Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

Dmol8 · Oct 15, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
Besides, many of my speculations are objectively false. Distinguishing between fact and opinion is important.

Again, don't model the arcologies as an abstract 'promise' floating in the void.

Model this as a demand made by people (in the legislature) in response to demands by other people (the voters) who are themselves real people with inner mental lives, not just p-zombies that randomly do stuff for random reasons.

The reason the arcology demands have picked up is because there's an intense desire among the citizenry for more and better housing. Existing housing is in very short supply. Even the least desirable housing, even the actively dangerous housing in war zones. This motivates millions of people to do everything in their power to seek better housing. And since the supply of housing is largely controlled by Treasury, which has only built housing slowly and grudgingly for most of the past eight years since the war...

They protest and demand more housing. The kind of (good) housing they see us building is arcologies, so they demand more of that. But ultimately, much though NOT ALL of the demand for arcologies is simply an implementation of the underlying demand for housing in general.

Thus, while I was a fierce advocate of heavy arcology investment for the Third Plan... Now that I see the apartment complex option giving us a cheaper way to create a lot of Housing, I step back from the arcologies a bit. We'll still do them, but importantly, we can solve the Housing crisis differently. The same effort required to complete one phase of Blue Zone arcologies and provide +8 Housing is more than enough to provide +12 Housing in apartments and the supporting logistics, and nearly enough tot provide +18 Housing and the supporting logistics.

Importantly for the current planning situation, this cheaper option frees up resources for us to spend elsewhere.

I'd like to question the value of this project at a time when we're trying to conserve our Labor and Capital Goods for other projects. I think it would be better not to activate these dice at all, or to spend them on the macrospinner.

Note the very high demand for caffeinated kudzu research. While it is highly desirable to perform this project (it's right up there with "Yellow Zone Water Purification" as something I want to do early with Agriculture dice, it's quite possible that all of GDI will benefit greatly from us finally getting some mass distribution of caffeine.

Here we see Orbital and Services being Resource-starved and in Orbital's case Free Dice starved.

Personally, I'd flip one die on the war factory refits to the point defense refits to save 10 R, drop the light industrial project to save 30 R, flip four arcology dice to apartment dice to save 20 R... then reallocate things. For instance, by upgrading the Services research to Nod/Scrin research, or by spending Free dice working on the much-desired and much-desirable Philadelphia project in Orbital.

On a side note, I really want to slow-walk the tiberium infusions. Even with only one die rolled there is SOME chance of us passing the check, and the second die being wasted. Furthermore, I'd rather take -5 PS hits in two successive turns than a -10 PS hit all at once.

We actually need less Infrastructure dice now because of the apartments being an option for resolving the Housing crisis. Though an Infrastructure boost very much would not go amiss, don't get me wrong. On the other hand, we're even tighter and more desperate for options in Orbital and Military, I would argue.

Once we get our budget back together, we can do all the Infrastructure we really need, as long as we don't get distracted spending a zillion Infrastructure dice on Salt Lake Planned City or something.

Hmmrm. That... is a fair point. Can you expand on the supporting evidence? I might revisit my position on the project if there's that many medical things gated behind that project

Except that facts come in three flavors: Subjective, Collective and Objective. And Personal Robotics is a Labor aid is a Collective truth. As in most people would expect personal robots to help with Labor.

Alright then answer me this: Other than Arcologies and Fortress towns which housing projects can we expect to include Point Defenses?

We had:

Ithillid said:
[ ] Personal Pharmaceuticals Plants
Ranging from contraceptives to cough suppressants to caffeine pills, there are a number of medications and treatments that people take without prescription. While distribution is still problematic at times, improving the supply will mean that more people will be able to take care of some of their own medical problems rather than having to take up institutional resources.
(Progress 0/180: 15 resources per die) (++ Consumer Goods, + Health) (High Priority)

which notes as one of it's products contraceptives, which is an action we lost when we gained:

Ithillid said:
[ ] Blue Zone Light Industrial Sectors (Phase 1)
With GDI needing ever more in the way of light industrial products, and Blue Zone reconstruction effectively complete, large sections of many of the cities have been cleared for future development. While industry is not necessarily the most efficient use, it will have substantial impacts on the supply of various consumer goods. The project has also subsumed a number of other factories that had been on the docket for years, as the Initiative no longer needs to focus on that scale.
(Progress 0/500: 10 Resources per die) (++++ ++ Consumer Goods, ++ Health -- Energy, -- Capital Goods, --- -- Labor)

which says that as an action it subsumed multiple factory construction actions. 2+2 = 4 and sometimes 5, but it is still math. And the newest version of the action:

Ithillid said:
[ ] Blue Zone Light Industrial Sectors (Phase 1)
With GDI needing ever more in the way of light industrial products, and Blue Zone reconstruction effectively complete, large sections of many of the cities have been cleared for future development. While industry is not necessarily the most efficient use, it will have substantial impacts on the supply of various consumer goods. The project has also subsumed a number of other factories that had been on the docket for years, as the Initiative no longer needs to focus on that scale.
(Progress 0/250: 10 Resources per die) (+5 Consumer Goods, +1 Health -1 Energy, -1 Capital Goods, -3 Labor)
(Progress 0/250: 10 Resources per die) (+5 Consumer Goods, +1 Health -1 Energy, -1 Capital Goods, -3 Labor)

is the same action split into two phases. So we should get it done if we want more contraceptives in our population.

This next round of perennials are the Caffeine ones. Hey @Ithillid, so I don't have to chase quotes again, what do the next two stages of Perennial Plant Auqaponics have as their focus?

Orbital can have 5 Dice on it by the end of Q2. 1 From the New Hires and 1 from Dice redistribution. I'm not really sure how it's Dice starved under those circumstances.

I did think about doing that, but considering that we will get another Orbital Die with the incoming vote I'm honestly just waiting for it to be locked in so I can flip some of the more expensive stuff into Actions I don't have Dice for right now.

:wtf:

We would need to roll an 88 or higher on a single Die next turn. Or to put it in terms you care about with the help of @Derpmind's Planquest Probability Calculator: 1 Die gives us a 13,00% chance of finishing the project while 2 Die give us 75,85% of finishing the project. I'm going to go with something higher than a little over 1 in 10 odds.

I'm doing Factory Refits precisely to get more Military Dice.

We don't have Salt Lake Planned City as an action since we didn't take it in the plan vote. So :Citation Needed:

on it even being an option to take.

Ithillid · Oct 15, 2021

Dmol8 said:
This next round of perennials are the Caffeine ones. Hey @Ithillid, so I don't have to chase quotes again, what do the next two stages of Perennial Plant Auqaponics have as their focus?

They are all mixed, but future phases of Perennials will be a mix of caffination and various fruits.

