I can't imagine any sane circumstances in which I would ever allow that redlining, and as you have written Granger and The New Guy, I can't imagine them doing it either.
What about under a demand where you either do an 1800-3000 point project to fill out the arcology program, or do a 600-1200 point program to just house blue zoners. Or just do a 600 point program, and kick the yellow zoners out.
 
This is why government run economy has only been seen with authoritarian governments, because then you have portions of the government saying tough shit we have other stuff to do when people write letters to their representatives. A large majority of the BZ population is in low quality housing and they want better, it doesn't matter what we think. Slow rolling it will just make people mad at us and think we don't care about their needs or wants.
 
Basically, we should address this issue now-ish while it is still just a polite suggestion (by our own party, too) and we can dictate how we go about it. Otherwise, if we wait until next plan or when it becomes a crisis point, we might not like the options we have to choose due to political pressure created by the IF and FMP.
 
How soon can we start hooking more yellow zones into the GDI's E-democracy system as this will lead directly to the growth of United yellow party who are diametrically opposed to the IF party for obvious reasons , if we can get UY on par with IF then they can shut down their worst tendencies by voting against them , plus if we can fully hook up the yellow zones to the GDI's E-democracy then we might unlock all sorts of new options for the yellow zones and maybe even free dice as well
 
What about under a demand where you either do an 1800-3000 point project to fill out the arcology program, or do a 600-1200 point program to just house blue zoners. Or just do a 600 point program, and kick the yellow zoners out.
Wow. You are a skilled writer.
I'm looking at something from a universe that I know is fully fictional, and these words have me seeing fucking red.

(I can also see your point about how the pressures bigots create using what power they hold are genuinely impactful.)
 
What is wrong with living in commieblocks? They can be fine! Can we use our surplus of them to connect apartments to increase area per person, or do modernisation program to improve conditions, or something? To at least delay demands.
 
Basically, we should address this issue now-ish while it is still just a polite suggestion (by our own party, too) and we can dictate how we go about it. Otherwise, if we wait until next plan or when it becomes a crisis point, we might not like the options we have to choose due to political pressure created by the IF and FMP.
But do we need to do housing immediately this turn? What's the downside to waiting a turn or two while we finish the Rail Link Reconstruction first, especially since the railways are the other half of the request?
 
What is wrong with living in commieblocks? They can be fine! Can we use our surplus of them to connect apartments to increase area per person, or do modernisation program to improve conditions, or something? To at least delay demands.
For one thing, the arcologies are future-tech complicated structures with multiple integrated systems. They need to be built from the ground up to work. We can't convert our current housing into arcology-level housing without first demolishing the current construction that's already there. And secondly, now that we're climbing out of our Consumer Goods hole the biggest personal posession people are going to want now is high-quality housing.

Also, if I could get the government to build me 2050s level housing, for free, I'd be bugging my representatives to have that done too.
 
@Ithillid how do you intend to simulate the free market economy and its effects ?
So, as I intended to handle it, there would be broadly three phases of simulation, each representing a broad section of capital accumulation and organizational growth. In the first phase (where you are now) markets are handled as essentially black boxes where you feed resources in and goods come out. This represents a constant churn of small companies. It is a lot of mom and pop shops or small businesses producing some goods for sale. The second phase is the financialization/politicization of the system, where you start seeing individual companies that are producing their own capital, and you can begin extracting real value in taxation. Third and finally is the actual financial simulation aspect where they start being able to do their own thing in a much more real way, and placing actual demands on your system.
 
There is an insidiousness to the Blue Zone arcologies that I think is being overlooked. For every person that we are able to house in opulence and comfort, we are leaving another vulnerable to Tiberium and NOD.

That isn't so much of a concern when Tiberium isn't mutating, NOD is on the defensive, and our population isn't growing. Each and every one of those elements is going to change very, very soon. Blue Zone arcologies are a political trap, that are designed to have a greater and greater number of yellow zoners killed in fortress towns to the indifference of the lucky ones who got theirs. We have three ways to avoid it:
-obscene investment into blue zone arcologies, crowding out other investments
-token investment into blur zone arcologies, with heavy investment into yellow zone arcologies
-invest in space habitation while investing an average amount in arcologies, thus shifting the demand from luxury housing to evacuation
 
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There is an insidiousness to the Blue Zone arcologies that I think is being overlooked. For every person that we are able to house in opulence and comfort, we are leaving another vulnerable to Tiberium and NOD.

