. He got the Tacitus, so his plans are on schedule, and at some point he's going to approach us with the Tacitus and TCN plans in hand and try to get us to the negotiating table because he needs our industrial base to build the TCN for him. Once he has his version of the TCN built he should fuck off with his favorite NODdies to somewhere Not Here, and honestly it's a pretty good deal for us. The main downside is that we don't get to bring Kane to justice for all the bullshit he's pulled, but on the other hand we get to save the Earth and it puts us in a good position for the SequelQuest so it's worth it.

Really, what we've been doing all quest has been trying to put ourselves into a better spot at the negotiating table. Considering that Canon!GDI was literally being eaten alive by Red Zones to the point of 2% of Earth's surface area being habitable by the time the TCN was built and conducting TCN negotiations in the middle of a Red Zone that used to be a GDI HQ building, we're doing much better than that. We still want to be in the best spot possible though so we can wring that bald bastard for as many shinies as we can get.
 
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If Ithillid said the bolded...that changes things. That changes things a lot.
Kane needs GDI industry to build the TCN - that's more or less been public information since the start of the quest, as this is basically an AU of Tiberium Twilight's prologue. Ithillid gives occasional updates on what Kane's headspace is on when/how he'll make his offer.

There's rolls for it, even. Though we don't get to see them.

As for what he said on the willingness to use cat weapons in particular though, have the direct quote:



Take note that he doesn't explicitly state anything about Kane's willingness to cat
Missile the power stations under normal conditions - just that he'd do it anyways if we blow him off. That he normally wouldn't should be taken as inference, not word of god.
 
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1) We have "finish Karachi" as a Plan commitment.
Technically, we only have to finish up to Phase 4 of 5, but finishing Phase 5 is a good idea.

Now, I have some issues with the argument that it will be effective as a spoiling attack, but it could well do so.

Regarding Catalyst missiles, it's worth noting that while Kane does tightly control them, he's not the only one with access. We should absolutely not assume that just because Kane would like to have GDI's industry mostly intact, that people he allows access to will share the same value judgements. And it's quite possible that a sabotage-minded Shadow Team could infiltrate and blow the plant with less damage but as much spread of Tiberium.

Are Liquid Tib powerplants worth it? IMO, not until we complete at least 2 phases of the SAD anti-missile emplacements.
 
Technically, we only have to finish up to Phase 4 of 5, but finishing Phase 5 is a good idea.

Now, I have some issues with the argument that it will be effective as a spoiling attack, but it could well do so.

Regarding Catalyst missiles, it's worth noting that while Kane does tightly control them, he's not the only one with access. We should absolutely not assume that just because Kane would like to have GDI's industry mostly intact, that people he allows access to will share the same value judgements. And it's quite possible that a sabotage-minded Shadow Team could infiltrate and blow the plant with less damage but as much spread of Tiberium.

Are Liquid Tib powerplants worth it? IMO, not until we complete at least 2 phases of the SAD anti-missile emplacements.
Tbf I would really like to do SAD as soon as Karachi starts up so that we can dig in harder. I'd do it before but before I'd rather focus on stuff that lets us take Karachi AND hold Karachi as opposed to just the bits that let us hold Karachi.
 
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