BOTcommander · Oct 15, 2021

SCEDQuest rollls, yayifications
[X]Plan Industrial Explorations and Shaking Down Pathfinder
-[X]Tanegashima Space Center (Stage 3) 3 dice, 60 C
-[X]New Johnson Training Center (Stage 2) 3 dice, 75 C
-[X]Gagarin Station (Stage 2) 3 parts, 30 launch cap, 15 C, 30 IP.
-Development
-[X]Surface Exploration EVA Development 0/500 (2C/Die) 2 dice, 4C
-[X]Small Scale Nuclear Reactor Development 0/100 0/5IP (5C/Die+2IP/Die) 1 die, 5 C, 7IP
-[X]Venus Rover Prototyping 0/250 (5C/Die+5IP/Die) 4 dice, 20 C, 20 IP
-[X]Reusable Probes 0/200 (5C/Die+5IP/Die) 3 dice, 15 C, 15 IP
-Space Command Mission Planning:
-[X]Mars Landing Mission Addendum: Return sample of transuranics 0/50 1 die
-[X]Mission: Orbital Scan Saturn Minor moons+rings 1 die
-[X]Mission: Orbital Scan Uranus Main Body 1 die
-[X]Mission: Orbital Scan Neptune's Moon Triton 1 die
-[X]Mission: Orbital Scan Pluto 1 die
-[X]Mission: Surface Exploration Ceres 0/150 1 die
-Missions
-[X]Pardus Mission-Luna (Required for activation: 4IP per Location, 2 Capital per Location, 1 Manned Mission)
-[X]Tycho
-[X]Orbital Scan-Mercury (Required for activation: 6IP, 3Capital, 3 Launch Cap, 1 free Manned Mission slot, 14 Pathfinder days)
-[X]Rover Delivery-Mars (Required for activation: 4IP per Location, 2 Capital per Location, 1 Launch Cap per Location, 1 Manned Mission, 14 Pathfinder days)
--[X]Huygens
--[X]North Pole
--[X]South Pole
-[X]Observation Probe-Jupiter (Required for activation: 6IP, 3Capital, 3 Launch Cap, 1 Manned Mission, 25 Pathfinder days)
238C-208 spent
100IP-100IP spent
160 launch capacity- 39 used.

Derpmind · Oct 15, 2021

For SCED Quest, I think Vehrec's plan is best. We should be widening our exploration efforts with the Pathfinder now that it has unlocked the solar system for us. We shouldn't focus on Luna or Mars so much that we ignore the massive potential resources or discoveries that might be out there.

Edit:

'd.

Dmol8 said:
We would need to roll an 88 or higher on a single Die next turn. Or to put it in terms you care about with the help of @Derpmind's Planquest Probability Calculator: 1 Die gives us a 13,00% chance of finishing the project while 2 Die give us 75,85% of finishing the project. I'm going to go with something higher than a little over 1 in 10 odds.

I'd like to go for the 13% chance to save resources, dice, and especially PS. 5 PS can cost an entire project to raise; we should spend it carefully whenever possible.

Dmol8 · Oct 15, 2021

Derpmind said:
I'd like to go for the 13% chance to save resources, dice, and especially PS. 5 PS can cost an entire project to raise; we should spend it carefully whenever possible.

We're not playing as Dr. Granger anymore. It's Seo Thoki now and he has a lot more Political Support option including:

Ithillid said:
[ ] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 4)
The project that was never completed by the prewar administration, the fourth phase of Philadelphia will bring yet more critical government systems into orbit and serve as a secure location for parliamentary commissions and panels. (Station)
(Progress 29/715: 30 resources per die) (+3 to all dice, +1 Free Die) (10 Political Support) (Fusion)
(Progress 0/1430: 30 resources per die) (+4 to all dice, +1 die to each category) (15 Political Support)

25 Political Support for completing Philadelphia. And that's before we count on the fact that we started the new plan with 70 PS.

Also Mathpost for SCED Quest:

Tanegashima Space Center (Stage 3): 145+79+22+71 = 317/400
New Johnson Training Center (Stage 2): 80+83+65+60 = 268/200
Surface Exploration EVA Development: 0+22+30+40 = 92/500
Small Scale Nuclear Reactor Development: 0+32+20 = 52/100
Venus Rover Prototyping: 0+1+65+16+54+80 = 216/250 NAT 1
Reusable Probes: 0+11+66+94+60 = 231/200
Mission: Surface Exploration Ceres: 0+39+5 = 44/150
Mars Landing Mission Addendum: Return sample of transuranics: 0+25+5 = 30/50

Derpmind · Oct 15, 2021

Dmol8 said:
25 Political Support for completing Philadelphia. And that's before we count on the fact that we started the new plan with 70 PS.

That's not a good example. The Philadelphia is, roughly, 2000 progress. That's over 400 progress for every 5 PS.

Even without Granger's penalty, it remains a costly and limited resource. And we're sure to get even more PS costing projects over the course of the Plan.

Void Stalker · Oct 15, 2021

Also not every project needs to be pushed to completion in 1 turn- keeping from overkill means we make more progress overall and finish more projects due to that, which is part of planning- not shocking everything through but keeping a constant flow and work to fulfill current and future needs.

There are times when we need to shock and overkill but that does not need to be the case on every project we do.

Dmol8 · Oct 15, 2021

Derpmind said:
That's not a good example. The Philadelphia is, roughly, 2000 progress. That's over 400 progress for every 5 PS.

Even without Granger's penalty, it remains a costly and limited resource. And we're sure to get even more PS costing projects over the course of the Plan.

Yeah and?

Ithillid said:
[ ] Medina Planned City
With the projects to restore Mecca and Jeddah completed, and with them the original spectrum of the Initiative's work in the region, there is one area that still needs attention, the holy city of Medina.
(Can spend mixed Tiberium and Infrastructure dice, at least 1 die must be Tiberium)
(Progress 598/640: 20 resources per die) (-2 Labor, -1 Logistics) (+10 Political Support) (+2 Red Zone Abatement, +2 Yellow Zone Abatement, +5 RpT, +120 Processing Capacity)

We already got 10 Political support and we can build up PS from multiple sources:

