Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

Void Stalker · Aug 12, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
Fair enough- although Fertilizers is a good option if we don't have high-priority industrial chemistry projects running at a particular moment in time.

Macrospinners is just more cap goods and energy which we need more than the food and cons good. More so since we have those rolling in from agri and services. Also of the 4 Cap Good and Energy tend to be our restraints. I favor Macro over Semiconudctors right now due to the cost per dice being lower plus the boost to mech and for the last two phases zone suit actions.

Mortis · Aug 12, 2021

TripleTango said:
snip

Thanks for such a detailed analysis, this is really helpful. Here's an improved version of the plan, with better explanations:

Resources:‌ ‌615 ‌+‌ ‌0 ‌in‌ ‌reserve‌ ‌(15‌ ‌allocated‌ ‌to‌ ‌the‌ ‌Forgotten)‌ ‌(20‌ ‌allocated‌ ‌to‌ ‌grants)‌ ‌
Resources used 610

Political‌ ‌Support:‌ ‌50‌ ‌
Free‌ ‌Dice:‌ ‌6‌ ‌
Fusion‌ ‌Dice:‌ ‌7 ‌(+1‌ ‌per‌ ‌turn)‌ ‌ ‌

[ ] Plan Tides, Stations, and Chips
Infrastructure (5 dice) 5/5 60R
-[ ] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 3) (3 dice) (30 R)
(progress 154/300: 10 resources per die) (+++ Energy)
-[ ] Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 2) (2 dice) (30 R)
(Progress 3/600: 15 Resources per Die) (++++ Housing, +++ Consumer Goods, -- Energy) (High Priority)
Heavy Industry (5 dice) 5/5 80R
-[ ] Synchronized Cycle Fusion Plants (1 die) (20 R) 70%
(Progress 289/350: 20 Resources per Die) (++++ Energy) (High Priority)
-[ ] North Boston Chip Fabricator (Phase 4) (4 dice) (60 R)
(Progress 116/1200: 15 resources per die) ( +++++ Capital Goods ++++ Consumer Goods -- Labor --- Energy)
Light and Chemical Industry (4 dice) 3/4 60R
-[ ] Johannesburg Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 3) (3 dice) (60 R)
(Progress 308/360: 20 resources per die) (++ Capital Goods, + Energy) (Reduces cost of mech projects) (High Priority)
Agriculture (3 dice) 3/3 40R
-[ ] Yellow Zone Purification Facilities (Phase 1) (2 dice) (20 R) 37%
(Progress 0/160: 10 resources per die) (++++ Water, - Energy)
-[ ] Entari Deployment (1 die) (20 R)
(progress 173/200: 20 resources per die) (++++ Food, Increases efficiency of agriculture systems)
Tiberium (5 dice) 5/5 110R
-[ ] Mecca/Jeddah Planned City (Phase 2) (2 dice) (40 R)
(Progress 116/320: 20 resources per die) (--- Labor) (5 Political Support) (+1 Red Zone Abatement, +1 Yellow Zone Abatement, +60 Processing Capacity)
-[ ] Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting (Phase 5) (2 dice) (40 R)
(Progress 60/300?: 20 resources per die) (small additional income trickle [5-10 Resources]) (4 points of Yellow Zone Mitigation) (High Priority)
-[ ] Tiberium Inhibitor Development (1 die) (30 R) 91%
(Progress 0/60: 30 resources per die)
Orbital (3 dice + 2 free dice) 5/3 110R
-[ ] Gravitic Drive Development (1 die) (30 R) 99%
(Progress 40/60: 30 resources per die)
-[ ] GDSS Shala (Phase 1) (4 fusion dice) (80 R) Phase 1 99%, Phase 2 65%
(Progress 0/85: 30 resources per die) (5 Political Support) (Fusion)
(Progress 0/170: 30 resources per die) (.1k permanent residents) (+ Food) (5 Political Support)
Services (4 dice) 3/4 30R
-[ ] Domestic Animal Programs (3 dice) (30 R) 87%
(Progress 0/200: 10 resources per die) (-- - Food, ++ Consumer Goods) (5 Political Support)
Military (5 dice + 3 free dice) 8/5 120R
-[ ] Reclamator Fleet RZ-7 North (1 die) (20 R)
--[ ] Super MARVs
(progress 141/210: 20 resources per die) (3 Points Red Zone Mitigation, 25 RpT)
-[ ] Remote Weapons System Deployment Predator (4 dice) (40 R) 73%
(Progress 0/240: 10 Resources Per die) (High Priority)
-[ ] Governor Class Cruiser Shipyards (2 die) (40 R)
-- [ ] Vladivostok (Progress 66/200: 20 resources per die) (- Capital Goods, -- Energy, - Labor)
-[ ] Governor Class Cruiser Shipyards (1 die) (20 R)
-- [ ] Durban (Progress 148/200: 20 resources per die) (- Capital Goods, -- Energy, - Labor)
Bureaucracy (3 dice + 1 free dice) 4/3 0R
-[ ] Expand Union Support (4 dice) 95%
While already better supported than at any previous point in GDI's history, there is more that can be done. While potentially politically unpopular, supporting and shepherding measures to allow unions to operate unimpeded and unharried can mean that workers are more able to advocate for their own purposes.
(DC 90/120/150/180) (-10 Political Support)

