By not costing 4 energy and 2 logistics per stage in the middle of an energy and logistics crunch. I do not believe a single stage of processing plants will be enough to unlock the refurbishment project, and I have always couched my advocacy for tib storage in terms of wanting it as a more affordable, guaranteed to work route to resolving issues that otherwise would require overbuilding our capacity.
You do realize that for that to work, we'd need to build enough tiberium storage that we could store all the tiberium that would normally be processed by those plants during their shutdown period?

If we want to do the refits quickly, that's going to require a much, much greater quantity of storage capacity than we'd normally need just for emergencies. Especially if we're already building the Stage 1 refineries anyway, which give us so much surplus refining capacity that we'd have very little need of any silo capacity in the short term.

But like, suppose we wanted to refit 25% of our existing as of 2058Q3 refining capacity outside of Mecca and Chicago. That's somewhere in the vicinity of 250-300 points of refining capacity we'd need to take offline.

Now, if we're planning for those refineries to be offline and for the tiberium to go into silos, then we'd need 750-900 points worth of tiberium storage capacity, which we'd then have to refine slowly after the new plants came online. And we'd need to refill and re-empty those silos again, in about four rounds of major refits.

That's a lot more silo capacity than we'd need just because one set of refineries is offline, after we already have the Stage 1 refineries. Because then we'll have roughly 600 RpT of surplus capacity, making it easy to switch 250-300 points of refining capacity offline for refits. Something we cannot do without building a quite sizeable array of silos.

I strongly suspect that the silos you would need to build for your version of this plan are going to be very expensive, to the point where "just build more plants" is a competitive option.

The fragility of our infrastructure to nod sabotage is an issue right now. The need to supplement our income without further glacier mines through projects such as refinery refurbishment is here right now. The opportunity to improve our next gen harvester will pass if we don't get experience with the tech right now.
I'm not saying "don't build some silos."

But realistically, the solution to our "fragile infrastructure" problem is "just build the stage 1 refineries, lol." Because having those gives us a huge infusion of surplus capacity, and we can easily finish a second stage a year or so from now, when we will still have a huge amount of surplus capacity, even if the amount is less huge then than it is now.

(Refinery refits, at least based on the tech we have now, don't increase our income; they increase our income cap)

The idea that storage will be similarly costly to refineries outright is basically the same as saying that storage is pointless - that the technology has no possible purpose in our infrastructure, including in harvesters since they'd be subject to that energy need too. Somehow, I don't think it's literally a trap option meant to waste our time and money.
No, but I won't be surprised if it turns out that the silos cost, say, -1 Energy per 100 units of tiberium stored.

In which case running enough silos to let us shut down a large fraction of all the old pre-2050 tiberium refineries at once could cost something like -6 or -8 Energy... at which point it's not saving us Energy compared to building more refineries.

The silos aren't a trap option, but that doesn't mean they'll turn out to be a superior alternative to just pausing briefly after building Stage 1 of the refineries, and then building Stage 2 of the refineries.

We should build at least a few storage facilities as a routine precaution. And soon.

But I don't think we actually need or should desire them as a superior alternative to solving our immediate predicament, because I do not expect them to be a superior solution when compared to the refineries.
 
By not costing 4 energy and 2 logistics per stage in the middle of an energy and logistics crunch. I do not believe a single stage of processing plants will be enough to unlock the refurbishment project, and I have always couched my advocacy for tib storage in terms of wanting it as a more affordable, guaranteed to work route to resolving issues that otherwise would require overbuilding our capacity.


The fragility of our infrastructure to nod sabotage is an issue right now. The need to supplement our income without further glacier mines through projects such as refinery refurbishment is here right now. The opportunity to improve our next gen harvester will pass if we don't get experience with the tech right now.

The idea that storage will be similarly costly to refineries outright is basically the same as saying that storage is pointless - that the technology has no possible purpose in our infrastructure, including in harvesters since they'd be subject to that energy need too. Somehow, I don't think it's literally a trap option meant to waste our time and money.

We are, right now, in the most apt circumstances for getting tib storage that will ever exist. No, not even nod sabotage - in that case, our only option would be to crash build refineries because of lead time since we haven't developed the tech right now, and then we'd be right back to "we have enough capacity". If this isn't the right time to do it, there will never be a right time.
We're not actually in a Logistics crunch right now, though. We've got +7,which is solidly in the black. That could go down fairly quickly in the event of a coordinated Nod push, yes, but we have enough slack that even that isn't likely to push us below "meeting demand" for a quarter or so. Unless we start doing massive - Logistics projects, we should be fine, though more never hurts. It's the Energy cost that stings right now.
 