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 1)
First wave continuous cycle fusion plants are still somewhat under development. However, they are ready enough for mass roll out, with only a few kinks in the connection systems remaining before they can be linked to the grid as a whole.
(Progress 333/350: 20 Resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (High Priority)
(Progress 0/300: 20 Resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (+5 Political Support)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Personal Vehicle Factories
Even though GDI's modern cities are designed with the intention to be nearly, if not entirely, traversable by foot and mass transit options, there is still demand for various forms of personal vehicles. With some small modifications, there are a number of existing electric vehicle designs that could be used as the baseline to begin providing more people with better access to personal transport.
(Progress 0/250: 10 resources per die) (+9 Consumer Goods, -4 Energy) (+5 political support)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Bergen Superconductor Foundry
With the proof of concept for larger scale superconductors well and truly proven, a large scale facility capable of producing at least thousands of kilometers of the material is required. Bergen, on the coast of the North Atlantic, will provide a more than suitable location to provide for shipping superconductor tubes around the world.
(Progress 0/95: 30 resources per die) (+1 Energy)
(Progress 0/190: 30 resources per die) (+1 Capital Goods, +2 Energy)
(Progress 0/380: 30 resources per die) (+2 Capital Goods, +4 Energy) (-1 Logistics)
(Progress 0/760: 30 resources per die) (+4 Capital Goods, +8 Energy) (-2 Logistics)(+5 Political Support)
(Progress 0/1520: 30 resources per die) (+8 Capital Goods, +16 Energy) (-3 Logistics) (+10 Political Support)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Johannesburg Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 4)
The expansion of the macrospinner project has reached a point where it is not only providing support locally, but has begun to support all aspects of the Initiative's military and industrial complexes. Providing yet more of the wonder material will improve efficiencies further and increase supplies going to critical war industries.
(Progress 69/720: 20 resources per die) (+4 Capital Goods, +2 Energy) (Reduces cost of mech and zone armor projects)
(Progress 0/1440: 20 resources per die) (+8 Capital Goods, +4 Energy) (Reduces cost of mech and zone armor projects) (+5PS)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Perennial Aquaponics Bays (Stage 2)
A further phase of major perennial bay aquaponics development will focus on producing various forms of mass luxuries for global consumption. While it will take well into next plan to reach full production, it will be an investment into the future and a generally popular decision.
(Progress 123/350: 10 resources per die) (+4 Food over 16 turns, +16 Consumer Goods over 16 turns) (+10 Political Support)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Ranching Domes
With the biosphere project well underway, one proposal is to begin producing larger numbers of food animals and animal byproducts by using many of the same methods but with an agricultural bent. While the products and projects will both be expensive, providing real steaks, milk, butter, eggs, and other products, will be a significant boost in consumer goods.
(Progress 0/250: 20 resources per die) (+8 Consumer Goods, -4 Food, -2 Energy, -2 Labor) (+5 Political Support)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment
With the inhibitor prepared, it is time to begin arranging for deployment. While each will be significantly energy expensive and require a major investment of resources, it is now one of the fastest routes to abate the Tiberian menace.
(For Yellow and Red Zones, project is unlocked once all allocated MARV hubs are completed)

-[ ] Blue Zone 1 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die) (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 2 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die) (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[-] Blue Zone 3 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die) (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 4 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 5 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[-] Blue Zone 6 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 7 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 8 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 9 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 10 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 11 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 12 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 13 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[-] Blue Zone 14 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 15 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 16 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 18 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Blue Zone 19 (Progress 0/100: 30 resources per die (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[ ] Red Zone 6 (Progress 0/120: 30 resources per die) (+2 Red Zone Abatement) (2 Political Support)
[ ] Improved Tiberium Containment Facilities Development

Ithillid said:
[ ] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 4)
The project that was never completed by the prewar administration, the fourth phase of Philadelphia will bring yet more critical government systems into orbit and serve as a secure location for parliamentary commissions and panels. (Station)
(Progress 29/715: 30 resources per die) (+3 to all dice, +1 Free Die) (10 Political Support) (Fusion)
(Progress 0/1430: 30 resources per die) (+4 to all dice, +1 die to each category) (15 Political Support)

[ ] GDSS Colombia (Phase 1)
The development of a first stage of orbital habitats offers a Testbed for further evacuations of the most devastated areas. While expensive, stations like this one could be the future of human habitation. These prototypes will not be fit for long term human habitation, however any issues that emerge here are ones that can be solved before trying to live in space. (Station)
(Progress 0/85: 30 resources per die) (Fusion) (5 Political Support)
(Progress 0/170: 30 resources per die) (.25k Permanent residents) (7 Political Support)
(Progress 0/340: 30 resources per die) (.5k Permanent residents) (1 available Bay) (8 Political Support)
(Progress 0/680: 30 resources per die) (1k Permanent residents) ( 2 available Bays) (9 Political Support)
(Progress 0/1360: 30 resources per die) (2k Permanent residents) (3 available Bays) (10 Political Support)

[ ] GDSS Enterprise (Phase 4)
Expanding the Enterprise into a proper all in one industrial center, will require a number of new bays and modules. However, before the refineries, material processors, and industrial fabricators can be brought fully online, they will need to be fed with material. (Station)
(Progress 0/770: 30 resources per die) (+2 Capital Goods, +2 Consumer Goods) (1 available Bay)
(Progress 0/1540: 30 resources per die) (+2 Capital Goods, +2 Consumer Goods) (2 available Bays) (10 Political Support)

[ ] GDSS Shala (Phase 1)
While agriculture on the ground is still capable of sustaining life on earth, Shala, named after the Sumerian goddess of grain and compassion, is aimed at taking this to the skies. While at this point plans are for an entirely experimental station, capable of doing little more than feeding its inhabitants, work done here will be invaluable as the orbits, and eventually other worlds, are colonized. (Station)
(Progress 0/85: 30 resources per die) (5 Political Support) (Fusion)
(Progress 0/170: 30 resources per die) (.1k permanent residents) (+1 Food) (5 Political Support)
(Progress 0/340: 30 resources per die) (.2k permanent residents) (+2 Food, +1 Consumer Goods) (10 Political Support) (1 available Bay)
(Progress 0/680: 30 resources per die) (.3k permanent residents) (+4 Food, +2 Consumer Goods) (15 Political Support) (2 available Bays)
(Progress 0/1360: 30 resources per die) (.4k permanent residents) (+8 Food, +4 Consumer Goods) (20 Political Support) (3 available Bays)

[ ] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 3)
With another major wave of clearance done, further communications bandwidth can be launched, reducing the number of dead zones and increasing connection reliability, including the expansion of voting access.
(Progress 13/135: 15 resources per die) (+2 Logistics) (5 Political Support) (Fusion)

[ ] Orbital Cleanup (Stage 8)
With much of the largest and slowest of the debris collected, all that remains is the increasingly small and fast dust and sand remaining in the orbitals. While still significantly problematic, it is unfortunately much less profitable to mine, as there is not enough material left to save launches.
(Progress 13/90: 15 resources per die) (20-25 resources)
(Progress 0/90: 15 resources per die) (15-20 resources)
(Progress 0/90: 15 resources per die) (15-20 resources)
(Progress 0/90: 15 resources per die) (10-15 resources)
(Progress 0/90: 15 resources per die) (10-15 resources) (+5 Political Support)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Prosthetics Deployment Initiatives (Phase 3)
With significant production placed towards the area, further development will begin targeting not only those of working age, but many who will never work again. Work towards this will be politically popular, especially with the United Yellow List and the Socialist parties.
(Progress 2/160: 15 resources per die) (-1 Health, +1 Labor per turn)
(Progress 0/320: 15 resources per die) (-1 Health, +1 Labor per turn) (+5 Political Support)

[ ] Professional Sports Programs
With GDI's situation stabilizing rapidly, professional sports programs will provide entertainment and be a significant marker of a return to normalcy. While it will require some work to provide dedicated arenas, and set up systems for recruiting players, the program will prove very politically popular
(Progress 0/250: 10 resources per die) (+2 Consumer Goods, -1 Health, -1 Labor) (+10 Political Support)

[ ] Domestic Animal Programs
Pets provide for the mental health and well being of much of the populace. While unpopular for much of the last half century as food supplies have often been scarce, providing pets and pet supplies is something that can be done to both help the many disabled veterans with service animals, and support the broader population.
(Progress 0/200: 10 resources per die) (-3 Food, +2 Consumer Goods) (10 Political Support)

MARV Hubs also probably get us some and we will get more options as more actions open up.