First, I'm putting three dice on tidal power because this plan could complete both shipyards, draining four power. In a worst case energy scenario, both shipyards and the purification facilities finish, draining five power and the synch plants fail, but the macrospinner and tidal plants are both guaranteed to complete, leaving us at 1 power, and definitely able to finish the synch plants next turn for +8.
Railways are nice but can wait.
I cut the fertiliser plants to put another dice on the macrospinner, it is a really great project and gives us some cap goods while we're building Boston.
Two dice on Mecca will make some progress, though it won't finish another phase.
Two dice on yellow zone harvesting to get both some mitigation, and expand our territory to take the fight to NOD.
Finally, military. Cutting refitting the factories to attempt completing both shipyards. Finishing the MARVs.
I know we just completed several developments, but we completed the RWS development turns ago, should have done it years ago, and it's still not out. We really need to just get it done. If the new projects are really shiny, I can shuffle things round.

I have 5 R left over, so that can either be saved for next turn, or used to upgrade a die, likely for the new mil projects.

Ithillid · Aug 12, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
Everyone, while hitting our Food target comes first, Spider Cotton just got promoted up the menu. Seriously, Capital Goods from Agriculture dice!? Too good to pass up.

What is a plant, especially once you start seriously poking at the genes, but a very quick and dirty molecular fabricator? Is it efficient? Not compared to your systems. Is it cheap? Heck Yes.

DecaffeinatedOwl · Aug 12, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
As to Yellow Zone Purification and Aquaponics, I see it like this. To be reasonably confident of clearing one phase of Purification, we need 3 dice and 30 R (84; it's only 37% with two dice). Two more dice and we clear Aquaponics Phase 4 (76% chance), netting +4 Food and +2 Consumer Goods for a total of 5 dice, 50 R, and -1 Energy.

By contrast, 3 dice and 45 R into Fertilizer Plants gives us a 59% chance of +4 Food and +4 Consumer Goods for a total of 3 dice, 45 R, and -1 Energy.

We might roll badly and take four or more dice on the fertilizer program, but then, we might have to take 6+ dice on the aquaponics route.

Now, given that we're kind of slow-walking agriculture to just minimally complete our Plan targets, and that cheap, easily activated dice are something we love, there's a good argument for going Aquaponics on the strength of that.

But if we were seriously trying to fill out a Food commitment and actually worrying about it, Fertilizer Plants would be our friend... which, come to think of it, is a good argument for keeping it in reserve for next Plan.

Looking at it in more detail...

Fertilizer has three price points: 30R for 2 dice, 11%, 45R for 3 dice, 59%, and 60R for 4 dice, 91%.

Both Aquaponics and Purification are 10R per die projects, so for them combined price points break down to 30, 40, 50, and 60R.

Now, this might be slightly useless, but there might be a way to see the cost efficiency of these projects in terms of percentage chance to complete per R.

For Fertilizers that would look like
30R: 2 dice in F. 11% to complete. 0.36% per R.
45R: 3 dice in F. 59% to complete. 1.31% per R.
60R: 4 dice in F. 91% to complete. 1.52% per R.