GreenBird
My family is moving into one of the old blue zone habitats soon! They told me the last people to live here kept complaining about the crampedness and the sparse amenities, but when the GDI service worker showed us pictures and explained all the rules for living in them I was blown away! Sensors at the doorways to make sure no Tiberium dust? Suit free in the buildings? That's incredible. And my school is only 30 minutes away! By bus! The last time I got a ride was on the outside of a ruined buggy my dad fixed up. Now I get to ride a car everyday

Stuff like this makes me happy to spend on construction. Like this is a huge standard of living increase for these people.

Ground Forces
In the wake of the Northern Campaign and the success of the GDI in what amounts to contest of steel and with the sacrifice of the Arkhangelsk's Fourth and Fifth, there has been something of a minor propagandist coup, as the refugees who continued to stream into GDI territories made the choice to fight in the edge of GDI's holdings and filling new Home Guard formations that were kept at understrength sizes. More than that, the politely overlooked reality is that a significant part of the Home Guard cadre had been those who fought on the other side and brought with them significant skills and capability that can't be overlooked. With the surfeit of applicants, the InOps were able to simultaneously tighten and expand vetting process, not only picking semi-trained recruits but also fast-tracking officer candidates. While this could lead to a propensity of sacrifice and heroics among the Home Guard, revisions of the officer curriculum would hopefully temper them against this inclination. (-2 Labour for Q4 2058 and Q1 2059)

Nice. Another tool in the arsenal against Nod.

A single strike could cripple years of developmental work, and leave the Initiative far poorer than it could have been. At the same time, it has become increasingly clear that the Initiative needs to diversify their Tiberium refining locations, not only to try and replace the previous Mobius and Mobius Granger process facilities, but to simply harden the system against attack. Additionally, the simple strain of transporting to and from large centralized facilities is likely to become increasingly problematic if the Treasury continues its focus on single massive complexes.

Yikes. Whelp three guesses what Kane is looking at.

The gas is insidious, seeping through every gas mask and filter GDI can design short of total isolation

So basically we have to make armor what amounts to space suits to avoid this.

Captured copies provide insight into a system that, while not as advanced or effective as Zone Armor, can be used to seriously slim down the armor as a whole, while actually increasing effectiveness, and will likely serve as a second and third line platform for GDI infantry overall.

So we can give our frontline units Zone armor and support units these suits.

However, it is likely to revolutionize field logistics and over the beach operations, alongside a significant number of port operations, as when they are deployed GDI will no longer need nearly so much infrastructure to handle loading and unloading ships

This is kind of understated but I'm betting this will be our next logistics upgrade for our ports and rail infrastructure.

Finally, a shield tuned to kinetic impact can detonate standard impact fuses as much as two meters short of their target, but does little against standoff munitions, and has problems with heavier, or delayed, fusings

Would it be possible to use these on our Green zone bases that face bombardment?
 
So, judging by the update to @Derpmind 's Probability Array, something new came down the pipeline at the discord.

I've been avoiding the discord for some time now to avoid getting sucked into another flame war.

Anyone care to fill me in on Vulcan in particular? I'm presuming another industrial station, but what sort?
 
By not costing 4 energy and 2 logistics per stage in the middle of an energy and logistics crunch. I do not believe a single stage of processing plants will be enough to unlock the refurbishment project, and I have always couched my advocacy for tib storage in terms of wanting it as a more affordable, guaranteed to work route to resolving issues that otherwise would require overbuilding our capacity.
At 200 progress and 3 die for 600 processing capacity, odds are that it makes zero economic sense to refurbish any old refineries instead of simply building new ones. Especially if we have to build an overflow of storage facilities to store unprocessed Tiberium on site in the interim, with all the safety implications thereof.

Tib silos might well be worth a die in their own right. Possibly as a hedge against accidents or sabotage or breakdown.
But I dont think refurbishment is likely to be a justification for it.
 
So, judging by the update to @Derpmind 's Probability Array, something new came down the pipeline at the discord.

I've been avoiding the discord for some time now to avoid getting sucked into another flame war.

Anyone care to fill me in on Vulcan in particular? I'm presuming another industrial station, but what sort?