Void Stalker said:
Also not every project needs to be pushed to completion in 1 turn- keeping from overkill means we make more progress overall and finish more projects due to that, which is part of planning- not shocking everything through but keeping a constant flow and work to fulfill current and future needs.

There are times when we need to shock and overkill but that does not need to be the case on every project we do.

What.

No seriously what. It's a 120 points project that I put two Die on. What shock/overkill are you talking about?

Simon_Jester · Oct 15, 2021

Dmol8 said:
Except that facts come in three flavors: Subjective, Collective and Objective. And Personal Robotics is a Labor aid is a Collective truth.

No.

"Personal Robotics is a Labor aid" is a reasonable inference. I don't know or care where you get this trichotomy of subjective/collective/objective, you regularly pull out random philosophical concepts that are unhelpful to understanding the subject at hand and this is one of those times. The point is that there is a difference between a fact, something we know is actually true, and an opinion, something that we believe is true.

Ithillid has not directly said that there are +Labor projects hidden behind the personal robotics factory. It is speculation that there might be. Therefore, we should not treat the personal robotics factory as the vital key to an enormous treasure trove of Labor boosts that we must pursue urgently over all other concerns.

Alright then answer me this: Other than Arcologies and Fortress towns which housing projects can we expect to include Point Defenses?

Who knows? Who cares? Fortress towns will eventually have point defenses because they are expected to need them. Most of our territory isn't, and doesn't, because it isn't already starting out in range of random Nod mortar attacks.

Would you feel safer living in a town that has point defenses because it is regularly shelled by an enemy army? Or a town that has no point defenses because the enemy is being kept far away by fortifications? Only a fool would prefer the former.

People do NOT move to the fortress towns because they prefer to live there. Refugees settle there because there is no place else to put them. It is impossible to understand the Housing crisis if one cannot even understand this much.

We had:

which notes as one of it's products contraceptives, which is an action we lost when we gained:

which says that as an action it subsumed multiple factory construction actions. 2+2 = 4 and sometimes 5, but it is still math. And the newest version of the action:

While I would HOPE that at least some production of these things is covered under the larger Pharmaceutical Plants action we just took, I acknowledge the point.

On the other hand, we are still quite resource-tight, so postponing Blue Zone Light Industrial Zones for one or two more turns as a cost-saving measure to enable us to concentrate on other priorities can still be a good idea.

Orbital can have 5 Dice on it by the end of Q2. 1 From the New Hires and 1 from Dice redistribution. I'm not really sure how it's Dice starved under those circumstances.

The trick is that if we start spending on the Philadelphia proactively, we have a much better chance of being sure to complete it by 2058Q4 or maybe even 2058Q3 if we're lucky.

Also, there is absolutely no guarantee that we're getting an extra Orbital die from any of the available New Hire options. That is, again, an opinion, not a fact.

We would need to roll an 88 or higher on a single Die next turn. Or to put it in terms you care about with the help of @Derpmind's Planquest Probability Calculator: 1 Die gives us a 13,00% chance of finishing the project while 2 Die give us 75,85% of finishing the project. I'm going to go with something higher than a little over 1 in 10 odds.

The probability is low, but we'd feel pretty stupid if we end up having to spend more Political Support on it than necessary. Even under Seo, that's an expensive resource.

I'm doing Factory Refits precisely to get more Military Dice.

We don't have Salt Lake Planned City as an action since we didn't take it in the plan vote. So on it even being an option to take.

1) I know you're doing factory refits for that reason, but it'll be a while before we complete the last stage and get the Military die or dice. Furthermore, even with those extra dice we will probably STILL want to spend Free dice, because we have an urgent need to prepare for a probable Nod attack some time in 2059-2061 or so.

2) Also, "Salt Lake Planned City" was a joke; it was a shorthand for "planned city projects that turn out to be white elephants and eat up a lot of infrastructure dice." The point being that while we don't really have the spare Infrastructure capacity to do a lot of planned city construction (precisely because we already did a lot last Plan and put off other priorities for it)... Well, we can do plenty of other necessary things.

Dmol8 said:
We're not playing as Dr. Granger anymore. It's Seo Thoki now and he has a lot more Political Support option including:

Yes, but he also has a lot more things to spend it on.

We shouldn't spend it without necessity, and there is no necessity to throw extra dice at the tiberium infusion process to make it go faster. One die at a time is good enough.

Dmol8 said:
What. No seriously what. It's a 120 points project that I put two Die on. What shock/overkill are you talking about?

It's overkill to spend two dice now, rather than one die now and probably one die later. We have plenty of other Service options, and we're not going to be so super-free with Resources that we can afford to activate all three Services dice on 30 R/die research projects at once in the immediate future, so there's no major opportunity cost for being patient.

Lightwhispers · Oct 15, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
It's overkill to spend two dice now, rather than one die now and probably one die later. We have plenty of other Service options, and we're not going to be so super-free with Resources that we can afford to activate all three Services dice on 30 R/die research projects at once in the immediate future, so there's no major opportunity cost for being patient.

It's spending time, instead of Resources/PS... and in this case, it's probably warranted, since this is not something we need immediately, and the cost in PS is significant. Granted, a 16% chance is not that great, but it's still a chance of not having to spend more PS. Probably worthwhile.

Dmol8 · Oct 15, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
No.

"Personal Robotics is a Labor aid" is a reasonable inference. I don't know or care where you get this trichotomy of subjective/collective/objective, you regularly pull out random philosophical concepts that are unhelpful to understanding the subject at hand and this is one of those times. The point is that there is a difference between a fact, something we know is actually true, and an opinion, something that we believe is true.

Ithillid has not directly said that there are +Labor projects hidden behind the personal robotics factory. It is speculation that there might be. Therefore, we should not treat the personal robotics factory as the vital key to an enormous treasure trove of Labor boosts that we must pursue urgently over all other concerns.

Who knows? Who cares? Fortress towns will eventually have point defenses because they are expected to need them. Most of our territory isn't, and doesn't, because it isn't already starting out in range of random Nod mortar attacks.

Would you feel safer living in a town that has point defenses because it is regularly shelled by an enemy army? Or a town that has no point defenses because the enemy is being kept far away by fortifications? Only a fool would prefer the former.

People do NOT move to the fortress towns because they prefer to live there. Refugees settle there because there is no place else to put them. It is impossible to understand the Housing crisis if one cannot even understand this much.

While I would HOPE that at least some production of these things is covered under the larger Pharmaceutical Plants action we just took, I acknowledge the point.

On the other hand, we are still quite resource-tight, so postponing Blue Zone Light Industrial Zones for one or two more turns as a cost-saving measure to enable us to concentrate on other priorities can still be a good idea.

The trick is that if we start spending on the Philadelphia proactively, we have a much better chance of being sure to complete it by 2058Q4 or maybe even 2058Q3 if we're lucky.

Also, there is absolutely no guarantee that we're getting an extra Orbital die from any of the available New Hire options. That is, again, an opinion, not a fact.

The probability is low, but we'd feel pretty stupid if we end up having to spend more Political Support on it than necessary. Even under Seo, that's an expensive resource.