For Aquaponics and Purification,
30R: 2 dice in P, 1 dice in A. ~05% to complete. 0.16% per R.
40R: 2 dice in P, 2 dice in A. ~28% to complete. 0.70% per R
50R: 3 dice in P, 2 dice in A. ~63% to complete. 1.26% per R.
60R: 3 dice in P, 3 dice in A. ~81% to complete. 1.35% per R

Which seems to indicate that Aquaponics is not, in fact, cheaper than Fertilizers, at least in terms of resource efficiency.

For Perrienials Stage 2,
20R: 2 dice, 02% to complete. 1.00% per R.
30R: 3 dice, 39% to complete. 1.30% per R.
40R: 4 dice, 80% to complete. 2.00% per R.
50R: 5 dice, 96% to complete. 1.92% per R.

Which handily beats the pants off both if we're willing to wait two years.

Derpmind · Aug 12, 2021

We want YZ Aquaponics for political reasons, too. It helps our YZ cities be more self-sufficient, which is always an important goal. And while it's not the most Resource-efficient project we might have it's still more affordable than many of our options.

Also, if you want to save Resources in Agriculture, [ ] Large Strategic Food Stockpile costs 0R but puts a die to good use. The sooner we do it, the better too.

Simon_Jester said:
Also, we may need to throw Free dice at Heavy Industry for the next several turns if we want Energy and Capital Goods on a meaningful scale in the final stages of the current Plan. Even if we take North Boston Phase 4 instead of Nuuk Phases 1+2+3 going forward (and to be clear, I prefer the latter)... We have a lot of heavy industry investment to make, just in terms of raw dice, and it's all in projects that are 15-20 R/die. There's not a lot of room left to squeeze out more Energy without Heavy Industry dice, and military demand's not gonna go away.

It's far easier to manage our Energy by doing Boston instead of Nuuk. Boston Phase 4 will cost 4 Energy, but Nuuk Phases 1+2+3 will cost 12 Energy total. That 8 extra Energy isn't cheap.

Cursix · Aug 12, 2021

Aren't we short on water in the YZs? Aquaponics isn't very feasible right now.

DecaffeinatedOwl · Aug 12, 2021

Cursix said:
Aren't we short on water in the YZs? Aquaponics isn't very feasible right now.

Which is why Aquaponics is effectively a 4-6 dice project--we have to complete at least one phase of Purification first.

Which, handily, also helps make the YZ more independent, so that's nice too.

Simon_Jester · Aug 12, 2021

Void Stalker said:
Macrospinners is just more cap goods and energy which we need more than the food and cons good.

It is, but I was trying to keep overall resource commitments low (because military goals) by being confident of finishing Phase 3 and not a lot more. So I wasn't monofocusing light industry on the macrospinner project.

There are ways for me to shake loose more resources in my draft plan, but I've learned from experience not to put too much mental energy into writing my own plans.

Mortis said:
[ ] Plan Tides, Stations, and Chips
Infrastructure (5 dice) 5/5 60R
-[ ] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 3) (3 dice) (30 R)
(progress 154/300: 10 resources per die) (+++ Energy)
-[ ] Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 2) (2 dice) (30 R)
(Progress 3/600: 15 Resources per Die) (++++ Housing, +++ Consumer Goods, -- Energy) (High Priority)

Actually finishing that round of Arcologies will take like a year, maybe more. There's almost certainly a reason why Rail Links is high priority, and I'm pretty sure it's something a bit more urgent.

-[ ] Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting (Phase 5) (2 dice) (40 R)
(Progress 60/300?: 20 resources per die) (small additional income trickle [5-10 Resources]) (4 points of Yellow Zone Mitigation) (High Priority)

Will we be able to pursue that without slamming into Nod?