We'll be seeing this sometime soon, but according to the discord:

[ ] GDIS Vulcan (Phase 1) (New)
With the asteroid belt opened to construction by the Pathfinder, it is now possible to begin building a station for semipermanent operations in the region. While it is months or years by conventional vessel, Pathfinder can make the journey in a matter of days. However, Pathfinder is merely one ship, and a station on the far end, while isolated, can begin exploiting the belt's rich resources.
(No more than 1 die per turn)
(Progress 0/80: 20 resources per die) (Unlocks 1 phase of asteroid belt mines)
(Progress 0/165: 20 resources per die) (Unlocks 2 phases of asteroid belt mines)

This will unlock asteroid mines, isn't a mine itself, and the mines will count for the plan goals. More details to come in the next quest post.
 
So, judging by the update to @Derpmind 's Probability Array, something new came down the pipeline at the discord.

I've been avoiding the discord for some time now to avoid getting sucked into another flame war.

Anyone care to fill me in on Vulcan in particular? I'm presuming another industrial station, but what sort?
Vulcan is listed as GDIS while our current stations are GDSS, also Contesga class is new as well. Says vulcan is limited to 1 die per turn right now
 
So it turns out the bigass sonic cannon project probably only costs two dice and might finish with one, making it a good candidate for a two-turn slow-walk. Also, it only costs 10 R/die, so that's 5 R compared to my estimates. Those 5 R, plus the 5 R freed by turning Advanced EVAs back into Emergency Tiberium Infusions because we haven't lost a ton of Political Support and can afford a little SCIENCE!!!... Well, those 10 R go into a fourth refinery die.

One change I did make was to convert a Vein Mining die into a Refineries die, assuring us of actually completing the refineries.

2058Q4 BUDGET:
715 R (yay, taxes!)
6 Free dice

710/715 Resources spent
6/6 Free Dice allocated

[] Plan Draft WELP 1-F

Infrastructure 5/5 Dice 70 R
-[] Rail Network Construction Campaigns (Phase 2) 15/275 (4 Dice, 60 R) (78% chance)
-[] Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 2) 28/160 (1 Die, 10R) (6% chance)

Heavy Industry 4/4 Dice + 2 Free Dice 120 R
-[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plant (Phase 2) 22/300 (6 Dice, 120 R) (98% chance, median ~127/300 on next phase)

Light and Chemical Industry 2/4 Dice 40 R
-[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 2) 1/160 (2 Dice, 40 R) (33% chance)

Agriculture 3/3 Dice 30 R
-[] Perennial Aquaponics Bays (Stage 2) 123/350 (3 Dice, 30 R) (32% chance)

Tiberium 6/6 Dice 160 R
-[] Tiberium Processing Plants (Stage 1) 0/200 (4 Dice, 120 R) (98% chance, median 100/??? on Stage 2)
-[] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 1) 0/200 (2 Dice, 40 R) (22% chance)

Orbital 5/5 Dice + 2 Free Dice 140 R
-[] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 4) 362/710 (7 dice, 140 R) (95% chance, median ~100/1430 on next phase)

Services 4/4 Dice 45 R
-[] Green Zone Teacher Colleges (2 Dice, 10 R) (13% chance)
-[] Tissue Replacement Therapy Development 0/60 (1 Die, 20 R) (78% chance)
-[] Emergency Tiberium Infusion Development 0/120 (1 Die, 15 R, -5 PS) (18% chance)

Military 6/6 Dice + 2 Free Dice 110 R
-[] Naval Defense Laser Refits 121/330 (3 Dice, 45 R) (50% chance)
-[] Tube Artillery Deployment 0/200 (3 Dice, 45 R) (57% chance)
-[] Pacifier MAV Deployment 0/120 (1 Die, 10 R) (10% chance)
-[] Havoc Scout Mech Deployment 0/30 (1 Die, 10 R) (100% chance)

Bureaucracy 0/3 Dice
-[] ???
 
Last edited:
No, but I won't be surprised if it turns out that the silos cost, say, -1 Energy per 100 units of tiberium stored.
I would be sense it appears to be a material science which does not seem to use power to mantain, but I could be wrong.
[ ] Improved Tiberium Containment Facilities Development
While Tiberium has often been siloed in various steps of the processing system, long term storage has often been elusive. However, with a study of the Corruptor's handling system, and the tiberium blend found in its holding cell, it should prove useful in allowing GDI to create a strategic reserve in case production ever overruns processing capacity.
(Progress 0/40: 25 resources per die)
My guess from this is that tiberium blend is stable as in it does not grow, consume, mutate, and strongly resists tiberium consumption (if not completely resisting it), but it probably does not make a good structural material.
 