1) I know you're doing factory refits for that reason, but it'll be a while before we complete the last stage and get the Military die or dice. Furthermore, even with those extra dice we will probably STILL want to spend Free dice, because we have an urgent need to prepare for a probable Nod attack some time in 2059-2061 or so.

2) Also, "Salt Lake Planned City" was a joke; it was a shorthand for "planned city projects that turn out to be white elephants and eat up a lot of infrastructure dice." The point being that while we don't really have the spare Infrastructure capacity to do a lot of planned city construction (precisely because we already did a lot last Plan and put off other priorities for it)... Well, we can do plenty of other necessary things.

Yes, but he also has a lot more things to spend it on.

We shouldn't spend it without necessity, and there is no necessity to throw extra dice at the tiberium infusion process to make it go faster. One die at a time is good enough.

It's overkill to spend two dice now, rather than one die now and probably one die later. We have plenty of other Service options, and we're not going to be so super-free with Resources that we can afford to activate all three Services dice on 30 R/die research projects at once in the immediate future, so there's no major opportunity cost for being patient.

By those definitions an opinion is a subjective fact, a fact is a collective fact and a data point is an objective fact because knowing itself is a collective act not a truly objective one.

I never said that Personal Robotics was a treasure trove of Labor. I only said it had a synchronization bonus with Nuuk. Since that has in the meantime been proven incorrect. I've dropped it from my plan which you didn't quote this time. Interesting that.

We are about to enter Tiberium War 4 so Nod will actually have cause to attack Blue Zone with infiltration/terror units at least. Point defenses on our housing are a type of infrastructure hardening that I would rather have and not need than need and not have.

In this we disagree as I see no greater priority in Light and Chemical Industry for next turn as we will not have enough resources to properly build up the Reykjavik Macrospinner next quarter so might as well start on something we would have done a few turns down the line.

I'm not sure what sort of Dice calculations you are doing, but the option to get an extra Die on Orbital is in fact a fact:

Ithillid said:
Recruitment Drive
With the Universities reopened, GDI has a long list of potential new recruits for its technical departments. While there are unlikely to be substantial numbers of particularly interesting recruits, more capacity is always useful (100/120/140/160/180/200) (Select the 4 that you want to take)

[ ] Graduates
While not the most exciting choice, selecting a number of graduates from various programs around the world will expand GDI's capabilities in the particular area. Although certainly not experienced, they are unlikely to seriously degrade the quality of the department at hand. (Pick 2 of) (+1 die per area, -2 bonus for two years)

[ ] Infrastructure

[ ] Heavy Industry

[ ] Light and Chemical Industry

[ ] Agriculture

[ ] Tiberium

[ ] Services

[ ] Military

[ ] Bureaucracy

[ ] More Graduates
If the treasury believes it to be necessary, it can nearly monopolize the graduates from one area. While this will be politically unpopular, it can provide more resources to a vital area. (can only be taken if Graduates is also taken) (pick 1 of the previous pick's area, gain 1 additional die and additional -2 bonus for two years) (-5 PS)

because the last time we did a Recruitment Drive we had the option of doing so and even going for 2 Die gained on one department.

Time itself is another resource we have to consider how we spend as your plan's Dice rolls failure at the end of the last Four Year Plan demonstrated so well.

Well yes Free Dice will be spent on Military, but having more Military Dice to spend first means less Free Dice spent on Military overall and more available to spend elsewhere.

I disagree since we would have to be patient with the deployment after slowrolling the development anyway and with the resource gain planned for in my plan we can still put two Die on Deployment the turn after the next.

Lightwhispers said:
It's spending time, instead of Resources/PS... and in this case, it's probably warranted, since this is not something we need immediately, and the cost in PS is significant. Granted, a 16% chance is not that great, but it's still a chance of not having to spend more PS. Probably worthwhile.

It's a 13% chance not a 16 % chance so less than you think and I for one find any chance beneath 25% to not be worthwhile.

Voidseer · Oct 15, 2021

Dmol8 said:
It's a 13% chance not a 16 % chance so less than you think and I for one find any chance beneath 25% to not be worthwhile.

You have higher standards than me, I would find any chance beneath 20% to not be worthwhile.

Crazycryodude · Oct 15, 2021

A 13% chance probably isn't going to pay off on any one specific project but compounded across a project or two every turn for 16 turns it ends up saving a solid amount of dice and resources as a strategy. Unless there's a very clear and time sensitive reason why something has to be done this turn instead of 3 months from now we should be aiming for the lower completion chances.

DecaffeinatedOwl · Oct 15, 2021

Dmol8 said:
It's a 13% chance not a 16 % chance so less than you think and I for one find any chance beneath 25% to not be worthwhile.

It's a 13% chance to save -5 PS.

If it fails, progress still carries over to the next turn. (Unless you have reason to believe the project will disappear next turn.) We still have an 88% chance to complete the project within two turns. The most we can lose taking this chance is an extra turn of not enjoying the benefits of this project.

It's well worth it. Low odds, but good payout and no real cost.

Void Stalker · Oct 15, 2021

Dmol8 said:
What. No seriously what. It's a 120 points project that I put two Die on. What shock/overkill are you talking about?

1 die still has a chance to finish, and in my view it is not a project that needs to be done this coming turn even if we want it soon. That means we can put the resources and other die on another project to make progress there. We keep doing that sort of thing over the course of the plan and we end up ahead off where we would have been otherwise.

Simon_Jester · Oct 15, 2021

Dmol8 said:
I never said that Personal Robotics was a treasure trove of Labor. I only said it had a synchronization bonus with Nuuk. Since that has in the meantime been proven incorrect. I've dropped it from my plan which you didn't quote this time. Interesting that.

My objection is that you're acting like it was a clearly known truth that there are various special benefits to the personal robotics factory, that you were confident there was a synchronization bonus with Nuuk, and so on. I have at most speculated on this, but I try to be careful to distinguish speculation from fact. You seem not to be bothering, which concerns me.

We are about to enter Tiberium War 4 so Nod will actually have cause to attack Blue Zone with infiltration/terror units at least. Point defenses on our housing are a type of infrastructure hardening that I would rather have and not need than need and not have.

Nod terror units may launch sporadic attacks on housing, but we cannot remotely plausibly retrofit any meaningful fraction of our Blue Zone residencies in a reasonable amount of time. Remember that most of the population still lives in pre-2047 housing and they don't all live in arcologies.

Another reason we cannot plausibly get point defenses for residences working in time is that we'd have to finish the naval point defense refits first, and those are going to take a quarter or two when we only have so many quarters to begin with.

And finally, Nod infiltrations and terror attacks are likely to be carefully planned, not just random assaults spraying weapons fire around randomly. This is especially true of any attacks of the kind that use vehicle-mounted weapons or other heavy weapons (the only kinds reasonably capable of damaging an arcology anyway, and the only kinds the point defenses are useful against). As such, equipping only some arcologies with point defenses is largely useless; the infiltrators will simply attack buildings that haven't been refitted recently.

So this idea of yours is a waste of resources, if it can be implemented at all.