Other than diverting resources that could be used on other housing, I don't see how this is the case. We aren't taking down existing house to build arcologies, so it's still a net increase in housing.
 
But do we need t o do housing immediately this turn? What's the downside to waiting a turn or two while we finish the Rail Link Reconstruction first, especially since the railways are the other half of the request?

I'd suggest putting at least 1 dice per turn into the BZ Arcologies so we can show we are at least doing something to address the issue. Getting stuff done slowly but eventually is seen as a common government hallmark.
 
I feel like the risk about not doing BZ Arco this turn is a bit overstated.
- We will be doing Rail Links, which is also High Priority
- Mecca/Jeddah although not marked High Priority, literally has Political Support attached to it, so its not like we will get whacked by Parliament for doing it.

So the argument IMO is really about taking dice away from Tidal, which has a 51% chance to complete with 2 dice. I dont particularly see a reason to take dice away from Tidal or slow roll it further, when it looks like Inhibitors are getting done this turn, so our Energy consumption is going to be bigger next turn.
 
Shaking a dice loose so the Blue Zones can have a little pork, as a treat, isn't too big a deal. It's not a urgent matter tho.

Aside from that, we should aim to triple our current housing long term, as that will get us enough space for everyone on Earth.

@Ithillid, how 'luxurious' are BZ arcologies exactly?
 
The important thing for political optics is making steady progress, not careening from shock effort to shock effort in the "something is either totally ignored or gets 100% of our attention" paradigm. That works well enough when there's a hard time limit on when industrial civilization is going to collapse unless we get X, Y, and Z done but that phase of the game is very much over. If this was real life something on the scale of Boston or Nuuk or a major arcology program or really anything bigger than a hundred or so points would take a decade to do, Planquests already work on absurdly accelerated timescales and the obsession with needing to get major projects done in a few months compresses it to totally unreasonable timelines.

If we slowly chip away at something for years on end that's not a failure to respond that's how a functional bureaucracy that can plan more than 6 months ahead functions. We talk so much shit about how central planning is superior to the capitalist mode of production because our horizon isn't limited to the next quarterly report but then we behave exactly like the only thing that matters is the next quarterly report because people like to see green on the results tally. It's ok to not finish things for like 10 turns if that's what it takes, as long as you're running a bunch of stuff in parallel and the people can see we really are making a good faith effort on a reasonable timeline to respond to what they want.
 
So, as I intended to handle it, there would be broadly three phases of simulation, each representing a broad section of capital accumulation and organizational growth. In the first phase (where you are now) markets are handled as essentially black boxes where you feed resources in and goods come out. This represents a constant churn of small companies. It is a lot of mom and pop shops or small businesses producing some goods for sale. The second phase is the financialization/politicization of the system, where you start seeing individual companies that are producing their own capital, and you can begin extracting real value in taxation. Third and finally is the actual financial simulation aspect where they start being able to do their own thing in a much more real way, and placing actual demands on your system.
As you said that you Intended to handle it that way does that mean it's now changed or is this still the system your using?
 
The important thing for political optics is making steady progress, not careening from shock effort to shock effort in the "something is either totally ignored or gets 100% of our attention" paradigm. That works well enough when there's a hard time limit on when industrial civilization is going to collapse unless we get X, Y, and Z done but that phase of the game is very much over. If this was real life something on the scale of Boston or Nuuk or a major arcology program or really anything bigger than a hundred or so points would take a decade to do, Planquests already work on absurdly accelerated timescales and the obsession with needing to get major projects done in a few months compresses it to totally unreasonable timelines.

If we slowly chip away at something for years on end that's not a failure to respond that's how a functional bureaucracy that can plan more than 6 months ahead functions. We talk so much shit about how central planning is superior to the capitalist mode of production because our horizon isn't limited to the next quarterly report but then we behave exactly like the only thing that matters is the next quarterly report because people like to see green on the results tally. It's ok to not finish things for like 10 turns if that's what it takes, as long as you're running a bunch of stuff in parallel and the people can see we really are making a good faith effort on a reasonable timeline to respond to what they want.

Unfortunately, the game mechanics do not capture that. Rather it's more efficient to finish thing quickly in order to generate comparative turn advantage.
 
As you said that you Intended to handle it that way does that mean it's now changed or is this still the system your using?
Mostly it means that you just won't get parts of it over the life cycle of the quest. Because people have been bound and determined to focus heavily on central planning rather than engaging with the grants mechanics.
@Ithillid, how 'luxurious' are BZ arcologies exactly?
Fairly spacious in the actual apartments, but the big win is that they have pretty much everything right on top of you. Libraries are just around the corner, swimming pools, bars, dance floors, theaters. You can live a very happy life never leaving the building.
 