Last edited:
[] Plan Fixing the Backend
Infra 5/5 65R +22
-[] Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 2) 28/160 2 dice 20R 74%
-[] Rail Network Construction Campaigns (Phase 2) 15/275 3 dice 45R 30%
HI 4/4+2 free 120R +17
-[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plant (Phase 2) 22/300 6 die 120R 98%
LCI 4/4 80R +12
-[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 2) 1/160 4 dice 80R 97%
Agri 2/3 20R +12
-[] Security Review (Agri) 1 die
-[] Wadmalaw Kudzu Development 0/40 1 die 20R 93%
Tiberium 6/6 150R +25
-[] Tiberium Prospecting Expeditions (Repeating Stage) 2/200 3 dice 15R 80%
-[] Red Zone Containment Lines (Stage 5) 74/180 1 die 25R 35%
-[] Tiberium Processing Plants (Stage 1) 0/200 3 die 60R 79%
Orbital 5/5+3 free 160R +10
-[] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 4) 362/710 7 dice 140R 95%
-[] GDIS Vulcan (Phase 1) (New) 0/80 1 die 20R 46%
Services 4/4 35R +17
-[] Green Zone Teacher Colleges 0/200 3 dice 15R 63%
-[] Tissue Replacement Therapy Development 0/60 1 die 20R 78%
Military 6/6+1 105R +14
-[] Sonic Artillery 0/??? 1 die 15R?
-[] Orca Refit Deployment 0/200 2 dice 30R 10%
-2nd die on Sonic or 3rd die on Orca (15R)
-[] Naval Defense Laser Refits 121/330 3 dice 45R 50%
Bureau 3/3 +12
-[] Security Reviews (Agri) 3 dice +1 Agri 99%
Free 6/6
1 bureau, 3 orbital, 2 HI
1 idle die

715/715

So adding Vulcan and going to 3 dice on processing plants. No idea what asteroid mining costs and gets us but at a 1 die per turn we should push vulcan each turn
 
Last edited:
At 200 progress and 3 die for 600 processing capacity, odds are that it makes zero economic sense to refurbish any old refineries instead of simply building new ones.
To be fair, it would probably make sense to refurbish the old refineries if by doing so we avoid the extra Logistics and Energy costs of doing so.

But the way you'd do it would be by building a bunch of new ones, then switching off the old ones as they become redundant, then refitting them to the new standard.

We'll be seeing this sometime soon, but according to the discord:

This will unlock asteroid mines, isn't a mine itself, and the mines will count for the plan goals. More details to come in the next quest post.
Mm. Very tempting, especially if asteroid mines turn out to be relatively cheap. On the other hand, any 'extra' capacity we have in the second half of the Four Year Plan after finishing the Philadelphia and MAYBE cramming in Phase 1 and/or 2 of Columbia will mostly be reserved for Enterprise and/or Columbia. There's not a lot of room to do a whole 'nother station to a high level of completion... I dunno. We're gonna have to think about it.

For now, though, we're almost certainly committed to just finishing the Philadelphia, so it's a moot point in the short term.

I would be sense it appears to be a material science which does not seem to use power to mantain, but I could be wrong.
My guess from this is that tiberium blend is stable as in it does not grow, consume, and strongly resists tiberium consumption (if not completely resisting it), but it probably does not make a good structural material.
I'd love it if you turned out to be right.

So adding Vulcan and going to 3 dice on processing plants. No idea what asteroid mining costs and gets us but at a 1 die per turn we should push vulcan each turn
I don't think we should do so yet, though, because it risks delaying the completion of the Philadelphia (though I think you originally had eight dice on it, which gives you wiggle room I don't have). Personally, I think that we can wait a turn or two. If asteroid mines are cheaper than moon mines, well and good- we'll be mostly working on those in 2060-61 anyway, so there's no rush to get the first phase of Vulcan finished.
 
Last edited:
Mm. Very tempting, especially if asteroid mines turn out to be relatively cheap. On the other hand, any 'extra' capacity we have in the second half of the Four Year Plan after finishing the Philadelphia and MAYBE cramming in Phase 1 and/or 2 of Columbia will mostly be reserved for Enterprise and/or Columbia. There's not a lot of room to do a whole 'nother station to a high level of completion... I dunno. We're gonna have to think about it.