In this we disagree as I see no greater priority in Light and Chemical Industry for next turn as we will not have enough resources to properly build up the Reykjavik Macrospinner next quarter so might as well start on something we would have done a few turns down the line.

Only if there is no option to simply do nothing in Light Industry and invest the resources in a higher priority project.

I'm not sure what sort of Dice calculations you are doing, but the option to get an extra Die on Orbital is in fact a fact:

We got a variety of offers and options. I don't think we can claim to know what we'll get next time.

staplesdex2 · Oct 15, 2021

Is there an option to have the Wartime Factory Refits be retooled to produce many of the Tech Advancements we pushed for in this quest? Because it sounds like something that should be part of the Refits instead of just continually producing stuff from the 3rd Tiberium War with very slow increments of the tech improvements made throughout the quest.

Void Stalker · Oct 15, 2021

staplesdex2 said:
Is there an option to have the Wartime Factory Refits be retooled to produce many of the Tech Advancements we pushed for in this quest? Because it sounds like something that should be part of the Refits instead of just continually producing stuff from the 3rd Tiberium War with very slow increments of the tech improvements made throughout the quest.

Sort of, as we do projects like orca deployment we will reduce the cap goods the factory refits need. Not all of them but for lines we bring a new version out and than update the lines that gets taken off the refit project.

Dmol8 · Oct 15, 2021

TripleTango said:
It's a 13% chance to save -5 PS.

If it fails, progress still carries over to the next turn. (Unless you have reason to believe the project will disappear next turn.) We still have an 88% chance to complete the project within two turns. The most we can lose taking this chance is an extra turn of not enjoying the benefits of this project.

It's well worth it. Low odds, but good payout and no real cost.

We are about to enter a war. High Health and Logistics is a must before it starts. So since this Development will be slow rolled finishing it in Q2 means we can get it done by Q4 before the war has a chance to start.

Simon_Jester said:
My objection is that you're acting like it was a clearly known truth that there are various special benefits to the personal robotics factory, that you were confident there was a synchronization bonus with Nuuk, and so on. I have at most speculated on this, but I try to be careful to distinguish speculation from fact. You seem not to be bothering, which concerns me.

Nod terror units may launch sporadic attacks on housing, but we cannot remotely plausibly retrofit any meaningful fraction of our Blue Zone residencies in a reasonable amount of time. Remember that most of the population still lives in pre-2047 housing and they don't all live in arcologies.

Another reason we cannot plausibly get point defenses for residences working in time is that we'd have to finish the naval point defense refits first, and those are going to take a quarter or two when we only have so many quarters to begin with.

And finally, Nod infiltrations and terror attacks are likely to be carefully planned, not just random assaults spraying weapons fire around randomly. This is especially true of any attacks of the kind that use vehicle-mounted weapons or other heavy weapons (the only kinds reasonably capable of damaging an arcology anyway, and the only kinds the point defenses are useful against). As such, equipping only some arcologies with point defenses is largely useless; the infiltrators will simply attack buildings that haven't been refitted recently.

So this idea of yours is a waste of resources, if it can be implemented at all.

Only if there is no option to simply do nothing in Light Industry and invest the resources in a higher priority project.

We got a variety of offers and options. I don't think we can claim to know what we'll get next time.

First I will cop to being bad at how I talked about the Personal Robotics action. I spoke like I was certain it would do what I said it would do and it didn't. My mistake. Sorry about that.

Second I just quoted the post from last time we did a Recruitment Drive and the Graduates option is the result of our education system. This means that while the 2 Die option might not be there, the 1 Die option we can expect to be there the same way we could expect the Recruitment Drive and Focus Reallocation actions to be there at the start of every Four Year Plan because they seem by their text to be general actions that can be taken at the start of each FYP.

I'm waiting for the Point Defense refits to be done to tell me if it can be implemented on other Housing, but there is a project for Yellow Zone Arcology/Fortress Towns Point Defenses locked behind the Navy project. I don't even know if the Blue Zone Arcologies can get Point Defenses. I expect that the cost of Arcologies in points will go up again if the new version isn't armed with Point Defenses already.

Again High Health is a must just as much as High Logistics is for a war footing.

Simon_Jester · Oct 16, 2021

Dmol8 said:
We are about to enter a war. High Health and Logistics is a must before it starts. So since this Development will be slow rolled finishing it in Q2 means we can get it done by Q4 before the war has a chance to start.

Ah. So you are treating this project as a crash military priority, equivalent to war mobilization in that it needs to be done now to get us ready, even at the cost of some inefficiency, because you expect the tiberium infusion technology to be important in future warfare?

I can respect that.

On the other hand, I don't think it's a good idea. GDI isn't going to be using tiberium infusions to enhance soldiers the way Nod does. It's likely to be an emergency therapy for specific cases of chronic slow-burn tiberium poisoning ("rock lung") and other such problems. As such, a delay of a few months in developing it isn't likely to have much impact on the process. It's not ideal, but given that the budget is tight and that there are an endless river of projects we can spend on that have impact, this particular project is not so urgent in my opinion.

I'm waiting for the Point Defense refits to be done to tell me if it can be implemented on other Housing, but there is a project for Yellow Zone Arcology/Fortress Towns Point Defenses locked behind the Navy project. I don't even know if the Blue Zone Arcologies can get Point Defenses. I expect that the cost of Arcologies in points will go up again if the new version isn't armed with Point Defenses already.

Again, the problem is that rolling out mass point defense coverage of all housing in GDI territory, or even the biggest concentrations, would be an insanely expensive project. Among other things, it'd be a major diversion of effort from equipping frontline forces with antimissile and anti-artillery systems of their own, and it would very rarely actually stop attacks because Nod doesn't take that many potshots deep into our rear areas.

A Yellow Zone fortress town needs antimissile and anti-artillery defenses precisely because it comes under constant attack. A Blue Zone arcology complex does not need such defenses, because the entire point of GDI's military posture is to ensure that it does NOT come under such attack.

Faraway-R · Oct 16, 2021

So I have decided to check the military and adjacent options I want to have by the time Tib War Four kicks off. Let's see how big of a megaproject it happens to be. TL: DR is provided below.

Wartime Factory Refits (Phase 1)(0/60: 20 Resources per die)(-2 Capital Goods)
Wartime Factory Refits (Phase 2)(0/90: 20 Resources per die)(-4 Capital Goods)
Long Range Sensor System Deployment (Phase 2)(26/300: 25 Resources per die)

Orca Refit Deployment (0/200: 15 Resources per die)(-1 Capital Goods)

Orbital Strike Regimental Combat Team Stations (Phase 1)(0/225: 20 Resources per die)
Orbital Nuclear Caches (Progress 0/175: 20 Resources per die)

URLMS Phase 2 (105/200: 15 Resources per die)(-2 Energy)
Shell Plants Phase 4 (3/300: 10 resources per die)(-2 Energy)
Ablat Stage 4 (45/200: 10 resources per die)

Ground Forces Zone Armor (Set 1) - six identical projects of (0/200: 20 Resources per die)(-2 Labor, - 4 Energy, - 1 Capital Goods)

Point Defense Refits (15/250: 10 Resources per die)

So nothing of this is explicitly new stuff, only putting developments into production. I will be using the latest derpmind probability array from page 678 to figure out the odds and final costs. But first, the megaproject overall progress is:

60+90+300-26+200+225+175+200-105+300-3+200-45+250-15+1200 = 3006, or 1806 without Zone Armor.