Military (5 dice + 3 free dice) 8/5 120R
-[ ] Reclamator Fleet RZ-7 North (1 die) (20 R)
--[ ] Super MARVs
(progress 141/210: 20 resources per die) (3 Points Red Zone Mitigation, 25 RpT)
-[ ] Remote Weapons System Deployment Predator (4 dice) (40 R) 73%
(Progress 0/240: 10 Resources Per die) (High Priority)
-[ ] Governor Class Cruiser Shipyards (2 die) (40 R)
-- [ ] Vladivostok (Progress 66/200: 20 resources per die) (- Capital Goods, -- Energy, - Labor)
-[ ] Governor Class Cruiser Shipyards (1 die) (20 R)
-- [ ] Durban (Progress 148/200: 20 resources per die) (- Capital Goods, -- Energy, - Labor)

This lineup basically ignores the Air Force and does nothing to deploy any of the stuff we developed last turn. That is probably a mistake; we're gonna need Free dice on the military in quantity again this turn.

Derpmind said:
We want YZ Aquaponics for political reasons, too. It helps our YZ cities be more self-sufficient, which is always an important goal. And while it's not the most Resource-efficient project we might have it's still more affordable than many of our options.

Also, if you want to save Resources in Agriculture, [ ] Large Strategic Food Stockpile costs 0R but puts a die to good use. The sooner we do it, the better too.

Not a bad idea, I suppose.

It's far easier to manage our Energy by doing Boston instead of Nuuk. Boston Phase 4 will cost 4 Energy, but Nuuk Phases 1+2+3 will cost 12 Energy total. That 8 extra Energy isn't cheap.

Hm.

THAT is a good point. +8 Energy is hard to whistle up, especially since our best options for it directly compete with Heavy Industry projects for dice. We may have to grit our teeth and just keep working on fusion and North Boston for this plan, and rely on widespread fusion reactors as the thing that enables Nuuk next plan.

Mortis · Aug 12, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
Actually finishing that round of Arcologies will take like a year, maybe more. There's almost certainly a reason why Rail Links is high priority, and I'm pretty sure it's something a bit more urgent.

The arcologies can be slow-rolled at two or three dice a turn for a year. Just because something can't be done in a turn doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. Tidal power is needed this turn, the railways can be done next turn.

Will we be able to pursue that without slamming into Nod?

That's the point. The military's in decent shape and wants to take the fight to NOD, instead of just constantly fighting off raids and letting NOD do what they want in their territory. Just two dice isn't aggressive enough to spook NOD either. If I was putting 10 dice on fortress towns that might scare the warlords enough for them to kick off Tib War 4, but this is relatively minor.

This lineup basically ignores the Air Force and does nothing to deploy any of the stuff we developed last turn. That is probably a mistake; we're gonna need Free dice on the military in quantity again this turn.

This is only a preliminary plan, I'll likely change the military dice in particular once I see the new options. But the RWS is years overdue and fixes a major flaw in one of our militaries mainstays. The new NOD fighters aren't in widespread deployment, the new missiles can wait one turn when this project has waited for years.

TheFourthman · Aug 12, 2021

BOTcommander said:
If we get Hover stuff to an acceptable level of sophistication, I expect something more along the lines of the Kodiak from the game that shall not be named to make a return.

Honestly. The grav ship idea is cool. But like that battleship is a waste. Be much better to pull a Starcraft Carrier for a drone bus, a helicarrier for aircraft or a BF: 2142 Titan for what amounts an airborne amphibious warfare ship.

Model DC.14F said:
Probably won't be for a while, considering that the Initiative still has two more phases planned after the current one, and each one requires another shell plant phase for defense.
I do wonder what the focus on the fourth and fifth expansions will be. The first two were ablative settlements placed in the near Yellow Zones, to defend the Blue Zones and allow defense in depth. The current one is costal, probably because oceanic shipping allows easier construction and supply.
Next will probably be along the overland supply lines and trades routes between Blue Zones, to allow for better logistics. However, I have no idea where the fifth phase will be located.

I hope we grab them eventually. Would love to see expansion for these settlements.

Ithillid said:
Pretty much. What I am looking at long term for GDI's air force is something of a high/low mix. For the high, I have Apollos and the (upcoming) Auroras as fighter and bomber platforms. On the low, there are the Firehawks and Orcas, both of which will continue to get updates. Both will become these increasingly multirole general purpose designs

Nice. Will the Aurora be something like the aircraft from Generals?

Dmol8 · Aug 12, 2021

Shard of Victory said:
We should take tea Kudzu sooh.