For now, though, we're almost certainly committed to just finishing the Philadelphia, so it's a moot point in the short term.
There is a note saying vulcan is limited to 1 die per turn right now so progressing that is probably a good idea.

I don't think we should do so yet, though, because it risks delaying the completion of the Philadelphia (though I think you originally had eight dice on it, which gives you wiggle room I don't have). Personally, I think that we can wait a turn or two. If asteroid mines are cheaper than moon mines, well and good- we'll be mostly working on those in 2060-61 anyway, so there's no rush to get the first phase of Vulcan finished.
I have 7 on philly and 1 on vulcan so philly should still finish.- also philly got a 5 point discount so 7 dice is up to 95%
 
Last edited:
There is a note saying vulcan is limited to 1 die per turn right now so progressing that is probably a good idea.
The thing is, we only need it to attain a state of completion equal to the number of asteroid mines we're ready to build.

Since we're probably not ready to invest heavily in asteroid mines just yet while still putting the bulk of our Orbital dice on Philly Phase 5, we probably don't need to do more than, say, invest 1 die/turn for three quarters in 2059 to get up to Phase 1+2 by the end of the year.

Don't get me wrong, I want to unlock asteroid mines! But I don't want to risk delaying the Philadelphia to make that happen. We need strong cumulative investment. I'm not disrespecting your actual current plan because you do commit enough dice to make that happen- though I still disagree with you about the merits of your plan doing Orca Refits instead of Tube Artillery with the dice it does have.

But I don't think we should consider Vulcan an automatic priority for immediate start of work, necessarily.

I have 7 on philly and 1 on vulcan so philly should still finish.- also philly got a 5 point discount so 7 dice is up to 95%
Good point, and I'll amend accordingly.
 
I presume the Contesga is our next generation gravy ship and will raise the dice cap for Vulcan.

OK, competitor plan.

[]Plan All Hail The ICS!
-[]Infrastructure 5/5 70R
--[] Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 2) 28/160 1 die 10R 6%
--[] Integrated Cargo System 0/800 4 dice 60R (median 4/11)

-[]Heavy Industry 4/4 + 2 120R
--[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plant (Phase 2) 22/300 6 dice 120R 97%

-[]Light & Chemical Industry 3/4 70R
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 2) 1/160 2 dice 40R 33%
--[] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 1) 0/95 1 die 30R 33%

-[]Agriculture 3/3 20R
--[] Perennial Aquaponics Bays (Stage 2) 123/350 2 dice 20R (median 2/4)
--[] Security Review 1 die

-[]Tiberium 6/6 150R
--[] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 1) 0/200 3 dice 60R 79%
--[] Tiberium Processing Plants (Stage 1) 0/200 3 dice 90R 77%

-[]Orbital Industry 5/5 + 2 140R
--[] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 4) 362/710 7 dice 140R 95%

-[]Services 4/4 35R
--[] Green Zone Teacher Colleges 0/200 2 dice 15R 61%
--[] Tissue Replacement Therapy Development 0/60 1 die 20R 77%

-[]Military 6/6 + 2 110R
--[]Pacifier Mobile Artillery Vehicle Deployment 0/120 2 dice 20R 72%
--[]Tube Artillery Deployment 0/200 3 dice 45R 55%
--[]Naval Defense Laser Refits 117/330 3 dice 45R 50%

-[]Bureaucracy 0/3
--[]Security Review
---[]Agriculture 3 dice 100%

715/715R, 6/6 Free Dice

Compared to @Simon_Jester 's plan, this maintains progress on ICS, and trades Containment, Infusion and a Perennial Bays die for an 89% chance of either Reyv or Bergen completing this turn, either of which helps dig our way out of our Energy and Cap Goods hole.

Also I focus on getting the Pacifier out the door instead of picking up Havoc.

EDIT:Ok, did @Simon_Jester alter his plan while I was typing this?
 
Last edited:
Since we're probably not ready to invest heavily in asteroid mines just yet while still putting the bulk of our Orbital dice on Philly Phase 5, we probably don't need to do more than, say, invest 1 die/turn for three quarters in 2059 to get up to Phase 1+2 by the end of the year.
It really depends on the progress and R cost plus return of the asteroid mines, which without knowing we can't fully judge but i think it is worth trying to unlock and see the costs and returns.
 