For the record I do think we should do Zone Armor at least in part, before the war goes hot again.

Final costs in economic factors:
7 Capital Goods, 4 Energy without Zone Armor
13 Capital Goods, 28 Energy, 12 Labor with Zone Armor

~~So I can definitely say that assuming Q1 and Q2 are spent on cashgrabs, we will be in position to complete non-Zone Armor projects by the time of Q1 2059. At least insofar as progress per turn goes~~. Spoke too soon. Sadly Tiberium Inhibitors aren't a good representative for progress-to-dice ratio, because completing a number of scattershot projects is a lot more demanding on dice than funneling it all into a singular megaproject.

Navy gets Priority-1 and I say 4 dice for them. 40R 69% completion.
ZOCOM vehicles need 1 die to complete for 10R.
Ablat for stockpiling next, 3 dice 30R 82%.
Reserve 1 die for project completion here (10 total)

Next is Orca Refit - 4 dice, 60R 87%.
Alongside them is Sensor System, 5 dice 125R 79%.
And another die for project completion (20 total).

Wartime Factory Refits, 3 dice reserved for 2 stages. 60R 85%.
To complete the rest of the consumables projects it's Shell Factories (5 dice for 50R 68%) and URLS Phase 2, 2 dice (30R 85%).

That's already 30 dice... We have Orbital Stations too. 4 dice on OSRCTS (80R 85%), 3 dice on Nukes (60R 80%).
And cap it all off with 3 more dice for purposes of completing projects with poor luck.

Total 40 dice to complete.

Ahem...
That's not a 3-turn affair. That's a 4-turn affair with all our 6 Free Dice spent on Military. Without even touching Zone Armor.

Below is the cost of refitting our army with already developed technology.
So. 40 dice, with 5 of those allocated to completing poorly rolling projects. 80+10+185+25+140+20+140+40 = 640 Resources, give or take a little.
7 Capital Goods and 4 Energy - good thing we have that much.

Even if it leaves us without surplus for other branches.

Overall conclusion: we're barely, barely on track for refitting our military by the end of Q2 2059 if we focus on nothing else starting Q3 2058. As a reminder, the earliest InOps tells us Nod will be able to scale up the warfare is after Q1 2059.

The stretch goal of Zone Armor (Set 1), and the demands of other branches of Industry, at this point of time will require 18 dice minimum, but probably 24-25 spent over 3 more quarters, in the Military category alone. We will also need another round of Fusion (5-6 Heavy Industry dice), maybe two (5-6 more) considering the costs of Nuuk Phase 1+2+3 (18-ish Heavy Industry Dice), and, for Labor-saving, 8 Services dice for one Phase of Prosthetics and Automatic Medical Assistants.

We might, might, be able to complete Zone Armor (Set 1) by the beginning of 2061, when Nod is all but guaranteed to go TW4 on us... And that is assuming Nod hasn't done so yet.

Simon_Jester · Oct 16, 2021

Faraway-R said:
So I have decided to check the military and adjacent options I want to have by the time Tib War Four kicks off. Let's see how big of a megaproject it happens to be. TL: DR is provided below.

Wartime Factory Refits (Phase 1)(0/60: 20 Resources per die)(-2 Capital Goods)
Wartime Factory Refits (Phase 2)(0/90: 20 Resources per die)(-4 Capital Goods)
Long Range Sensor System Deployment (Phase 2)(26/300: 25 Resources per die)

Orca Refit Deployment (0/200: 15 Resources per die)(-1 Capital Goods)

Orbital Strike Regimental Combat Team Stations (Phase 1)(0/225: 20 Resources per die)
Orbital Nuclear Caches (Progress 0/175: 20 Resources per die)

URLMS Phase 2 (105/200: 15 Resources per die)(-2 Energy)
Shell Plants Phase 4 (3/300: 10 resources per die)(-2 Energy)
Ablat Stage 4 (45/200: 10 resources per die)

Ground Forces Zone Armor (Set 1) - six identical projects of (0/200: 20 Resources per die)(-2 Labor, - 4 Energy, - 1 Capital Goods)

Point Defense Refits (15/250: 10 Resources per die)

So nothing of this is explicitly new stuff, only putting developments into production. I will be using the latest derpmind probability array from page 678 to figure out the odds and final costs. But first, the megaproject overall progress is:

60+90+300-26+200+225+175+200-105+300-3+200-45+250-15+1200 = 3006, or 1806 without Zone Armor.

For the record I do think we should do Zone Armor at least in part, before the war goes hot again.

I think that depends on when the war kicks off.

Do I think it's realistic for us to manage mass Zone Armor rollouts by mid-2059, the earliest that we think Nod might kick the war off? No.

Do I think it's realistic for us to be at least beginning to accomplish that by mid-2061, the latest time we think Nod is likely to wait for? Probably.

Though, uh. I think we should tack escort carriers onto the list of projects we should REALLY look into. Because having flexible naval aviation capabilities and being able to defend our convoys well are both very important. And if the Governor yards are any guide that chains into a whole series of factories that we should at least consider slamming out, right up there with the Zone Armor plants.

Though to be fair, Zone Armor mass production could save a lot of lives during the war.

Final costs in economic factors:
7 Capital Goods, 4 Energy without Zone Armor
13 Capital Goods, 28 Energy, 12 Labor with Zone Armor

~~So I can definitely say that assuming Q1 and Q2 are spent on cashgrabs, we will be in position to complete non-Zone Armor projects by the time of Q1 2059. At least insofar as progress per turn goes~~. Spoke too soon. Sadly Tiberium Inhibitors aren't a good representative for progress-to-dice ratio, because completing a number of scattershot projects is a lot more demanding on dice than funneling it all into a singular megaproject.

Navy gets Priority-1 and I say 4 dice for them. 40R 69% completion.
ZOCOM vehicles need 1 die to complete for 10R.
Ablat for stockpiling next, 3 dice 30R 82%.
Reserve 1 die for project completion here (10 total)

Next is Orca Refit - 4 dice, 60R 87%.
Alongside them is Sensor System, 5 dice 125R 79%.
And another die for project completion (20 total).

Wartime Factory Refits, 3 dice reserved for 2 stages. 60R 85%.
To complete the rest of the consumables projects it's Shell Factories (5 dice for 50R 68%) and URLS Phase 2, 2 dice (30R 85%).

That's already 30 dice... We have Orbital Stations too. 4 dice on OSRCTS (80R 85%), 3 dice on Nukes (60R 80%).
And cap it all off with 3 more dice for purposes of completing projects with poor luck.

Total 40 dice to complete.

Ahem...
That's not a 3-turn affair. That's a 4-turn affair with all our 6 Free Dice spent on Military. Without even touching Zone Armor.

Yep!

We're gonna have to prioritize. There's a fair chance that we have until some time in 2060 or later for the war to start, but we need very much to push the specific military actions that will be most impactful. I know we want everything, but still...