Agreed. We have had our military run without proper caffeine drinks long enough. We need the morale boost. Hey @Ithillid will we get a guarana option down the line?

KlavoHunter said:
I'm guessing the idea may be inspired by the Creeper World series, where a similar "anti-Creeper" substance is created to fight the blue goo threatening to destroy all life.

Doesn't feel very C&C-y to me.

Uh no the idea comes from the concept of hypertumors and the ant war. But good to know creeper world added that.

Simon_Jester said:
Fortress towns are an incredibly inefficient and bad way to get +Housing, because it's shitty housing and very expensive. If you want more housing specifically in Yellow Zones, there's a Yellow Zone Arcologies option that is better and cheaper in every way.

Housing is a side benefit. The main benefit is Yellow Zone territorial control. You also missed that point of my argument with this argument.

Simon_Jester said:
"GDI has carpeted the entirety of the Yellow Zones with fortress towns" is functionally equivalent to "GDI has conquered the world and Nod has been reduced to a weak remnant force hiding out in nigh-uninhabitable wilderness full of tiberium."

There's too much else that has to happen to make that possible. It's not... meaningful... to simply say "just do this," when that's the case. It's a bit like the mice voting to bell the cat.

So what? Just because it is exceedingly difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. Build up artillery shell plants first and then build up fortress towns as much as we can and then nail down the new territory gains while building up the military for a new push again.

Simon_Jester said:
I'm pretty sure we'd just get biophase tiberium creatures that frolick happily in the crystal fields and then periodically come out and attack us.

That, or they'd just go extinct again.

Look up at the links to my inspirations for a counterargument to this argument.

Blazblade · Aug 12, 2021

Ithillid said:
Pretty much. What I am looking at long term for GDI's air force is something of a high/low mix. For the high, I have Apollos and the (upcoming) Auroras as fighter and bomber platforms. On the low, there are the Firehawks and Orcas, both of which will continue to get updates. Both will become these increasingly multirole general purpose designs

Is there an option to make an A-10 type of aircraft or would that be superfluous with what we have available?

Ithillid · Aug 12, 2021

Dmol8 said:
Hey @Ithillid will we get a guarana option down the line?

It is part of the next wave of perennials projects.

TheFourthman said:
Nice. Will the Aurora be something like the aircraft from Generals?

Recontextualized into a Command and Conquer setting, but yes. High speed bomber designed to hit hard targets.

Blazblade said:
Is there an option to make an A-10 type of aircraft or would that be superfluous with what we have available?

Completely and utterly superfluous, and dangerous to boot. If you need CAS missions, the answers are missiles or glide bombs, not gun.

CyberFemme · Aug 12, 2021

Blazblade said:
Is there an option to make an A-10 type of aircraft or would that be superfluous with what we have available?

That's what Orcas are for.

I think a grav battleship is a good idea theough. It would absolutely be a paradigm shift for ground and air war due to being an unparalleled concentration of force like the dreadnaught that rendered previous battleships obsolete.

Doubtless it would be madly expensive, but we can deploy it as part of a high/low mix and use it as a spearhead.

TheFourthman · Aug 12, 2021

Blazblade said:
Is there an option to make an A-10 type of aircraft or would that be superfluous with what we have available?

I'm betting this is one of those options like the Specter style gunship. That requires total air superiority. Also well before laser weapons I'd have said GDI made the Orca to replace them. However, now that lasers, plasma and Ion cannons are possible? Make the spiritual successor to the A-10 makes a bit more sense. An airframe meant for survivability, with the largest possible energy weapon and a decent loiter time could make sense.

Blazblade · Aug 12, 2021

How about taking inspiration from mods of C&C3 for vehicles? Like Tiberium Apocalypse?

Simon_Jester · Aug 12, 2021

Mortis said:
The arcologies can be slow-rolled at two or three dice a turn for a year. Just because something can't be done in a turn doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. Tidal power is needed this turn, the railways can be done next turn.

The rail links are likely to be needed sooner than the arcologies, and should be started first. The extra dice we avoid spending on the rail links a turn or two from now because the phase is already finished can then be used to accelerate arcology construction. Works out better all around.