Honestly I know I was a loud ICS partisan a turn ago but the Scrin gacha spitting out hover trucks has seriously changed my tune. It'll probably take a year or two for the tech to show up, and then longer to deploy, but by the end of this FYP I expect we should have a few hover truck factories going and totally revolutionizing our supply chains. It would be a real shame to spend 800 points of Infra progress on a bunch of giant port cranes and highway interchanges that have a visible expiration date sometime this FYP and would just have to get ripped out and replaced with hover trucks in a new port modernization action in 2062 anyways.

I think our Infra points are better spent on housing for now, then Karachi when we've got the shells and Orcas and maybe a Zone Suit factory or two for it. We can keep our heads above water on logistics with trains and suborbital shuttles, then later once we get our hands on the new hover trucks circle back to the ICS. Heavy freight lines and literal spaceships are probably the least likely to be obsoleted by hover trucks, trains still have a niche carrying heavy military hardware and industrial goods that're too heavy for a truck while spaceships still have speed. The roads and ports are going to need total design philosophy changes to deal with the new technology though.
 
Last edited:
You know it would be funny/awesome if we got double 100s on the Philadelphia, almost as if to counter the double 1s we got recently. Of course it would be awesome to get double 100s on almost anything. :grin: Sad to think we probably won't get double 100s. 😟
 
Last edited:
OK, competitor plan...

[]Plan All Hail The ICS!
-[]Infrastructure 5/5 70R
--[] Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 2) 28/160 1 die 10R 6%
--[] Integrated Cargo System 0/800 4 dice 60R (median 4/11)

-[]Heavy Industry 4/4 + 2 120R
--[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plant (Phase 2) 22/300 6 dice 120R 97%
All of this was literally my own plan until a little while ago, so I'd approval-vote it, but...

-[]Light & Chemical Industry 3/4 70R
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 2) 1/160 2 dice 40R 33%
--[] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 1) 0/95 1 die 30R 33%

-[]Tiberium 6/6 150R
--[] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 1) 0/200 3 dice 60R 79%
--[] Tiberium Processing Plants (Stage 1) 0/200 3 dice 90R 77%
I don't think it's worth some of the sacrifices you make here. If it was me, I'd turn the Bergen die into a Reykjavik die, then either find 10 R more to put a fourth die on Reykjavik, or take the 10 R left over from Bergen and use it to flip a Vein Mining die into a fourth Refineries die.

Bergen's good, but I don't think it's worth 30 R/die for us yet, until we're either richer or have plucked a bit more low-hanging fruit. We're still 4.5 very expensive dice out from the part where it starts giving us Capital Goods, after all. For now, I'd rather focus on getting Reykjavik up to speed as a superior successor to the Johannesburg plant.

-[]Services 4/4 35R
--[] Green Zone Teacher Colleges 0/200 2 dice 15R 61%
--[] Tissue Replacement Therapy Development 0/60 1 die 20R 77%

-[]Military 6/6 + 2 110R
--[]Pacifier Mobile Artillery Vehicle Deployment 0/120 2 dice 20R 72%
--[]Tube Artillery Deployment 0/200 3 dice 45R 55%
--[]Naval Defense Laser Refits 117/330 3 dice 45R 50%
Your Services dice don't add up.

Also, I strongly recommend a Havoc die over a second Pacifier die. There is no immediate need to have the Pacifiers fully deployed since we still have a little wiggle room before the outbreak of war and ZOCOM isn't going to be stretched thinner in 2058Q4 than they already were. The Q3 completion of the Phase 2 war factory refits has already taken a little pressure off them by increasing serviceability rates for their armor, so slow-walking Pacifier is a good idea. Right now every Military die is precious and we can't afford to waste any for anything but the most urgent projects. Tube Artillery and Defense Laser Refits arguably qualify; the Pacifier does not anymore.

It really depends on the progress and R cost plus return of the asteroid mines, which without knowing we can't fully judge but i think it is worth trying to unlock and see the costs and returns.
That's a fair point. And because your plan puts three Free dice on Orbital instead of the two my plan uses, you can do that without an unacceptable sacrifice. My plan puts one more die on Military, which I consider to be worth it, but it's a reasonable difference of opinion.

EDIT:Ok, did @Simon_Jester alter his plan while I was typing this?
Yes, but mostly to put in the fourth refinery die, turn EVA research into emergency tiberium infusion research, and, uh, I don't think there was anything else besides updating the chance of completing Philly Phase 4.