The biggest priorities, I think, are Long Range Sensor System Deployment (Phase 2), Orbital Nuclear Caches (Progress 0/175: 20 Resources per die) because those are anti-masterstroke preparations. Being able to see a cloaked Nod assault coming, or having the nukes conveniently "your princess is in another castle'd" would really make a difference in the admittedly uncertain possibility that Nod chooses to use those specific measures.

(Mad sciencing a Stealth Disruptor is not necessarily a bad idea and we should seriously consider it despite the costs. Stealth is HUGE in Nod's arsenal and the good roll we got on counter-stealth positions us to massively screw them over. The more counter-stealth we prepare during the runup to a war where Nod is likely to still be fighting within the paradigm of their stealth being good, the more effective this is)

Orbital Strike Regimental Combat Team Stations is just down from the sensors and orbital nukes, because again, it's a powerful anti-masterstroke option. The only reason I don't rate it up with the other two is because it's likely that we will need to complete multiple phases for the system to be fully effective, so it may be impractical to fulfill this project to its true potential in the time available before "early Tib War Four" scenarios.

...

Then right after that, well, everything else on your list. That's all stuff where if we have it half-finished before the war blows up and go OH SHIT and complete it in a hurry, it won't be good, but it's still survivable. It's not immediate top-priority "we need this in place by Day One of the war to keep Nod from planting a knife in our backs before the war even starts" stuff.

Although also added to your list are, in my opinion, escort carriers and the Paladin MBT-7 tank. I think we should roll out the Paladin in late 2059, even if it means that we don't have much production of it when the war starts. Having something good to arm the tip of the spear with is very useful even if the bulk of the armed forces is still using the heavily refitted MBT-6 Block ?? version we've just got done refitting.

EDIT:

On the other hand, we need to keep the total Resource cost of our military buildup under control for the next couple of turns as we finish rebuilding our income stream (and bearing in mind that we may see heavy fighting in a lot of areas, and that we will desperately need to build a new wave of tiberium refineries before the war begins). So we might need to lead with stuff like Shell Plants and Ablatives just because it's so cheap.

Faraway-R · Oct 16, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
Snip

So first, you need to put a quote bracket correctly, it bugs me that one is missing.

Next, I generally agree with your priorities. Orbitals and Sensors should come early, though Navy is going to shoot us if we shaft their point defenses so they still come first.

As for your suggested additions - Escort Carriers should carry high priority simply on the fact they are slow to build. I don't like it, but they should go ahead of Zone Armor in the list, perhaps even competing with other projects.

MBT-7 Paladin on the other hand is a very "nice to have" project. I don't expect it to have the same priority as others.

Stealth Disruptor? Possibly good. Though I really have trouble figuring out how it's supposed to work.

Add a Havoc Scout Mech then if we are talking development. It's a bone to throw at both ZOCOM and Steel Talons. ZOCOM may become better able to support our RZ mining advances and Steel Talons might stay afloat at Low confidence and not drop even lower.

So 4x development projects then, Escort Carrier, Havoc, Stealth Disruptor, and MBT-7 as a cherry on top.

I would add Harvesters but they are technically Tiberium Dice and do not strain Military. So keep them in mind anyway.

Crazycryodude · Oct 16, 2021

I really don't think we're looking at Tib War 4, Kane's not ready for that yet and given how well the GDI is doing he would probably come to us first and only pull the trigger on TW4 if we say no to his deal and need to get cut down to size. Whatever's brewing is the warlords planning their own counterpunch to GDI's offensives last year, not a full capital letters Tiberium War. It'll go in the history books as one of the big interwar flareups but it's not going to be a sustained world war. We're looking at like a 3 mission prequel campaign at most IMO, it'll definitely be notable but NOD isn't about to pull out all the stops and launch a full TW just because they lost some peripheral territory.

Simon_Jester · Oct 16, 2021

Faraway-R said:
So first, you need to put a quote bracket correctly, it bugs me that one is missing.

Quite the contrary- I ended a quote block prematurely and 'orphaned' some of its content out where it would mix in with my own writing.

Next, I generally agree with your priorities. Orbitals and Sensors should come early, though Navy is going to shoot us if we shaft their point defenses so they still come first.

The underlying catch is that we "have to" spend the next few turns doing projects that are cheap per die even if they aren't really our top priorities to have mobilized before the war.

On the bright side this will buy us time to build up much larger stockpiles of consumables.

As for your suggested additions - Escort Carriers should carry high priority simply on the fact they are slow to build. I don't like it, but they should go ahead of Zone Armor in the list, perhaps even competing with other projects.

Escort carriers will hopefully be faster to build than cruisers. Historically, escort carriers have tended to be designed off of hulls that more closely resemble civilian designs, and may (notionally) be smaller not only than our battleships and fleet carriers but also our heavy guided missile cruisers.

Honestly what we really need, given that our main naval aviation arm is VTOL-based, may well be something like this, quite small and cheap by warship standards, though who knows what @Ithillid has in mind.

MBT-7 Paladin on the other hand is a very "nice to have" project. I don't expect it to have the same priority as others.

Maybe. But we should at least do the development and maybe get a single production line running somewhere.

I know all the standard arguments for "no wunderwaffen" and stuff, but the thing is... it's Command and Conquer. There are going to be some very specific critical battles and theaters of operations, where having even a relatively limited number of better weapons could do us a lot of good. This is basically the same argument for mass Zone Armor rollouts.

I'd be willing to spend the effort equivalent of one or two Zone Armor factories to at least have SOME production capacity for Paladins and have enough to equip, like, one or two divisions. If only so we can get realistic combat performance reports and know whether to prioritize building more of them.

Stealth Disruptor? Possibly good. Though I really have trouble figuring out how it's supposed to work.

Push button, mad science happens, cloaked objects become uncloaked, cackling ensues.

Add a Havoc Scout Mech then if we are talking development. It's a bone to throw at both ZOCOM and Steel Talons. ZOCOM may become better able to support our RZ mining advances and Steel Talons might stay afloat at Low confidence and not drop even lower.

At this point I'm getting a bit embittered about the Havoc project because I keep suggesting it over and over and people tell me "no, we won't start the deployment literally next turn so we shouldn't bother."

It's frustrating, because it makes it very easy to pawn off responsibility for ever starting a project. And given that it's a niche weapon system used by ZOCOM and the Talons, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be that expensive of a project, either.

Crazycryodude said:
I really don't think we're looking at Tib War 4, Kane's not ready for that yet and given how well the GDI is doing he would probably come to us first and only pull the trigger on TW4 if we say no to his deal and need to get cut down to size. Whatever's brewing is the warlords planning their own counterpunch to GDI's offensives last year, not a full capital letters Tiberium War. It'll go in the history books as one of the big interwar flareups but it's not going to be a sustained world war. We're looking at like a 3 mission prequel campaign at most IMO, it'll definitely be notable but NOD isn't about to pull out all the stops and launch a full TW just because they lost some peripheral territory.

I mean maybe.

On the other hand, if we're reasonably ready to fight a full Tib War, those warlords are gonna come out of this looking pretty stupid for picking a fight with a buzzsaw.

Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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