Unfortunately, the game mechanics do not capture that. Rather it's more efficient to finish thing quickly in order to generate comparative turn advantage.

Only during the ramp up period where you have to wait for the staggered large projects to start rolling in. Once the completions do start rolling in you keep getting projects completing pretty steadily. 6 years ago we were in a position where we need Project X done now or the farms will stop working, that kind of environment does necessitate rushing down key projects even just a turn or two earlier because society is literally collapsing around us. But that's over, we're through the emergency, we're solidly into the midgame and have to settle in for a war of attrition against NOD, Tiberium, capitalism, whatever your personal boogeyman is. Not getting maximal shinies ASAP for a year or two is fine if it lets us shift to a more balanced development paradigm that actually fits our environment better, we don't need to squeeze every last virtual compounding + out of the system every quarter anymore. It's not really any different from squeezing every last virtual compounding dollar of profit out of every quarter in a capitalist economy, we're just ruthlessly maximizing a different number it doesn't make us care about people more.

Which I think is the point, a centrally planned economy doesn't make you magically inherently more moral. We just maximize different numbers, the incentives to maximize whatever number you've decided is important at the expense of other parts of society doesn't go away, we're just not forced to maximize or die like in a capitalist system. But we have to intentionally choose not to min-max it, the only thing central planning does is open up the choice to not min-max despite it being INEFFISHUNT from a raw numbers perspective, because it allows human input from the humans running the thing rather than the entire economy functioning on an alien algorithm of "you must maximize this number or die." The humans in charge need to actually provide an input other than "maximize the number" for that to happen though.
 
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The priority system is what other government departments thinks are needed and when we get direct messages from parliament members then we have left the issue for too long. Some of our housing is from when we were emergency crisis/only a year away from complete collapse of society and we haven't really bothered to make it better.
 
Central Planning's brutality can only be toned by the presence of powerful goverment worker unions which can and will force the buerocrats to not literally sacrifices people on the altar of "Numbers Going Up".

Unions should be the intended infornation feedback system of Central Planning.
 
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Other than diverting resources that could be used on other housing, I don't see how this is the case. We aren't taking down existing house to build arcologies, so it's still a net increase in housing.
For every die and every resource spent on blue zone arcologies, that same amount of dice and same amount of resources would generate about twice as much housing in yellow zone arcologies. We do not have infinite dice, nor infinite resources. Thus, by creating a luxury apartment and a windfall for a single family, we leave another family vulnerable to tiberium and NOD that could have been (relatively) safe.

To me, this calculus changes when we no longer have families stuck in fortress towns. Once we have our populace in the relative safety of yellow zone arcologies, then I'll be interested in investing into maximizing our people's comfort.
 
For every die and every resource spent on blue zone arcologies, that same amount of dice and same amount of resources would generate twice as much housing in yellow zone arcologies. We do not have infinite dice, nor infinite resources. Thus, by creating a luxury apartment and a windfall for a single family, we leave another family vulnerable to tiberium and NOD that could have been (relatively) safe.

To me, this calculus changes when we no longer have families stuck in fortress towns. Once we have our populace in the relative safety of yellow zone arcologies, then I'll be interested in investing into maximizing our people's comfort.

This is only true once we run out of any housing to put refugees in at all. We still have 15 points worth of empty beds in safe locations to put refugees in, they just won't be particularly comfortable by soft Blue Zoner standards but "has running water, breathable air, and the scary dudes with guns are mostly GDI peace officers who don't shake you down for half your rations and even use their guns to stop other people from shaking you down" is positively luxurious compared to where most Yellow Zoners come from so it's not a huge deal. If/when the refugee hose opens up wide enough that we start running out of housing points then yeah building fancy BZ palaces while putting a "fuck off we're full" sign up at all the YZ borders would be bad, but right now it isn't an either-or situation. There's still plenty of slack left to soak up refugees before we have to start making that choice.
 
You know? Initiative First wants Arcologies in Blue Zones? Fine. Let's build them Arcologies in Blue Zones...Arcologies which had been designed to be build in Yellow Zones and to be cheap.

Let's force the fuckers to show their hand that it is not about BZ arcologies but them eating up precious resources needed to save everyone just to live materially better than their perceived lessers do. Let's force them on the defensive or to unmask. The latter would be great.
 
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