Honestly I know I was a loud ICS partisan a turn ago but the Scrin gacha spitting out hover trucks has seriously changed my tune. It'll probably take a year or two for the tech to show up, and then longer to deploy, but by the end of this FYP I expect we should have a few hover truck factories going and totally revolutionizing our supply chains. It would be a real shame to spend 800 points of Infra progress on a bunch of giant port cranes and highway interchanges that have a visible expiration date sometime this FYP and would just have to get ripped out and replaced with hover trucks in a new port modernization action in 2062 anyways.
Hnngh.

Maaaybe.

But in that case, if we want a reasonable level of Logistics security for the coming war, we need to bite the bullet and invest in Suborbital Shuttles.

It really is quite rewarding, and has no real Capital Goods or Energy cost... and at this point it's looking more and more efficient compared to slamming out more railroad phases.

Also, Integrated Cargo System is likely to include a lot of stuff beyond just the trucking. A lot of it's about the inventory management and ability to rapidly transfer cargo from one platform to another; having hovertrucks instead of semi tractor-trailers won't magically eliminate those problems.

Besides, to move quickly, even hovertrucks will still require cleared level pathways; they're hover-trucks, not flying trucks, as far as I can tell, based on the nature of the Scrin vehicles they're based on. So work done on roads and interchanges won't be entirely wasted. Also, while hovertrucks can probably cross open water, I don't expect them to be very seaworthy, so they're not going to be suited for long ocean crossings. Rivers, yes, harbors, yes, the North Sea or the Sea of Japan, no thank you.

I think our Infra points are better spent on housing for now, then Karachi when we've got the shells and Orcas and maybe a Zone Suit factory or two for it.
That might work out, actually, assuming we're not so up to our ass in alligators circa 2059Q3 or so that the military just goes NOPE NOPE NOPE on the entire idea of doing Karachi.
 
Last edited:
Rail into suborbital is the likely path since by the time we finish rails we should have the income to do suborbital.
Suborbital Phase 3 is just hilariously good; the only problem is the work it takes to get there. But the actual phases aren't that much more expensive; they just cost more Resources to activate, which is partially compensated by needing fewer of them.

I can sort of see the logic behind finishing Rails Phase 3 assuming there are no more phases behind it, but even that is starting to move towards the point of diminishing returns where we might actually have been better off, in terms of return on investment, to just start straightaway with the shuttles.

What it comes down to is that if we're putting off ICS because we expect hovertrucks to revolutionize the system and demand extensive rethinking of its capabilities, then we do still have a sizeable Logistics megaproject to consider- namely, the shuttles.

@Ithillid , would you care to comment on what is being projected for the possible impact of hovertrucks on the ICS option? Or is it too soon to tell?
 
Your Services dice don't add up.
Ah, sorry. I swear I fixed that.

Also, I strongly recommend a Havoc die over a second Pacifier die. There is no immediate need to have the Pacifiers fully deployed since we still have a little wiggle room before the outbreak of war and ZOCOM isn't going to be stretched thinner in 2058Q4 than they already were. The Q3 completion of the Phase 2 war factory refits has already taken a little pressure off them by increasing serviceability rates for their armor, so slow-walking Pacifier is a good idea. Right now every Military die is precious and we can't afford to waste any for anything but the most urgent projects. Tube Artillery and Defense Laser Refits arguably qualify; the Pacifier does not anymore.

By that same logic, we should prioritize getting our existing deployment projects out the door over developing another platform. I don't think Havoc qualifies as 'most urgent'--the Super Orcas do, and while I can't deploy them this turn I can free up a die from doing it next turn when we'll need all our dice for a full consumables press.

With that in mind:

[]Plan All Hail The ICS! Mk.2
-[]Infrastructure 5/5 70R
--[] Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 2) 28/160 1 die 10R 6%
--[] Integrated Cargo System 0/800 4 dice 60R (median 4/11)

-[]Heavy Industry 4/4 + 2 120R
--[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plant (Phase 2) 22/300 6 dice 120R 97%

-[]Light & Chemical Industry 3/4 60R
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 2) 1/160 3 dice 60R 80%

-[]Agriculture 3/3 20R
--[] Perennial Aquaponics Bays (Stage 2) 123/350 2 dice 20R (median 2/4)
--[] Security Review 1 die

-[]Tiberium 6/6 150R
--[] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 1) 0/200 3 dice 60R 79%
--[] Tiberium Processing Plants (Stage 1) 0/200 3 dice 90R 77%

-[]Orbital Industry 5/5 + 2 140R
--[] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 4) 362/710 7 dice 140R 95%