TheFourthman said:
Honestly. The grav ship idea is cool. But like that battleship is a waste. Be much better to pull a Starcraft Carrier for a drone bus, a helicarrier for aircraft or a BF: 2142 Titan for what amounts an airborne amphibious warfare ship.

The big problem with a drone bus platform is that everyone we're fighting has good point air defenses (so the drones will get attrited fast), and that communication is often difficult on the tiberium-poisoned Earth. If the drones aren't very autonomous, they won't be as effective, and if they are, you get CABAL fears.

A giant hover battleship is a singular, compact platform capable of defending itself and potentially of shrugging off most normal anti-aircraft weaponry. This can have advantages.

TheFourthman said:
I'm betting this is one of those options like the Specter style gunship. That requires total air superiority. Also well before laser weapons I'd have said GDI made the Orca to replace them. However, now that lasers, plasma and Ion cannons are possible? Make the spiritual successor to the A-10 makes a bit more sense. An airframe meant for survivability, with the largest possible energy weapon and a decent loiter time could make sense.

A well protected CAS aircraft with energy weapons means you basically have "the Tib War Two Banshee, but with more staying power." It's not an inviable target but it's an ambitious one.

TheFourthman · Aug 12, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
A well protected CAS aircraft with energy weapons means you basically have "the Tib War Two Banshee, but with more staying power." It's not an inviable target but it's an ambitious one

Yeah. As stated? An upgrade to weapons would be the only reason to consider another look really. Or defenses.

However, I think the GM is probably right about armaments not airframes being the solution to CAS at the moment. I think something like the future A10 is an airframe chasing a need rather then a need chasing an airframe.

Maybe like if the big walkers started popping up en masse or some other odd specialty unit that requires a lot of energy weapon but not enough to dial up arty or an ion canon. But then the question kind of comes why not just upgun an Orca or make a specialty tank.

Simon_Jester · Aug 12, 2021

I mean, the Orca is effectively a CAS aircraft, and is armed accordingly. The reason we get away with it* is that the vast majority of Nod's forces are militias with limited air defense networking that can't reliably stop Orcas from picking apart their forces.
_________________

*(and are contemplating basically just upgunning the thing and bolting on basic air-to-air Sidewinder equivalents so it can sort of defend itself, not a full replacement)

HousePet · Aug 12, 2021

@Ithillid, Important question: Are the dinosaur or ant missions canon in this quest?

SheepGang · Aug 12, 2021

Does the current fusion project overflow into more projects? If so that would be a great idea for a meme plan, just throw like 5 dice on it and start drowning in energy!

Lightwhispers · Aug 12, 2021

SheepGang said:
Does the current fusion project overflow into more projects? If so that would be a great idea for a meme plan, just throw like 5 dice on it and start drowning in energy!

No. If it did, it would have been labeled as such.

DecaffeinatedOwl · Aug 12, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
I mean, the Orca is effectively a CAS aircraft, and is armed accordingly. The reason we get away with it* is that the vast majority of Nod's forces are militias with limited air defense networking that can't reliably stop Orcas from picking apart their forces.

You know what else might be saving the Orca?

Stealth.

In that, with the battlefield saturated with stealth aircraft and ion storms, the sorts of long range SAMs or AAMs that would be munching CAS aircraft aren't worth it, because the sensor environment is so hostile that BVR radar might as well not exist.

Which means that non-stealthy aircraft can get along with only being bothered by those short to medium range SAMs/AAMs that can reliably acquire stealth aircraft.

SheepGang said:
Does the current fusion project overflow into more projects? If so that would be a great idea for a meme plan, just throw like 5 dice on it and start drowning in energy!

Nope.

Yeah, we were disappointed too.

Ithillid · Aug 12, 2021

HousePet said:
@Ithillid, Important question: Are the dinosaur or ant missions canon in this quest?

I don't think so.

As for the fusion thing, they are intentionally split up so you can't do that. Because I don't want you taking half of your budget one or two turns, flinging it at Fusion, and cracking your way all the way to universal deployment in six months. That feels wrong.

SheepGang · Aug 13, 2021

Ithillid said:
Because I don't want you taking half of your budget one or two turns, flinging it at Fusion, and cracking your way all the way to universal deployment in six months.

Well shit he caught us boys, back to the drawing board.

Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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