-[]Services 4/4 35R
--[] Green Zone Teacher Colleges 0/200 3 dice 15R 61%
--[] Tissue Replacement Therapy Development 0/60 1 die 20R 77%

-[]Military 6/6 + 2 115R
--[]Orca Refit Deployment 0/200 1 die 15R (median 1/3)
--[]Pacifier Mobile Artillery Vehicle Deployment 0/120 1 dice 10R 10% (median 1/2)
--[]Tube Artillery Deployment 0/200 3 dice 45R 55%
--[]Naval Defense Laser Refits 117/330 3 dice 45R 50%

-[]Bureaucracy 3/3
--[]Security Review
---[]Agriculture 3 dice 100%

715/715R, 6/6 Free Dice

Bergen die goes into Reyv and upgrading a Pacifier die into Super Orcas. Extra goes towards Green Zone Teacher Colleges. Otherwise unchanged.
 
It's too bad we need to have Scrin Research to make hover technology viable again, otherwise we'd just need to dust off the research that was put into the MLRS that made it hover but it would have been too damn expensive as anyone familiar with Tiberian Sun lore would know why it was put out of service in-universe.
 
By that same logic, we should prioritize getting our existing deployment projects out the door over developing another platform. I don't think Havoc qualifies as 'most urgent'--the Super Orcas do, and while I can't deploy them this turn I can free up a die from doing it next turn when we'll need all our dice for a full consumables press.

With that in mind:

Bergen die goes into Reyv and upgrading a Pacifier die into Super Orcas. Extra goes towards Green Zone Teacher Colleges. Otherwise unchanged.
That's fair enough, I suppose, although I should note that waiting arbitrarily long for the Havoc is going to piss off the Talons something fierce, and General Jackson who's the source of a third of our Military dice. There's a political need to take some action on the projects, even if we don't go on into immediate development, and I figured the Havoc development would be an easier sell than the plasma weapon research.

But aside from that, everything between us is quibbles, not serious objections.

It's too bad we need to have Scrin Research to make hover technology viable again, otherwise we'd just need to dust off the research that was put into the MLRS that made it hover but it would have been too damn expensive as anyone familiar with Tiberian Sun lore would know why it was put out of service in-universe.
Those hover vehicles were grounded by ion storms, so I'm not sure we'd want them today though they'd still have their uses if we could get them cheap and efficient enough.
 
So two thoughts on the logistics/Scrin hovertech:

Scrin hovertech will likely take a few years before we can even start working on it as a project. I think previous Scrin/Nod research initiative technologies were the same way. Not a problem, until I think about how the repulsor units might require a Heavy Industry factory like myomers or superconductors before we can reap the benefits of hovertrucks or other hover vehicles benefitting logistics. (Though military unit production will not require the factory but likely get discounts like myomers to some deployments.) That's going to be a long time to put off Integrated Cargo Systems, especially since I could see it being a 5-phase project.

Secondly is that standard wheeled trucks is likely much easier to produce than repulsor units. Repulsor units are beneficial for unsteady and unprepared terrain. But might not outweigh using a regular truck at a cargo port or a regular city. A crane, a regular truck, and a dumb steel container will still be mainstays of port logistics for a while. But I have no doubt that it will be really good for logistics in red and yellow zones. Red zone and glacier harvesting will definitely get much cheaper. ZOCOM is probably salivating at repulsor craft that doesn't get shut down by ion storms right now.

Relatedly: someone in the discord asked how much repulsor craft would affect various vehicles over a week ago. The answers were:

Trains: Limited. Makes your High Speed lines better, but that is kind of it.
Supply Trucks: Wheels are out, hover is in. Roads and Bridges are not required.
Helicopters: Too far up, no real impact.
Landing Craft: Cuts their use significantly. Down to just being good for the actually heavy hardware. Predators, Mammoths and the like.

----------

-[]Military 6/6 + 2 115R
--[]Orca Refit Deployment 0/200 1 die 15R (median 1/3)
--[]Pacifier Mobile Artillery Vehicle Deployment 0/120 1 dice 10R 10% (median 1/2)
--[]Tube Artillery Deployment 0/200 3 dice 45R 55%
--[]Naval Defense Laser Refits 117/330 3 dice 45R 50%

Could I ask that this military portion contribute at least 4 dice to military plan goals? Out of the 4 projects, only 3 dice goes towards the plan with naval defense laser refits.
 
Back
Top